False Capture
Why do you think a gulf exists between us penguins and the Nigels
Yours is exactly the philosophy that creates the mis-trust around the airline.
A crass few impacted on the vast majority tho care about having a strong profitable BA - if only to pay the mortgage and bills .
Get in the real world

Hmmm...

I like the sound of timing a strike to coincide with the World Cup. Good PR stunt.

The thing is, it wouldn't really have any effect:

The airline will be shut down anyway over that period by the drivers / baggage handlers and CCrew taking sickies.

Oooooh hush my foul mouth!

Retirement age proposed at 60-65 today.....70 in ten years in line with increased life expectancy/ improved health etc? It seems that WW will get his way, ie work his frontline "hounds" into the ground while pulling the chains.

work at 60?
 

:\
No way BA...
sorry but iam not working up to 60!!!!
I will have to get that tesco job aT 55 :p

scotsflyingboy: having worked at tesco in the past I can guarantee you would soon be wishing you could spend you last 5 working years at BA instead.

most people at 55 who retire these days are quickly bored and enjoy being back at work. given that people are going to live till they are 80 on average very few people want to spend 25 years doing nothing

remember - you quickly become senile when you're bored and stop using your brain.

Perhaps this document formed the basis of the extended retirement age...

From "New Scientist" i believe...

"After conductive research into the age death rate of longhaul pilots, it was said that if a longhaul pilot retires at 55, he/she on average will have approximately 17 years to live. If that same pilot retires at 65, this is considerable reduced to 18 months."

:eek: :mad:

This indeed would solve pension problems.

Having read the Times online tonight, that BA staff (Excluding Pilots) will have to work another 10 years to preserve their Pension, I tried to put myself in their position. They have worked for BA for years, brought it up to the worlds most profitable airline, and then get the spear by being told "Sorry Chum...another ten years for you" The House in Spain and the easy life, to do all the things you couldn't do 'cos you were working all the shift patterns devised. Can you imagine the sick feeling in your stomach and the despair.?? I am a BA Pensioner, so it shouldn't affect me (I HOPE.!!) but if I were still there today, I would definitely be out there on the picket line. The airline would have brought me and my family to our knees. Why shouldn't I help to do that to BA.?? I have NEVER felt like that even during the darker days, and I have never gone on strike, but putting myself in the shoes of people affected, I have to say this would be one almighty justified action and a David and Goliath confrontation with slick Willie.
What will be next.?? Staff Travel.?? Almost certainly. and that WOULD affect me.! :mad:

Well put Taildragger, but it's only the restrictions on overflights with a commander older than 60 thats holding BA back from making pilots work to 65 too. As soon as that restriction is lifted, and I believe it will be, we'd be working to 65 too if BA had their way! An extra 10 years at the asylum that is LHR? I don't think so.:mad:

I wonder how the guys in their early 50s are feeling right now.

And how are the guys at 60 feeling?

I have been employed by 7 companys in my 15 years out of the military and have yet to write a letter of rsignation.

If I am to avoid self stacking I need to work for as long my licence allows - so the french aand spanish are not my favoured nations.

All of us have been expecting to live a 1990s span on a 1940's saving rate. You guys at BA are unforntuante that the 'cat has come home on your watch'.

Best you can do is to press for crystalisation and accept your fate.

That or stop blustering and lnock off work.

Actuarial estimates are closely guarded figures, for obvious reasons. BUT, guestimates (and that's all they are) are that pilots who retire at 55 live to an average of 78. Pilots who retire at 60 live to an average of 74 and the pension hole virtually disappears , only 14 years of payouts as against 23. So if you work until 65 and the average age of shuffling off this mortal coil is then lowered even further to say, 72, then the pension fund will be overflowing.
It is in the company interest to get you to work as long as possible as their liability to you in pension payouts decreases expotentially.

Ba pilots 'prepared to strike'
 

What a load of C+++P. Most BA pilots retire at 55 and then continue in another Company for 5-10 years. I 'retired' at 60 and continued to fly to 65. i finally retired cos I had had enough and didn't want to go onto I structing at a flying club. IT IS A PERSONNEL DECISION.:ok:

Renrut ,

Congratulations should be dead any day now :ugh:

Go on strike, kill the company and lose the pension. Smart thinking - passengers will be comforted to know that they are being flown by pilots with kamakazi tendencies

Sudden Twang
 

I am 70 now so possibly been dead for three years. It's good up here.:E

Real Pilots never retire !

Bus driving Nigels might.

If you want to fly beyond 55, feel free. I'll never criticise someone who makes that CHOICE. I will not be forced to do so.

My guess is WW would be forced out by the City before BA goes under anyway.

Renrut its the fact thats it has become a personnel issue that is the problem. If it was my (ie personal) issue I wouldn't mind.

52 the pedant (to be seen on a picket line near you soon).

Chrisbl ..... So the answer is that you should take ANYTHING that slick willie throws at you.? :yuk:

Sorry guys the world is different now towhen you went to Hamble. I started late and at 54 need to work to 65 if I can. From the sounds of it I don't wantto work at LHR or LGW. I could not get past page 1 on the application form (>49 yrs) which may well be a blessing. My job pays OK and I am not in an office or on a motorway or stacking shelves.

Each one of you needs to look outside and see how well off you are. Cut your cloth, reduce your hours, decide who is paid to ensure the future of the company (via the stisfied shareholders) and who is paid to fly the aeroplanes, manage thecabin, paythe wages. etc. You can apply for those jobs as they become vacant. Do them for 10 years and see how you feel: my guess is you wouldnot last 10 years pr you wouldbe there already.

No more job for life, live with the chznges, make the most of it or not. DO you have the right to mess with the travellers lives, mostof them risking more lifestyle changes everyday than you? Think of your wedding anniversary venue, son's graduation, golf club christmas bash, daughter's first-born - whathappens if the staff at any one of those locations closed up shopon your day on a pay dispute? You would understand, wouldn't you? You would be very happy thatthay were making their point in such a way.... But then, you live in France anyway.

Go on, strike.

Hansoff. Nothing you have said bears any relation to the main point, which is that BA CAN AFFORD TO PAY the pension deficit (they've 'found' £500m already) but instead they expect us to vary our contracts, accept a vastly reduced pension and fund their deficit for them.
In fact your post, laced with jealousy, vitriol and envy, says a lot more about you than you may have realised.
If you're having difficulty understanding our argument with the company, and the nature of contractual obligations, have a look at
this link which should help you to understand.
I'm sure the travellling public will get plenty of warning of industrial action, we are not baggage loaders :hmm:
Your title is useful though, "Hansoff our pensions" is our motto!
All the best,
Overstress

Should anyone be in any doubt as to the strength of feeling of BA pilots over the company proposals, there are some quotes lifted straight from the BALPA BA forum here:

http://www.befairba.org/commyour.html

People should be in no doubt as to the anger of BA pilots over this issue. If WW allows this to get to the industrial action stage, the City will have his head on a platter.

PS: To all: I started this thread to draw attention to the befairba.org website - please consider looking at it before posting vitriolic anti-BA nonsense here.

Particularly, look at http://www.befairba.org/commnews.html which will help the non-professional pilot gain a rounder picture. If BA T's & C's are cut, this will put pressure on the whole UK industry.

Well I say good luck....
 

If I allow myself to start I will never get to bed tonight.
I am heartened to hear there are so many BA colleagues who are passionate about their T & C's and are willing to stand up for their rights.:) As someone who can a feel their pension disappearing into the quicksand of WW's plans along side her job in terminal 5 (soon to be replaced by a programmable machine) I really hope we get a better deal.
I do not have half as much to lose, to be honest my BA pension forecast is
rather rubbish, but it is still my rubbish that I work hard for and signed up to when I joined 9 years ago.:mad:
I am tired of being told that I should be grateful for a job and say goodbye to everything else. :*
Those of you who watch from the sidelines might consider how hard it is to deliver service with a smile :O 24 hours a day whilst a mad man is running around behind your back smashing up your work life with his giant anti- union and anti-employee sledgehammer.
Pensions could and should be seen as a way to attract and retain excellent calibre staff.
Not whilst Willie Wonka is around that is for sure.....

We're not all pilots you know!!
 

Have to say that I agree with Renbabe..Well said!

I have nearly 30 years with the company and have done everything they have asked me to do without complaint!

But now they are putting me in a position that is totally unacceptable. For all the poor excuses that have been published, all of the twisted statistics and all the false promises, I am still proud to work for this once great company.

BUT

I and many of my Colleagues in Engineering and I am sure other departments will not stand for this. You dont't have to be a Pilot to feel anger at the situation. This affects so many of us throughout the airline.

Does the airline truly believe that we have been taken in with all their "You're paying for the pilots to retire on more than your salary" rubbish? Please give us credit for some intelligence!

This affects all of us equally. Its time to take a stand.

PLM

"You're paying for the pilots to retire on more than your salary"

Surely we're all paying in a percentage of our salary so we won't be paying any more or less than we have to to secure our pension. The way the company produces so much b*ll and asks us to eat it...forget the pensions I'm sick of being treated like somebody with the same intelligence as our management.

After many years working for BA the time, a job I've loved, the time has come to make a moral stand. I'm in APS but incensed at the arrogance of the company over this NAPS farce. BA can afford to pay and therefore must pay the debt it OWES it's empoyees.

It is a fairly open secret that there will be a strike. This issue appears to have 100% support.

If you really need to get to your destination then I personally wouldn't be flying BA over this summer and autumn.

Times change, you have been given a good offer, accept it and get on with the job. How much sympathy do you think you will get if you strike over being asked to work until 60? Many of you intend to work over 55 anyway. I well remember a ex BA DEC taking my command years ago and then telling me how his pension was more than the salary he was then getting in the DEC job. If you strike then I'll have your job off you before you know it and then where will your prospects be?

I did, which is why I don't want it changed.

I don't need sympathy. I need what was promised to me when I joined.

Many of us don't.

So join a decent union and improve your terms and conditions, or get another job.

My prospects will be fine, thanks. It just starts me wondering why you aren't here already if you think it's that good.

Overstress:
- If my post was vitriol I apologise.
- I am seriously not jealous: I made some decisions when younger that hindsight shows could have been made differently. The man at Royal Insurance on my 18th birthday showed me pictures of his yacht in the Med and told me I could have the same, at his age, if I joined them. I didn't. I eventually changed career and now no longer have this burning desire to do something else (ie fly aeroplanes).
- Envy: It might be nice to have pots of gold in reserve but I don't need or want a Bentley, 10 bedrooms, pools, electric gates etc. Some of my friends have and it is fun, for a while.

" Nothing you have said bears any relation to the main point, which is that BA CAN AFFORD TO PAY the pension deficit (they've 'found' £500m already) but instead they expect us to vary our contracts, accept a vastly reduced pension and fund their deficit for them."

The MAIN POINT is that those in charge of BA run it for the benefit of those who OWN it. They may be able to afford to pay but don't want to. They may want to make BA look like a good bet on the international investors' stage (that impresses the owners, doesn't it?) and one way is to adopt strategies that other companies have shown to work in today's market. And change them to make them work better.

I don't happen to agree with the latest dogma that suggests upsetting people gets the best out of them. By offering to share the burden of change surely BA is doing a lot more than other companies who have simply closed down their expensive pension schemes, often after the horse had bolted.

BALPA's team may be high-powered but how many of these schemes have they managed to get companies to retain? Of course, if they win this one in the short term there is enormous kudos - think of their own CVs !

I do agree with BALPA :" We see it as our job to challenge; to test the assumptions; to accept nothing at face value. And then, and only then, might it be time to talk." Not strike, surely?

Contractual obligations can be varied and at a cost - BA is accepting a cost. It is called renegotiation.

While it would be fantastic if promises made many years ago were honoured absolutely, many family lawyers would be on the breadline. Be serious.

"Pensions are your future, your family’s future, and a promise from the Company. Support your union, protect your pension and your family and let us ensure BA fulfils its promise."

Having dealt with the bits of the first sentence (as you and your family's future depends on the OWNERS of BA enjoying the benfits of OWNING a successful, money-making concern) - why is the underlined phrase first in the second sentence? Surely the most important bit should be FIRST - 'Protect your family's future, your job, your pension etc'. Supporting your union is one of the ways of trying to do this. Does this slogan show BALPA's real priority?


"I'm sure the travellling public will get plenty of warning of industrial action, we are not baggage loaders" .. oh dear. Apart from anything else this says, don't forget you are contracted to fly people who may have made very, very big plans months ago and chose to honour BA to with their custom and booked in advance to do so. BA depend on this goodwill and advance bookings to plan, to cost, to roster, to recruit etc. Your position in BA also depends on BA's ability to do this well.


Overstress, you are right to be upset. I was upset 15 years ago when the directors of the best company I had ever worked for, and with whom I played squash, socialised, helped out etc. made me redundant. Overnight. But it had to come as the market changed.

Don't pretend it is a global issue and risk upsetting the global passengers and their lives.

I hope it all works out for you.

Fly747
 

Oh dear, I hear the sound of a chip detector going off. Whilst I agree some of the older guys retiring from BA couldn't resist a chance to complain about their gold plated pension, they were on the old scheme (APS). But we are talking about the "newer", less lucrative NAPS here and this offer from BA is a crock of poo.

As for your sympathy - why would I want your sympathy? And if you think you are having my job you are sadly deluded.

Hansof,

Thanks for your kind words. I have a couple of points to add though.

This is the whole crux of the problem. BA made a contract with us when we joined. Now they're trying to wriggle out of it to enhance their profits and pay bonuses to the directors.

BA are already the most profitable airline in the world. The next set of results are likely to be close to our all time record. That ought to impress the investors and make the company look like a good bet.

Dumping pension responsibilities is a great strategy for a company to make money at the expense of it's employees, as Chapter 11 has proved. Fortunately, we're still able to make money and have enough to pay the pension (how do you suddenly whisk £500 million out of thin air by the way?) despite the US engaging in these anti-competitive and cruel practices.

Incidentally, I'd quite like a reasonable length retirement. Statistically, if I retire at 55, I'll live to 78. If I retire at 65 as is proposed, I'll live to 74. Now do things become a little clearer?

How in the hell can you say it’s a good offer? I work for them and I’ve taken 24hrs to wade through it using my own circumstances, and it sure as hell is not a good offer at all.


What you mean is ‘Tough cheese BA, you had it coming. Sod the lot of you’. Your warmth is touching.


For obvious reasons I don’t imagine that BA Pilots are going to win public hearts and minds over this, because a short trawl through even our own industry reveals that everybody hates pilots anyway. (Curious really, as they are quite happy to entrust their lives and the lives of their loved ones to us – with good reason)


The only people who are going to look after our own financial futures are ourselves. This proposal is FORCING us to work to the age of 65 (Oh, and by the way, it will be 65 wrt recent ICAO acceptance this week) and then short changing us to the tune of about £250,000 each for the case of the average 24 yr pilot.


They dress this sham up as a £500m cash injection, and all the small people, those loyal foot soldiers, the naïve trolley dollies, see a quick fix which sounds good. Only BA, and the more savvy, realise the Trojan Horse this joke is. It is a confidence trick, conning old ladies out of their life savings. Preying on the innocent and ignorant for their own gratuitous avarice.


I would rather see BA fail than to have these bastards succeed.

http://www.theanimationartgallery.co...l/cel12117.jpg
I’ll take on the opposition anyday. It’s my management I can’t beat!

I don't think BA crews will have either the public or other departments on their side, if things get sticky. Every summer for the last few years the public have come to expect some sort of BA staff strike. Considering most UK companies are downsizing their pensions I cannot see people saying flight and cabin crews deserve to get what they demand. I would go as far as saying Jo public will look unfavourably at crew greed.

Yes, it is an emotive subject, but I am still shocked at how the crew community fail to see how the aviation working world has changed and that things will get even tougher for them in order for their airline to stay afloat.

Everyone seems to be under the impression that BA is inches away from bankruptcy. It isn't. I would venture that we're in rude health considering the unfair competition we have to put up with from state subsidised dinosaurs on each side of the Atlantic (I count Ch.11 as an unfair state subsidy). Wait for the next set of figures. Survival of the fittest applies as much to business as to life and BA is further up the pile than most, if not all. ;)

Out of interest, if the flight and cabin crews do not accept the proposal will WW just accept it and forget? No, he'll put forward something else. Ultimately crews will have to accept something surely.

BA is doing well, BUT only if you do not include the out-of-control pension deficit! Swept under the carpet, it's a bed of roses. BA has realised that it has been paying its employees too much for too long = (in part) this mess now.

Indeed, the shares wouldn't be at 350p or so if there was the faintest whiff of bankruptcy or administration.

Taildragger, the probelm with pensions was created long before WW joined BA.

In part the pensions problem occurred following the legislation dealing with the Robert Maxwell scandal.

This was made worse by the governments policies to raid pensions fund which at a stroke put them into trouble. Money which should have gone into pension funds went to fund the governments policies.

Recent changes in the way pensions funds are valued and the requirement to have pension funds invest in gilt edged securities means that the probelm has got even worse.

I know as I am a fund trustee. Until this year ago our pension scheme was "fully funded" under the post Maxwell legislation. Following the new method using life expectancy the calculation says we are only 72% funded.

As the pension scheme is closed to new employees already there are only a couple of options.
Ask the employer to put £1m in to top up the fund. (As a membership organisation and charity this is not possible without asking the members of the organisation to cough up some money)

Strike a deal with the pension fund members to determine the value of the fund and shut it down. This takes out any future risk of the fund losing value because of either poor stock market performance or even worse a rise in interest rates and therefore a hammering on the gilt edged securities.

The recently introduced accounting rules requires that companies declare on their balance sheets the new pensions liability. For us that means a £1m liability which appeared overnight and is a matter of opinion.

For BA it means £1b. Taking £1b out of BAs profits to stuff the pension fund has two effects. First it takes away money for investments. Secondly it removes money for the shareholder in BA who surprise surprise are mainly pension funds in one way or another. My pension fund is invested in BA amongst others.

All pension funds are in the same boat. As all the companies start declaring their newly enlarged pension deficits, the value of their shares goes down and hey, the deficits on the pension funds gets bigger. Since 1997 pensions have been slaughtered. Personally I dont think it will get any better unless there is a radical change of policy by the government, even better a change of government.

In the scheme of things the BA staff are in a reasonable position compared with others in that they are likely to be able to work those extra years.

I am associated with the construction industry and there are many people who have the same pension issues who just cannot work until 60 let alone 65 having done a very phyiscal job for the last 40 years. Their bodies are literally worn out. But not to worry, they are not as precious as pilots so do not matter as much.

Everybody is in the same position, for most of us, that is employers, pension trustees and employers, the only way forward is a compromise ad the only way to ensure that pension funds are able to cover their liabilities is if the companies behind them are in business to fund them.

If the BA staff were to go on strike, wreak the company and put their pensions at risk, then it would be unfair to expect the rest of us to pick up the tab and bale their pension fund out. There would be no public sympathy at all.

Just be thankful that we are not in the US where the airline goes into Chapter 11, it dumps the pension fund and relieves itself of all the costs. There are a few pilots over there seeing their pensions disappear faster than a rat up a drainpipe.

The choice for the BA staff and all people in these sorts of pension funds is to decide whether they are to add to the problem or be part of solving the problem.

It will be interesting to see what happens, personally I hope that there is no strike, BA becomes a very efficient and profitable business, is able to keep on topping up its pension funds but more importantly remits enough dividends or the company is valued so high so that my pension fund gets its reward for investing in BA.

COBBLERS!

Out of control my @rse!!

You have swallowed the lot hook, line and sinker.

If I am being paid far too much then I'm a dutchman. :uhoh:

BA is doing well. (period, full stop, nuff said).:mad:

They will not be taking my future earnings to line the pockets of shareholders who should have bought equities in oil not airlines. :{

Crazy, ins't it?

Some of you employ gardners to make their gardens nice for when they are home. Some of you tell those gardners what to do, others let them get on with it, querying the odd bill to show interest and avoid being taken for granted. Some of you leave the gardners completely alone and are mostly lucky. Some gardners take you for a ride.

A good gardner will listen to all the nonsense (if there is any) do his best for the garden and get on well with the family who play in his garden. In a lot of cases he will tell those who know better than he does to stop flying aeroplanes and do the garden. He will then spend more time with those who appreciate his knowledge and forget the hassle.

After a while all the (good) gardners will avoid doing the gardens of those who know more than they do unless they pay an awfull lot of money to encourage them to put up with the nonsense.

Whose families have the best gardens - to enjoy, for their children and grandchildren to enjoy?

Try to get the best deal but don't set fire to the acres you want to play in. There are a lot of people out there who know an awful lot more than you, and whose jobs depend on it.

Can't be bothered to post anymore.