HZ123 Yes, exactly so. I quoted that the govt had rejected this report which is, in any case, only advisory. My intention was to highlight that the subject is well within the public view. There is no doubt that the govt will do nothing (even though they are part of the problem!) but with the subject being aired by so many groups, the BA pilots do not have to start informing the public - only increase that information.

I think the whole pension situation, not just the pensions at BA need to be highlighted. Other companies have pension schemes too and face the same problems, I don't think the responsibility for this lies solely with BA management.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4814608.stm

BA pension issue update
 

WW will make an official announcement at the end of March, but the press are reporting that BA staff know that he gives them 2 options:- a) pay in significantly more or b) lose privileges and change work practices to accommodate savings. Which will it be?

Rumour has it that NRA to be raised to 58, (obviously if one wanted to you could work beyond this after oct 2006) and staff contributions to rise by 50% the former does not bother the latter does, but hey in evey negotiations you got to start somewhere.

Well DA Dog....It bothers me..my contract says that BA will pay me a final salary pension at PP23 when I retire at 55 years of age. I have paid my share of the pension contributions and accepted a lower than market salary for the 17 years that I worked for B.A. I'm afraid that they can't have it both ways.

The senior managers have known what the options have been for a week now. Another meeting has been held today to find out what they thought of them after mulling them over.

Apparently lots of things that employees have said have been taken into consideration, so many of the extreme solutions are not in the final options.

Sounds to me like you guys are already getting the jist of it from somewhere.

Interesting to note the BAE shares went up 25% after announcing they sorted out their pension problems.

They can announce what they like, they haven't consulted their airframe drivers yet ;-)

BA salaries lower than market rates? Er, I don't think so. On one hand, they pay better than many, so one can't winge too hard. And secondly, if they offer a sum of money and people accept it then that is the market rate. Think about it...

Given the financial deal included the pension that was market rate. If they reduce the pension the overall package must therefore have dipped below that market rate.

Two different things. Change in pension is a change in your terms, rightly or wrongly, and what this debate is about.

But in the first instance, one worked for a given amount of money and benefits. That was market rate. One can't say, after 17 years, that it was below market rate.

Sugden This is where I'll have to disagree with you...BA pilots were paid less than the market rate for years. with the promise that we would retire on a half decent pension. It is only since we incorporated box payments, etc into Basic Pay that jumior long haul Captains now take home more money than some long haul Pursers and CSD's. I'm sure Rainboe will wade in here...:hmm: Flight Ops management has accepted this status quo with comments such as " ahh, but you pilots will retire on a half decent package....well, it's swings and roundabouts....you guys lose on the salary, but gain on the pension" . I'm afraid that if that is the case, then I want the last 17 yrs of my back pay at competitors rates. We'll discount the Americans as they were slightly overpaid. I'll accept a basket of Air France and Iberia pilots salaries. Or put it another way, if the company can see fit to pay some CC 3500 quid a monmth, then as F/O on a Jumbo I reckon I would have been worth 6000 or 7000 quid a month. Better think again on issuing those bonds B.A, i reckon you could owe a lot of pilots , a lot of money in back pay. Alternatively, pay some of the near 2 Billion in cash that you are sitting on into the pension fund and then everyone is happy.

maxy101, I think we're locked in an argument over semantics regarding what "market rate" means. My final word on it; the salary plus benefits (including expected pension) was the market rate. If it wasn't, no-one would have gone for it. So I don't think that for 17 years you had worked below market rate. I can agree with the assertion, however, that a change in the expectation of your pension on retirement changes the overall equation, thus taking you below general market rates and below what you would have voluntarily worked for. So while you HAD not worked at below market rates, you may find, following possible actions from your employer, that you HAVE worked below market rates... if that makes sense. I started this sideshow on the meaning of words and apologise if I've dragged the debate into the sidings. (And yes, I do need to get out more.)

Back to the question of possible actions. I said earlier in the thread that the BA pilots have my sympathies. That said, I urged a level headed response. That's the best way to maximise the benefits for yourselves. BigBrutha, I know it's an emotive and charged issue, but you would not rather BA went under, despite what your anger may tell you. You'll be worse off. I'm not saying bend over and take what's being given without protest. I guess I am just saying that revenge is a dish best served cold.

And going back up the thread to the post by Paxboy, the government saying it's not repsonsible for corporate pension schemes. They are responsible. They removed the pension exemption on advanced corporation tax on dividends a few years ago. This means that dividend cashflows into the pension funds are now subject to tax at 20% where previously they were exempt from tax. Pension funds pay the pensioners with the dividend flows. Suddenly they're getting 20% less and the actuaries are telling them they're under funded. I think the government, master Brown in particular, are substantially responsible for the current pension mess. They should not be allowed to wash their hands of it so easily, but I guess that's a debate for another forum...

BALPA to go it alone???
 

Just heard a rumour that BALPA and BA have been in negotiations for the pilots only. Looks like the pilots will be ok and rest of us will be pensionless by this time next year!

PLM

Err - who did you want BALPA to be in negotiations for??

Flap62

You just beat me to it!

More of a dig at the employer than BALPA ant the pilots. Green with envy, I am!! :}

(SH)amicus has been very quiet. :bored:

PLM

No negotiations have taken place between BALPA and BA, and lets just say I am in the know.

All will be revealed thursday.

So hold onto your hats, and get your flasks out. It will be cold on that picket line.:eek:

Just a a side thought.

If say the majority of the pilot community at BA vote for a change in pension (i.e. different to the one you have now and one approved by BALPA), what will those of you do who are expressly opposed to ANY change going to do?

Leave BALPA? Leave BA? Just go along with it and accept defeat?

Just interested that's all. As this is all going to come to head in a few days and I'm sure that many must have considered this option, as well as would you be standing outside Waterside around a burning oil drum.

Does anyone think there is any link between the recent rise in the share price and any done deal on the pension ?:confused:

How can there be a "done deal" on the pension when it hasn't even been discussed yet?

Nooooo!

Do you think so?

That's why I've bought 5K worth recently!

Just a coincidence mind you.......;)

£3.62 and climbing.

William Hill wouldn't give me odds on you guys not striking so this was the next best thing.

Paying you LGW pursers too much money eh WLITS:D ;)

Sugden

Erm when I did economics the market rate was related to supply and demand in a free market economy .

The pilot supply market is not a free market economy therefore the term market rate is inappropriate .

I cannot leave my employer as a senior LH Trng Capt and start with another UK employer without becoming a very junior in fact the most junior F/O .

Now the seniority system has advantages and diadvantages for .... oh I give up .:cool: off to skype the stdss I flew with recently .

Clearly Dog! That's why LHR crew are all so desperate to transfer to EFLGW!:sad: lol!

No. Just a small trade this time. Obviously, this COULD be risky.:E

And I certainly wouldn't rely on BA to fund my retirement.:yuk:

Put my eggs in other baskets a long time ago.

But hey as Tesco like to say "Every little helps":ok:

Hope life is treating you well buddy.

Well, I've never heard it called that before, but well done anyway! ;)

Sadly I sold my shares at the beginning of the company's pension spin campaign figuring it would all end in tears. It certainly seems as if BALPA's anti-spin campaign may have softened the company's opening salvo a little.

Don't think I'll go buying the shares back just yet though.

From the Press Association this morning.

BA TO INCREASE RETIREMENT AGE
By Alan Jones, PA Industrial Correspondent
British Airways is to increase the retirement age for its pilots and other
workers in a bid to tackle a #1 billion deficit in its pension fund, the airline
announced today.
Union leaders were told that the airline will pay #500 million into the scheme
once the planned changes were accepted.
The current compulsory retirement age for pilots and cabin crew is 55 but BA
plans to increase this to 60.
Chief Executive Willie Walsh said: "This is a solution that will provide
competitive, affordable pensions for the future."

And more...



Mr Walsh said: "These changes are necessary to clear the past deficit and to
contain the amount of future funding needed.
"It means working longer to get a similar annual pension but one that is more
secure.
"This should address the pension problem at British Airways once and for
all."
Mr Walsh said the planned changes will reduce the anticipated deficit in the
pension scheme by #450 million.
"This package of measures is vital if we are to achieve a competitive cost
base, deliver a 10% operating margin, be fit for growth and invest in our
future."
The Transport & General Workers Union, which has 20,000 members at BA, said
the pension rescue plans would mean "more pain" for the workforce.
National officer Brendan Gold said he believed the package of measures could
have been brought forward some time ago to give unions more time to study the
details.
He said injecting #500 million into the scheme only on condition that staff
accept the changes was an "unnecessary touch".
He went on: "If the money was there it should be put in up front to show the
company recognised its responsibilities properly.
"It was no secret that BA's pension funds were in deficit but we still don't
really know if today's measures will be the right ones for our members and for
the scheme."

ba pension scheme sorted???
 

bbc news 0830z ba to honour pension scheme, but all pilots to work to sixty. :{

From the BA Intranet:

British Airways has unveiled a proposal to clear the near £1 billion past deficit in the New Airways Pension Scheme (NAPS).

The airline has retained a final salary scheme and is proposing that staff work longer with slower pension growth and pensionable pay elements of future pay rises capped at inflation.

The airline says that if the proposals are accepted, it will make a payment of half a billion pounds into NAPS, which together with £350 million it will have paid by the end of the year, will clear the past deficit.

Chief executive Willie Walsh said: "This a shared solution that tackles the deficit while keeping many of the things that people have told us they value in their pension.

"We are not proposing any increase in staff contributions and the pension that people have already earned will be protected.

"The changes to members' future benefits will reduce the anticipated deficit by £450 million. We will also be able to make contributions for future service we can afford.

"This package of measures is vital if we are to achieve a competitive cost base, deliver a 10 per cent operating margin, be fit for growth and invest in our future."

The proposed changes for future service are:

· Working longer
· Slower accrual (the speed at which a pension builds up)
· Inflation capped pensionable pay awards
· Reduced pension growth on retirement
· Shared impact of changes in life expectancy

Chief financial officer Keith Williams said: "When we set out to raise awareness of the deficit in the past few months, people told us they were concerned about the security of their pensions and that a shared solution was the right way forward.

"Our staff also said they wanted to keep a final salary scheme, pay the same amount each month into their pension and protect the pension they've already earned.

"Our proposal sets out to do all these things. We are keeping a final salary scheme while some other companies have abandoned theirs. We're also protecting current pensions with the changes only relevant to future service. And the amount people pay each month won't go up, unless they want it to."

There is a future provision that if people were to live longer than the current expectation, the pension costs would be shared.

The airline is putting forward one proposal but there is still choice available. Employees can choose to retire without working longer and take a smaller pension, save more money towards their pension outside NAPS or move to the airline's defined contribution pension.

The trade unions will be consulted on the changes and the airline will seek agreement from the pension trustees. For detailed information on the proposals, see the special in-depth site on the intranet.

Story now on BBC News Online:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4836054.stm
----------------------------------------
BA set to raise staff pension age

British Airways has proposed to raise the retirement age for some of its workers in a bid to close a £1bn black hole in its pension scheme.
Under the proposals, the compulsory retirement age for pilots and cabin crew will rise to 60 from 55.

Willie Walsh, BA chief executive said the change "will provide competitive, affordable pensions for the future".

The airline pledged to pay an extra £500m into the pension scheme once the changes have come into force.

More soon.
----------------------------------------

Jordan

Am I missing something here??

Isn't the issue here that BA have promised to pay their staff X amount when they hit retirement age, I the case of most posting here I guess 55, but now it looks like they're moving the goal posts and arent going to deliver for whatever reason, so could it be argued they are in breech of the original contracts these guys signed?

I think the bitching about whether or not certain groups within BA have been paid the market rate, above the market rate or a some have made it known they feel they have been under paid, is a bit of a red herring.

Most of you probably signed up because BA offered a good pension scheme and promised to deliver a decent package on retirement, in my opinion that is part of the salary, the Ts and Cs for staying long term with the company so in changing the rules to keep the bean counters happy BA have welched on a deal.

Not so sure I hold with the "would rather see BA go under" than accept the new terms, sure it's your pay so worth fighting for bt if BA goes under as a result of action surely you will all lose out?

Theyve at least grasped the nettle, BA that is. If people have to work to 60 or 65 welcome to the reality of life in this century.

Pity the government didnt do the same when it had the opportunity recently to do the same.

My first post so be kind, please?!

Finally the BA retirees can stop poisoning the outside pilot market by working into retirement for beer money. I hope it comes into effect very soon.

Well the city like it.

£3.78 and climbing!:eek:

"Beware of Greeks bearing gifts"
 

Willie has a plan to recruit experienced type-rated pilots - keep the ones he has.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4836054.stm

Its so nice to be right for a change!

All through the 90s some of us campaigned for a negotiated increase in the NRA from 55 to 60. BALPA and certain younger elements in the pilot workforce ignored the facts! Now it looks like it will be imposed by the Company with their terms and conditions.

It seems very strange to me that you should now be considering strike action over a situation thet has been apparent to many for a long time. I wish you well with your negotiations but there are a lot more people a lot worse off than those still working for BA.


Now retire to the bunker with my flack jacket and a copy of pensioners news!!

Sooooooooooooooooo.................

Its gone from a £1.4 Billion deficit to a £850 million one. :)

Arent our management clever. :}

What else were they not telling the truth about??

PLM

It's not a matter of what age BA pilots should retire at ie. 55, 60 or 65.

Simply fact is: at the moment we retire at 55, changing our retirement age amounts to changing our terms and conditions. I'm sure many of us would accept this change for an increase in basic pay.

Why should we sacrifice our terms and conditions (ie. working for another 5 years) for the baggage handlers and check-in staff who have let us down during the last two summers with illegal strikes.

It would be a real shame if the "Official Airline England Football Team" was grounded during this summer's World Cup because of industrial action.

Willie reckons you're not up for a fight
 

This has little to do with either the pension defecit or NRA. It has all to do with divide and conquer.

A new joiner would be very grateful to get an extra 5 years paid into his/her non NAPS defined contribution scheme.

Very simple solution, get Willie to pay command compensation to each co-pilot just below the command point on the seniority list for every guy that stays on past 55.

If it's 500 then pay 500 SFO's full Captains Salary & all benefits associated with command.

How's the Mondeo Willie?

No. Its still a 1.4 bill deficit under the current t&cs. Becomes an £850 mill deficit if the t&cs are changed (you work longer, therefore less pension to pay if average life expectancy remains as is).