What makes you think the regulators would be forced to step in? - BA is a private company and any industrial dispute is between the company and its staff - what the regulators think doesn't come into it.

You don't say! :rolleyes:

The numbers BA are talking about are within a whisker of what BALPA are trying to achieve, whilst at the same time getting a much fairer solution for the staff, the pilots in particular. Why won't BA accept BALPA's solution? Because they're arrogant and it will prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that they've been lying all along. Hopefully they will see sense before their hand needs to be forced.

Jet II,

I suggest you visit the pensions regulator website to find out what his sweeping powers are, then you will soon realise "whats it to do with him".
I believe it is thepensionsregulator.co.uk

I am not BA but I have been through the same process and had my final salary pension raped and pillaged by the management of Spotty M, unfortunately the advice from Big Balpa was to accept this, hence my fellow colleagues had no stomach for a fight against the advice of the union.

I'd be very surprised if the advice from Balpa is not to accept what ever has been agreed between BA and the Trusties, just my hunch.

Good luck with the fight, I sincerely hope you are more successful in securing what you were originally promised than we were.

Short final fred

Who is taunting, you give that impression, I suggest you re read your rants!!! On a soap box or what ..... do you own any brown shirts ?...:D

Carnage Matey sayeth:
"Well my mole at Waterside tells me the vast majority of staff there don't really understand the implications of the proposals or of the strength of feeling amongst the pilot community. No change from the usual form there then.

I'm sure the company believe that some of the unions are on-side, the GMB being a prime example. Unfortunately for them you can have as many bean-counters, pen-pushers, latte-sippers and wildcat strikers as you like on-side, until they can fly a plane the company is going nowhere without the pilots."

Actually, I think a lot of non-flying staff do understand and it's an uphill struggle to get the message about the full implications across. The company does not like the unions putting across the real calculations and has, shall we say, not been helpful...

When you have large numbers of staff on performance pay, totally dependent of the grace & favour of management for progression and pay rises, there's an understandable reluctance to rock the boat too much.

Mark.

I can't help but think balpa's attempts to grab the BARP support by promising a 'significant improvement' is well short of the mark, and may end up with some junior guys not ticking that box for IA.

The trouble for the BARP guys is not just their current laughable pension. If BA win this, they will come after the payscales. The boss has stated he would like to see five pay points.

Not only that, the "pensionable pay" being capped at RPI inflation applies just as much to the BARP guys and will hit them even harder than the NAPS guys. Look thirty years ahead. For mathematics sake, if RPI is 3% and we achieve 4% pay rises, after thirty years the chasm between actual pay and pensionable pay will be vast. As a NAPS pilot, if you were expecting a £60k pension in today's money, it will be worth nearer £35k which is bad enough. However, if you were expecting an already shocking £10k pension from BARP, you will get nearer £6k as it's based on the same pensionable pay. If that's not worth striking for, I don't know what is.

Human Factor
"if you were expecting an already shocking £10k pension from BARP, you will get nearer £6k as it's based on the same pensionable pay. If that's not worth striking for, I don't know what is."

Well here's one vote for you, I wouldn't strike over it. Rather have a solvent employer that can afford to raise my basic pay which is the only way I'll be able to afford a pension at all.

Barney

GMB not on BA's side
 

Mark, this mole based at Waterside can categorically state that the GMB is NOT on BA's side, but is only interested in achieving the best for their members through normal democratic process. Some of the GMB members also happen to be the lowest paid in BA.

That is a joke Barney, isn't it? Having shown BALPA to be a toothless tiger unable to organise a strike against the biggest smash and grab in this companys history how do you suggest that you are going to negotiate anything more than the corporate pay deal, which will be RPI at most? If you want a decent pay rise support BALPA now or you'll be getting the same pay rise as the check-in staff and baggage handlers for the next ten years.

IMHO you are a tad naive Barney. The company has pursued and is pursuing a cut costs at ANY cost policy with scant regard to flying conditions, safety or anything else.
I take it you don't work for BA as the likelihood of BA raising your pay enough to make a substantial difference to your pension is virtually nil. What I would envisage, should this standoff fail, is a reduction (as has already been alluded to by LCG) to 5 pay points, and a drop in pay overall for all of us for our careers. After all they're hardly likely to change the pay scales to benefit the pilot community now are they?
Or am I just being cynical.....:hmm:

As Slamitin suggests, the Pensions Regulator has EVERY interest, and indeed has strong and sweeping powers if the matter is not resolved! Legislation has changed, it seems you're not up to date with it.........

Like Slamitin, my companies scheme has also undergone large changes over the last few years. Could retire at 55 without penalty, now retire at 60 or loose 6%/yr. Pilot contributions gone up by 50% etc. BALPA's pensions guy attended the pilot meetings to discuss the changes, and we were told it's everyones problem, not just the companies. We were told to be realistic, and accept the changed conditions upon the table. Now it's going to happen to poor old BA employees you all seem to think it's unfair! I trust BALPA supports you in the same way it supported us - with the same advice!

Welcome to the real world..........

Nice attitude 30W. "I got screwed so now I hope everybody else gets the same treatment". Fortunately our BALPA reps are fighting for us. What did yours do?

Carnage,

I have no idea which company 30W works for but I'm pretty sure his/hers equally tough talking BALPA reps did nothing more than listen to the advice from New Road. And yes that advice is rather unpalatable.

As a very disappionted BALPA member, I would be rather surprised if BA pilots do not receive that same unpalatable advice. Do you believe that your reps will go against such advice?

It's a sad fact that BALPA HQ do not have the balls to support Industrial Action despite your own personal resolve.

If Balpa does for BA what it did for our company, then there's little hope for success. We were screwed by the company with Balpa's blessing, as 30W indicates.
If Balpa does well for BA then its further confirmation that Balpa is a BA only association. For the Regional and Charters, TOUGH that's the best we can do, we recommend you to accept was the cry!!
You may just find out what it's been like for us the last 10 years or so, welcome to the unpleasant, greedy world of today’s corporate culture.
As a 27 year Balpa member I wish you all the luck, but I won’t hold my breath.

Carnage, Our reps took professional advice from New Road! That advice was to accept pensions reality and accept it, they even came around to members meetings jointly with the company and re-inforced that!!!

You do what you want about your pension scheme, and genuinely wish you the best of luck in doing so - all I ask is NOT to see double standards applied by New Road! I ask if it's ok by BALPA to support such rape and pilliage of others schemes, why are YOU a different case?

30W

Well, if they dont then BALPA in any meaningful form will cease to exist.

I think BALPA have made a very reasonable counter-offer to BA, which BA would be well advised to accept. If they dont, I guarantee a strike.

As an aside its odd that, for defending my contractual rights, I can be termed both a "Comrade" and a "Fascist". BA squandered millions and, in effect, expect the staff to pay for it. That is about all I have said, and I am certain that BA staff will not underwrite the mistakes of the past by surrendering their economic futures. I would add that BA has become a corporate bully of the worst kind, who'se treatment of flying staff in particular has seemed calculated to provoke the strike that will be not long in coming.

As I understand it the argument is that BA can afford BALPAs proposal (which would mean poorer benefits than those available to current retirees). Is it beyond the realm of possibility that BALPA realised that your company could not afford to meet its' commitment to your pension fund and there was no room for manouvre?

If that were the case, then I could reason with the argument. However the case is good profits made, more than sufficient to clear pension debt in one year (but in doing so not make city targets). Board members take huge bonus', and the scale of debt is NOTHING like BA's (proportionate on debt/company profit) I would say. No, it's more matter of case that BALPA have told most pilots in this country to accept the changes, but suddenly, oh, BA pilots, a different case......

Are BA pilots really surprised this doesn't wash with the rest of industry who have NOT received the support from BALPA that you now ask for?

Jesus Barney, just because you took a good shafting from Cabair it doesn't mean you have to expect this type of behaviour from all employers, this is Big A, expect better.

Now the Unions meeting with BA has finished, BA forgot to bring a lot of their figures with them so a new meeting will have to be arranged. Is this just incompetence? They also "accidentally" told the Worlds media that pilots and cc where increasing retirement age 5 years to 65 when they really meant 10 years from 55, or put another way 10/30ths or 33%.

All this deception is contributing impressively to pilot unity. Bring it on BA. BALPA have already met you half way.

Ba Pension problem
 

From what I can glean from the media. (BBC). The only change in the offer as compared to yesterday's deal with the NAPS trustees is: Offer to decrease the retirement age by employee option to 60 by pilot employee contributions rising from 6.5% to 11.25%, dropping to 10% after 5 years. 37m extra cash per year from the company, all other caps remain the same. Ground staff if they opt for 60 retirement their contributions increase from 5.25% to 10%. If somebody has more information please post it.

How much has BALPA got in its strike fund to take on industrial action ?

HOLD ON EVERYONE! WW and the team have saved the day... Really?

Headline news - Frontpage of BA NEWS (Thursday NOV 16 2006)

''NAPS triple cash boost offer...'' ''Cash injection rises to £800million''

Goes on to say that BA have offered to inject extra cash to plug the £2.1 billion hole in the NAPS scheme...

Will this be enough to fend off strike action?

Oh by the way the company has agreed to 'roll-out' the NEW CLUB CLASS product on all longhaul aircraft, to include new seats, entertainment systems and food to the tune of around £100 million. Yet another Club Class re-fit!!!

WW and his team of jolly henchmen have signed the death-knell to staff (Regional based staff) through the wasting of more money, this time on a Club product that was perfectly acceptable as it was - ask the passengers who made bookings and - look at the figures with Club Class more often than not, being oversold. Question is, why change something thats working perfectly well?

Nice one 'Team Waterworld' :ok:

You have obviously not listened to the Podcast, where Jim McAuslan leaves no-one in doubt as to the size of BALPA HQ's cohones

No, if the company don't come all the way to the BALPA proposal (remember we have gone from NRA of 55 to NRA of 60) then the BACC will put this to a ballot and the result of that will be a vote for STRIKE. This will cost BA money, so why don't they see sense and just spend that money where we suggest?

Christmas could be interesting.

Errm - to fit more club seats into each cabin, Tristar500, in order to make more revenue from our most profitable product?

We recognise that normal retirement age was a sticking point and we have put forward an option that allows staff to retire at 60," said BA's chief financial officer Keith Williams.
"Staff can still choose not to pay any extra but it will mean working longer to get the same pension."
For ground staff, contributions would rise from 5.25% to 10% and for air crew from 6.5% to 11.25%. After five years, the rates would be harmonised at 10% for all staff.
...
The above is a quote made today......
...
Question....If BA say these new % are required to keep the same NRD for members of staff, why would rate be harmonised after 5 years to the same level of 10% ???, I can't see how these numbers have been made up???
...
I would like to know what % of staff pay would BA accept to leave NAPs alone, this would make it very simple for all staff to understand just how big these changes are!!!:sad:

The re-fit is necessary. BA's most profitable product is getting stale. All airlines do this and it's an absolute necessity, in order to attract business paying customers. It's a bit like asking a car manufacturer not to redesign its cars. After a while (if they don't), your customers will start moving to competitors who have a more updated model.

As a pilot joining BA in December I am intersted to know the timetable for any possible strike ballot and action, am I even going to be able to take up the position?

There is no timetable yet. Even if there is a strike, I'd be surprised if it would be particularly lengthy. IMHO, you're unlikely to be affected.

If there turns out to be a ballot and you are a BALPA member and employed by BA at the time, I expect you will receive a ballot paper. How you choose to deal with it is up to you.

Thanks HumanFactor, hopefully I will still get to join BA.
As to how I will deal with it ( if I get a ballot) I do not know. With the caveat that I have not even started yet, and I have very little knowledge of the many issues regarding the pension fund.
I do think that people who joined and were promised a particular deal should recieve the pension they were expecting. However the most important thing from were I am sitting is the continued viability of the company, with luck I have more than 30 years at BA and I want the company to be around for that time.
Clearly the company will try and minimise its contribution to the fund and it must not be allowed to put in less than it can afford. I sincerly hope that no strike occurs and an acceptable comprimise is reached.:confused: :confused:

BA the most profitable airline? I think not... Ever heard of Emirates? Yes, these guys know how to put on a show! Like it or not, BA just cant compete...

Investment in new aircraft is what BA need to do, and now. The B737 fleet is approaching on average 18 years, and the B747-400 fleet is begining to show its age (earlier models). Dont forget that we face a possible court action on fuel surcharge charges - up to £800 million fine plus jail terms, the impending pension crisis and the carve up of regional stations - all that before T5 even opens it doors.

There is HEE-HAW wrong with the current Club config. If there were, then no one would bother to use it would they?

Yes, the British car industry, like every other industry in the UK BACK THEN, was at the forefront of design and inovation - look at it now... Its no so much a question of investment, but having the attitude that we are the best when clearly we have been caught napping for some time, allowing others to come in, see whats on offer, go away and better it and make it more affordable. Not so long ago people within BA were saying easyjet would never survuve. Soon afterwards, GO arrives. Then is sold to easyjet. Look at easyjet now... I REST MY CASE.

Wonder who the wise-men are... Was it them who decided to 'rebrand' BAConnect and give them 2 years to survive, in the end giving them just a matter of months before 'share-swapping' with flybe.com - and taking a 15% stake in said low-frills carrier... Mmmmmmmmm... Yes maybe I missed something, but there again try telling all the regional based UK ground staff that on Christmas Eve, when the wise-headed men send out redundancy letters. No room at the Inn for us anymore. T5 is more important - your welcome to it :ok:

PS - Yes the business passenger likes BA, until he is jacked around on his domestic flights, losses his GOLD or SILVER card and forced to fly with someone else ie Sale of BAConnect to flybe.com... Afterall its the frequent domestic trips that build up points added to the lonhaul sectors...

In a sickening parallel to the British car industry, British Leyland finally went under whilst its executive leadership were spending 70% of their time working out how to screw the staff. They were so busy trying to extract revenge over the unions, they lost sight of why they were in business in the first place, and simply forgot about the product.

Those who fail to learn the lessons of history . . .

You forgot to mention that T5 is projected to become too small for the BA operation around a year after it is fully opened.

So basically, a repeat performance by BA in 2006...

There was a discovery programme recently where some recently retired airline staff said ... Never has there been such an industry where management are so hellbent on treating their staff with increasing contempt, and hardworking resilient staff are so unvalued.

What was Willie Walsh's quote just recently ... "Loyalty has no value"..........

Are you really just discovering the well known axiom about 'loyalty', Anti-ice?

If so, how truly sad...:sad:

How can it possibly be equated to Leyland when they are highly focussing on the product so that they don't lose ground to the Asian airlines, in complete contrast to that failure?

WW made an extremely foolish and unguarded comment about the value of loyalty, which probably reflects his attitude towards both his job and his future, but I don't think that should be translated through all of management. Although some act and bahave in that manner, others are well aware of what is required to keep the operation flying, I am sure.

WW has lost a large amount of respect I might have had for his business operations, as he obviously has the same regard for human capital as O'Leary. Yes, they are both successful and canny operators, but such comments do nothing for relations - one element they disregarded in copying the SouthWest model in Europe. Shareholders might love his ability to run a lean, enduring airline model, but I would be worried as a shareholder that his management ability is too combative and somewhat lacking at the personal skills level.

With regards to the Club World upgrade, tristar500, you are confusing current success with what is needed to stay ahead of the game in the future - yes it is successful at the moment, but future success is not necessarily assured if the product become stale.

PS - can the mod please make a comment if they delete a post. It is incredibly annoying to write something and find it has vanished with no comment at all.

See post #862. BA is #2 (of passenger airlines), just behind AF-KLM in profitability.

Emirates is ahead at margin level only.

Furthermore the car industry in the UK employs more people than ever before at the moment and is more innovative and profitable than at any time in the past. The only difference is the ownership.

You are not comparing like with like. Emirates is effectively a state run, and state financed airline. Its profit or loss cannot be compared to any publicly quoted airline.

It is a good product, but the rest are catching fast and overtaking. So BA absolutely has to invest in the product or we will have no passengers to fly in the new shiny aeroplanes that you want BA to buy.

Shouting "I rest my case" is really going to convince us all that you must be correct.

BA has met the challenge of the LOCO carriers head on. And has done so with great success. You may disagree with the methods that Rod Eddington employed, but we currently provide a very real challenge to them. And a challenge in a brand new fleet of Airbuses. With a service. With a pilot workforce that is working absolutely flat out.

I understand your bitterness towards BA at fortress LHR. I spent 10 years in the regions. But that bitterness clouds and distorts your opinion of all things BA.

BA is a huge monolithic beast. Made up of both good and bad. It is neither all good, or all bad. We have both good and bad managers. We have bad arrogant pilots, and good approachable aces.

T5 is vital to the airline. Like it or lump it. If T5 does not work, BA is bust.

NAPs changes, how much it will cost you?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The first package, which requires paying more, features:
· A normal retirement age of 60 for a contribution rate of 10 per cent
· An accrual rate of 1/60th
· The option to buy a faster accrual of 1/56th or 1/52nd for a further 3.6 per cent or 7.2 per cent respectively
· A cap on pension growth in retirement of 2.5 per cent or keeping the current five per cent for a further 3.9 per cent contribution.
.................................................. .................................................. .
So it appears to keep NRD, 1/56 accrual and five per cent in retirement will just mean staff contributions changing from 5.25% to 17.8%, just a 12.55% increase in payments!!!
I suggest all staff work out what take home pay will look like with an extra 12.55% being paid into pensions!!!
The good news is apart from the above, any time BA can show people live longer, staff will take ongoing hits to reduce pension even more, plus any pay rise in future for pension will be be limited to inflation at that point in time, lots of scope to cut pension costs with some clever pay deals!!!
I suggest all unions get with BALPA on this one ASAP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
............................................................ ................................
............................................................ ................................
The above was from an engineering web site, appears the numbers quoted for pilots and cabin crew are even stronger? looks like the show will start soon, good luck to all the BA staff.

Unfortunately you do not actually mean that.

Your figures show a 240% increase! ie pension payments will be 3.4 times higher than they are currently. :eek:

Whatever...

Lets just hope all the hype over T5 and the rest of Team Waterworld will save the day... Theres no point in arguing... I still maintain that BA need to fix 'Grass Roots' problems first, before spending lavish sums of cash on a product that is already sufficient, and selling extremely well, before the BIG move to the BIG HOUSE at LHR, before the pension crisis is sorted, and before the fleet upgrade. Invest - YES - in the right direction and at the right time.

Iam not bitter. Just a tad dissapointed in the way the company is going, more recently since WWs arrival. In my 10 years at BA I can hoestly say that I have never ever heard staff feeling so de-motivated as they feel right now. :sad:

No hard feelings L337 eh?