Trouble making up their minds?
 

Hmmm, this thread has gone on since January, and yet I haven't heard of any news about an actual work stoppage.

One wonders, did the BA guys lose their nerve?
Wouldn't be the first time....:}

Well that was a massively valuable contribution 411a. Thank you.

Perhaps if you read the thread instead of just diving in you might know why it hasnt got to a strike yet. But if BA dont budge it will. Early next year i would guess.

Absolutely Hotel Mode (got my bid in for the RHS 744 BTW - can't stand another summer at LGW like the one we've just had - see you next year!), I was going to post with exactly the same comment WRT 411A's lack of courtesy in posting without even bothering to try and research the issue by simply reading the thread.

I thought it might all get deleted by a R&N mod for being not relevant to the thread though.

Having decided now to make my own contribution then, I'd better say something relevant... So for those too lazy to read the history of how we got to where we are now, here is a concise version...

1) BA jump on the bandwagon caused by Labour's new pensions policy and put out a load of propaganda saying how much trouble the pension fund is in.

2) BA 'consult' with the workforce (yeah right!).

3) BA mooted their initial ideas (informally), one of which was the Career Average replacement for FSS.

4) BALPA consulted its BA membership and made it quite clear to BA that any attempt to impose a Career Average scheme would be met with the fiercest resistance.

5) Following the triennial actuarial review, BA made a set of proposals eventually on 23 March. Career Average off the table, thank goodness (well done BALPA! And well done BA for taking heed of the writing on the wall).

6) There was much waiting to be done whilst BALPA (and other TUs) considered the formal proposals and BALPA commissioned research from top accountants into BA's ability to pay. NAPS trustees independently did the same.

7) Last week at the GMMs, BALPA announced it's amended position that, due to the amount of the deficit and the advice from PWC about BA's ability to pay, coupled with the complicated relationship between the Pension Regulator, The Trustees, The Company and the Workers/Pensioners; "No Change" is no longer a viable rallying cry. BALPA proposed an entirely reasonable compromise that should be acceptable to the majority of interested parties (especially the City Institutions). If a negotiated settlement is not reached, the Trustees and/or Regulator will almost certainly impose something much worse on us and that has always been seen by BALPA as "Not an option".

8) More meetings are being held with the company and the trustees. BALPA have stated that if the company won't move we could be balloted for IA in as little as a month. A ballot would run for at least three weeks and then the company has to be given at least seven days notice of any IA by law.



Apologies if that isn't wholly correct (it was off the top of my head), but it does give the gist of what's been going on and where we are now. Rather apt that my home made brazier will be finished just in time for the festive conker roasting season!

Shortfinalfred

I know this whole issue is very emotive for you, I am afraid your assessment of myself is not right, not that keen on caviar, but love champagne...! So love that sort of lifesyle, however, the bonus would not cover the new boat in st Tropez, cos I do not get big bonuses, if only...I will not wind you up anymore as this is such a sensitive issue, good luck, cos I think you will need it and one other bit of advice....keep your lefty leanings in the dark as I think it may be frowned upon within BA!! No joking apart...good luck to you all...power to the people!!! .......:}

BE is pretty much correct. Sadly.

All very interesting beaver eager, but it still doesn't address the situation.
IF all this has been going on for soooo long, why hasn't there been any action from BALPA?
After all, they DO represent the FD crew, do they not?

Me thinks...BALPA, just a bunch of p*****s, completely unable to get their ducks in a row.
And, not unsurprising, EVERY former BA pilot I have ever met over the years (plenty) has just as much contempt for BALPA as the company has...which is a lot.

In short, company wins...just like always.
Expect NOTHING different.

One wonders...just where is the BALPA backbone?

Go ahead, prove me wrong.
Five will get you ten there will be NO action whatsoever...BALPA will cave, in the end.

Whilst I appreciate that this topic neatly combines your favourite topics of unions and the British, as you actually know precisely nothing about the subject in hand please return to flying clapped out aircraft for 3rd rate airlines. Thank goodness the EU wont allow them in. http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=251992

Your post adds nothing to the debate 411A and is well worthy of deletion on 'inflammatory rubbish' grounds.

How can there be any action when there hasn't been any formal 'failure to agree' yet and the negotiations are still ongoing?

BALPA's research into BA's ability to pay only finished recently, are you suggesting they should just 'shoot from the hip' instead?

This is England, Old Boy... Not The Wild West! :mad:

And I just don't believe what you say about all the BA pilots you've ever met. BALPA might not be perfect, but without it the management would do whatever they like and our life would be complete hell.

If BA wish to avoid IA, then they will compromise. BALPA's recent decision to compromise is not driven by weakness but by the realities of recent UK pension legislation. I'd be worried if I were a Labour politician right now... A fate similar to that which befell the Republicans last week awaits, methinks.

Sorry, beaver eager, but your First officer status only belies the fact that you are a relative newcomer to the airline scene.
British...or otherwise.

Mark my words, BALPA will fold, there will be no IA, and all will continue to grumble on the FD...nothing else.

Period.:E

411a

I don't actually know what Beaver's SFO status has to do with the subject, I'd bet that he is much more in touch with BA pilots' views than you ever have been or ever will be.

As he says, in the UK (for better or worse - but at least we still have profitable airlines) there are laid down processes that have to be followed in the resolution of any dispute before you get to the point where a union or association can legally ballot for / call for a withdrawal of labour. BALPA is a responsible association, and to not follow the letter of the law can result in the sequestration of all money.

Whereas some unions may encourage unofficial work to rule/walkouts, BALPA will not do that.

It is VERY likely that the current situation WILL result in a ballot for any action up to and including strike within the next 2 weeks (+/-). I look to you eating your moth-eaten and faded Tristar management captains hat followed by a large slice of humble pie.

BA B747-400 Captain -to save you looking it up....

Actually 411A, I am a 737 Capatin at Gatwick. My true identity is open known to other BA users of PPRuNe as I am the BA forum moderator so no pretence possible.

At the risk of becoming involved in childish gainsaying, I have been a Captain at Gatwick for 8 years now, so I think I probably do know more about what's going on than you (who can't even be bothered to read this thread properly, I might add).

My realative juniority is beacuse I (and about 50 others) have an out-of-seniority Gatwick command due to BA taking over and integrating the company I worked for previously when I was already a Captain on the RJ100. I was the BALPA company council chairman of said previous company so I am close enough to BALPA to get a feel for whats is really happening today.

Guys I was trained by you guys on the Tristar and enjoyed working with you but there is a time to do things and that time must be approaching soon. I have just booked my next two holidays and guess what I have not booked BA the reason.....I need to be told and assured that when I leave on my holiday it will be with my chosen airline with all the uncertainty written in the numerous pages I could not guarentee that I would get to my destinations. I wish you guys well and good luck.

fergineer

That is a great shame. Many off us feel unsettled and disappointed that we are in this battle in the first place.

The point should be made that this is not about some short term greed for a pay rise but the reduction in my agreed benefits FOR THE REST OF MY LIFE while the management up to board level are trousering massive bonuses for cutting costs. When our chief pilot pocketed £348,000 a few months ago as his bonus his exhortation to me that I must work another 10 years and have pensionable pay rises and future pension increases pegged below inflation had a somewhat hollow ring to it.

I will fight and fight to win. WW is here for the short term as was RE and Ayling before him. WWs predecessors all walked off with huge golden handshakes. WW will too no doubt. However it will not be at my expense.

As for the 411a's comments about BALPA they have always had the skill to negotiate an acceptable settlement prior to actually striking. An actual strike would be seen in my eyes as a failure. But then we all know that in 411a's Texas world he kicks arse and people do what he says, period.

If you had read 411A's threads for as long as I have you would have realised by now that he has worked for at least 10 different companies on as many different types of aircraft in as many parts of the world, so is highly unlikely to have a pension.
His one common theme throughout his threads however is that he doesn't like pilots and he doesn't like BALPA.

Have been following the thread with interest and while my sympathy lies with BALPA and those they represent will regretfully be booking the holiday tickets elsewhere due uncertainty.

It does seem though that the whole approach to the problem has been very much more reasoned, unlike some of the other industrial actions that have formerly caused so much misery to the punters.

Ground staff now pay 5.25% of basic pay to NAPs.
.
How much would BA require staff to pay to leave NAPs alone?
.
Some of you must know, please tell !!!

C'mon 411A you seem to be the expert...

You guys are just giving 411 some credibility by responding to his poison.


Now I’m guilty too :rolleyes:

Indeed you are, unwiseowl, and we all wait with baited breath for the other BA FD crew shoe to drop.

You can't fight City Hall, and expect to 'win' many rounds...:E

Years ago 'ole Bud Maytag at National Airlines played his ALPA crews like a violin, and the tune was always not very nice...for the crews.

Me thinks, same for BA.

I think 411a is just being a realist guys, it is going to be an uphill battle which is going to be incredibly hard to win if at all............things are changing very quickly in aviation and as I said in a previous post, it is time to wake up and smell the cwoffee!! Glory days, a thing of the past, time to join us mere mortals!!......:}

Clue-less, not-enough-to-do of Texas strikes again! What can you POSSIBLY know of BA and BALPA from your tumble-weed hideout?

Just watch for a while. You will be contradicted by events.

Whilst we are at it, what exactly happened during your "career" that so embittered you against your own profession? Entertain us with something you do know about, rather than sermonising from afar about something you dont.

OK 411A, I'll take the bait.
I've no idea where you come from, but your comments about Beaver Eager are bizarre in the extreme.
Even if he were a copilot (which he isn't) it would be a mighty error to assume he is a newcomer to the aviation scene. BA recruit pilots from a multitude of backgrounds; all start at the bottom of the seniority list as the most junior copilot, whether they have 500 hours or 15,000 hours.
28L (BA 744 Captain, but I'm not sure what pigeon-hole that puts me in....54 years old, grey (balding, even), zimmer-frame stowed in the Flight Deck :ok:

BTW From what I can glean from discussions downroute and in the FD, the BA pilots are fully behind BALPA on the pension issue.

Ba pension problem
 

Sorry guys but you are on a mission which will end up with you getting even less than on offer at the moment, W. Walsh will not back down in my view. I as a an APS pilot pensioner will not lie down and let you put the company in hock and put my pension at risk and that is the also the view of APS trustees according to their correspondence. You are not the only players in this game. You may wish to go over the cliff but the APS pensioners will not join you.

since this thread has hit a magic 1000 contributions here's mine.

ill wait table's and learn to be a plumber before i'll let this evil little dwarf, assisted by his pathetic and self serving flt ops managers, take away what was promised to me and my family when they recruited me to BA.

i have no doubt that long before we reach the point were BA is wound up by PWC the board will have seen the light and moved our nasty unworthy ceo out the door. if they don't then to be honest i'll be past caring.

we either fight to keep a pension that rewards our efforts or we meekly accept ww's desire to take our future financial stabilty from us. i will be unable to look at myself in a mirror if we lose and i stay working at BA.

and lets not get started on the effective loss of our management concessions in the staff travel re-vamp, well it upsets the cc doesn't it. we are all equal, only some of us are more equal! what's next? i pay for my uniform and type rating to ensure lcg's next 340k bonus?. we lose these fights were will it end.

an airline that thinks engineers and pilots are expensive luxuries is one for which i'm not sure i want to invest any more faith, trust and time in. after 16 years in the cockpit i've never felt lower or less appreciated. i honestly couldn't care less if BA survives anymore. i know i won't accept it at the expense of my familys future. the company goes down, my next job can't be for anybody worse than this group of greedy chancers.

loyalty has no value, apparently.

i know my self repsect has.

Whoopx3,

I appreciate what you're saying, although it is irrelevant whether the APS pensioners support us or not. However from your point of view, APS is fully funded, viable and safe. If you are a pensioner, you have first call on it's funds so you are unlikely to be affected even if BA were to go bust (which I very much doubt).

I have an APS pilot connection as well, although I'm obviously not a member of it, so I'm well aware of the feelings of the members.

Ba pension problem
 

Alas you are simplifying the problem, APS has a small surplus and Ba is putting 24m a year into it. If Ba goes bust APS will have to rely on its own resources which if we go into high inflation will result in APS pensioners being affected badly. If any deal is agreed that puts APS pensioners at risk it is inevitable that APS trustees will go to court to have such a deal blocked, it is their legal obligation as trustees to look after the APS pensioners nobody else. This is what I mean when I say that BALPA ,NAPS ,etc are not the only game in town.

enjoy your aps pension. not sure what sort of care home your in but your aps pension is in surplus and protected. please let me know if i'm wrong.

that aside the jist of your argument is that you got the best pension known to man and that i should take a 50% reduction in mine to protect yours!

maybee if you and your era had spent a bit more time maintaining the authority and postion of the pilots within flight ops we would have retained the respect and recognition we deserve. instead you allowed our status to be eroded to the point were the board actually considered putting CSD's as 2ic's.

whilst on your watch you let them shut aps, a move i fully understand as i let them shut naps. however you also let a bunch of pay deals come through to shaft various entrant types at various times, nice. not sure i agreed with that. now you think my priority should be your pension, just how arrogant and uninformed are you?

we will pick our own fights as you did a pretty poor job of looking after us ( barps, we choose not to fight, sorry). i can't wait to see what you are going to do to "not lie down".

i have never felt an ounce of resentment at the aps guys getting such a good deal. i have never resented that they didn't fight to keep aps open for me. we all should get the deal we were happy to sign up for (barps guys included). you did and i hope ur enjoying.

when we strike come down to CC (big blue building north of 27R) and tell us how we should all get back to work so that BA keeps on going so you can enjoy all the retirement rights you were promised at our expense.

I hope the BA pilots defeat the proposal to retire at 65, whatever type of pension plan you happen to be on.

As a non BA BALPA member I'd be happy to see the union put its hand in its pocket because if Walsh wins this one it's going to mean a late, and short, retirement for us all.

Good luck to you.

Log on, select User CP (top left), select Buddy/Ignore, Input a certain user into Ignore and sleep at night.

The option is to rise to the bait of a plonker that has flown every route, every aircraft, worked for every airline, (except BA) knew Wilbur and Orvil but obviously never in the last 100 years got around to joining a pension scheme.

Discuss the issues not the rantings of this ****.

I am now on the outside, did my 35 years, paid into the pension scheme every month of that time and am now reaping the benefits. When BA was formed I was not offered the option of a pension holiday, I was never consulted with regard to BA's pension holiday. In actual fact history shows BA never put a penny into my fund (APS part 6), they only tried to take £6,000,000 out. Mike Post (he fought our battle) deserves a medal.

I wish you all well with your fight.

PS what's this about staff travel changes?

woodpecker,

don't think it will cause you any grief. they want to remove the enhanced priorities we recieve on our first and club tickets so that on-load will be by DOJ only.

apparently only the tip of the ice-berg. capt's and fo's will recieve no management on-load priority only a cabin one. not a problem for a 23 yr capt but with a large number of new pilots (1000 in the last 5 years) you can see that lots of fo's and the younger capts could find their f and j tickets virtually useless as they can't get on the aircraft in the first place.

the message is that all employees are equall unless you are management and that pilots are not managers!:\

Ok guys and gals...

Iam a BA employee going through self-funded flying training.

Just to put all this information into context - Will the flightcrew honestly strike? Beleive me I wouldnt like to be told that my pension was basically being 'hijacked' and 'pilfered' at will by the company, that what I signed up for and paid into as per the agreement - was not going to materialise. That the management of BA (or lack of) were dictating the terms and conditions of pensions and retirement agreements...

What will it take to sort this farce out? So far the management are not backing down - and will they? Willie Wonka took on EI and slimmed it right down. Will a strike give him the chance to do the same at BA?

Tomorrow night, the ground staff at EDI will attend a very heated and fierce 'Staff Forum' with management from London, regarding their future. It looks like we will all be out the door, and a handling agent will step in with a 'cheap as chips' deal... If 450 staff from the regions can be swept aside, then beware. It may be that the savings go into the pot for the pensions - who knows

Ba Pension problems
 

I understand why you are so upset, but you have to deal with the facts as they are and the law as it is, not as you you would like it to be. Each group of pilots has sold the next generation down the river, my group did not save APS (however at the time I voted to pull the plug to save APS but my fellow pilots did not, at the time BA was awash with cash). Your group has allowed BARP to come into being, nobody is lilly white here. The problem is, it is just not winable, BA is not even in sole control of its destiny in this matter. The trustees are the ones in final control. To go under the illusion that the Trustees will agree to BALPA,s demands is a fantasy. The NAPS trust composition is 6 company trustees ,1 pensioner trustee, 5 employee trustees. The employees do not even control the NAPS trust. How do you expect to win.

Hey, Iam only asking a simple question. Will a strike make one bit of difference to the attitude of the Pirates running the show at Waterworld?

Look at EI (as per previous posting) Its a shadow of its former self, albeit in a much healthier state but is 'low cost' on domestic/European routes, and about to leave the OneWorld Alliance due to this.

A strike will be the straw that breaks the camels back. Once a strike is called and flights stop, the confidence from passengers, business and the city will disolve quickly and for a very very long time. WW will have no option but to 'bankrupt' the company, and then where do WE ALL go? He will be left with no alternative but to scale the operation right back (Sabena, Swissair stylee) Although these airlines failed for entirely different reasons.

Yes there will be some sort of operation eventually but can you honestly see the same set-up after the fall-out with everyone being re-employed...

As I said previously, who knows what the outcome will be. There isnt an easy answer and I genuinely feel for all caught up in this nightmare, but once you call the strike, there is no going back and you have nothing left to bargain with :uhoh:

I am with those who would see BA go down rather than work for this management, largely a bunch of compulsive liars. Thieving our futures = the end of BA, plain and simple, if that is the way WW wants it. Better to live with dignity and re-train than to line the pockets of these money-grubbing cheats.

Those posters who think we are akin to slaves, with no choices but to take whatever BA deign to hand over are delusional.

WW has been offered a VERY fair compromise by BALPA, and he would be a fool not to take it. Pretty foolish not to examine the state of morale in his flight ops department too, but then, to a man to whom:

"Loyalty has no value",

I guess this will be unlikely.

That statement,attributed to WW, will, when the dust settles after all of this is over, resemble Mister Ratners' famous remarks to shareholders about the quality of his products.

I suggest that anyone who makes such a statement when running a service business in a competitive market place where, like it or not, the staff ARE the business, is so woefully misguided as to call in to question that individuals' suitability to run the business at all.

When all is said and done, I have a feeling that it may yet be WW who loses out of this and not the pilots. Never have I seen more anger or determination.

Tristar500 - dont worry I think whoopsx3 was referring to posts before yours. However, to answer your question - yes a strike will make a difference to their attitude. WW did not have it his own way at EI (the pilots stuck together and got a pretty good outcome) and the threat of a strike will put enormous pressure on him to negotiate.

Remember - independent (PWC) analysis has clearly shown that BA can pay more than they have offered. Simple as that.

Whoopsx3 - you are correct in identifying the power of the trustees. That power could be used to stop WW wrecking the company by allowing an avoidable strike to occur.

As it stands they want me to work 30% longer, or take a 40% drop in pension.

Of course I will strike.

sffred, spot on.

anger, resentment, hostility, determination, etc etc etc.

i see JR, chief at euroslave, had the audacity to tell the rest of his pilot workforce that he disapproved and found it unprofessional to discuss the pension issue on the flight deck:ugh:

well jr here's some sample chat

q hows the wife
A worried about the strike

q hows the kids
a worried how their dads going to work long enough to pay their school fees and then die before he gets to see his grandkids

etc etc etc etc

i don't want to strike but faced with the alternative it will be the first time i've headed into work (2 stand on a picket of course) with a smile on my face in a long time.

whoops x 3 the reality is that ww and his cohorts have pushed me into a position were i really have nothing left to lose. possibly 20 years left and this is my little big horn. your desire to see me give up so easily for the reasons you have stated , whilst guessing the type of package your on, is the most depressing event in run of depressing encounters with BA flag wavers.

thank god your gone. your contribution to BA was no doubt long and i have no doubts that you deserve your pension. however the ceo, like you it would appear believes LOYALTY HAS NO VALUE. so i can only assume he wants me not to give a flying fig about any future but my own. he has told me that he expects me to lose so he can gain. i will tell him in a ballot that i will strike till there's nothing left to compromise over. since you don't give a hoot about the principle of people fighting for what they were promised i'm sure you won't care a jot that any knock on effect to you is an irrelevance to me.:ok:

Ba pensions problem
 

Everybody thinks that a strike is going to be no risk to the pilots. Has anybody thought what a strike would cost and what a revised NAPS final pension deal post strike might be after another 500m has gone down the tubes. NAPS members could end up with career average, or a 1/80 calculator or both, plus all other types of caps on pensions. What is on the table now will just disappear post strike. ITV I notice have just terminated their final salary scheme overnight to existing members, no negotiation, nothing. That is the risk.

Whoop x 3

You are not listening. You are comfortably off with your gold plated APS pension and good luck to you, just do not expect me to rollover and expect severely curtailed benefits while the thieving management trouser vast bonuses for screwing my future.

If they try to screw me (commercial reality I will accept) then by God I will make sure they end up with nothing either.

You might spend your energies writing to the poison dwarf rather than preaching to the unconvertible.

As it stands the offer on the table might as well be an overnight closure of a final salary scheme. Are you aware, Whoopsx3, that the company wants to cap all pensionable pay rises to 2.5% for the rest of my career, and then cap my pension at 2.5% when I finally get it?

Ask yourself what that means if inflation runs at 3% for the next 45 years. At the very least it makes a mockery of calling it a final salary scheme, as my final salary will have nothing to do with whatever pension I will get.

I assume Wx3 that you are fairly recently retired. Now ask yourself how you would feel if you were forced to work until 65 (and please don't give me the 'you can pay to take a pension earlier' - I can only if I win the lottery) in a job that leaves even me as a 30-something absolutely knackered.

Don't forget - I am possibly about to go on strike and if I get everything I am asking for I WILL STILL BE WORKING AN EXTRA 5 YEARS AND LOSING 10-15% OF MY PENSION. Surely thats not exactly an outrageous postion?

Sorry APS guys - people are livid and this will get nasty. Only dont blame us.

Whoop cubed, you just don't get it.

Everyone I speak to on the FD is well aware of the risks of industrial action and the pain and strife it will bring to many, not least ourselves.

I, like many, chose to join BA rather than accept job offers, because of the retirement age, the pension and bidline. The first two of these are now under severe attack. If BA's proposals are implemented then my reasons for being in BA are largely gone. (We won't go into the subsequent attacks on bidline that would ineveitably take place). Therefore I will be looking very closely at other job opportunities with other operators including contract and LoCo work. To my mind, my new employer's viability and therefore my financial future would be greatly enhanced if BA no longer existed.

So yes, like many other posters, I will fight to the bitter end, til BA is consigned to the history books, rather than let this dwarf rape my familiy's future security.

Oh and Willy.....put a bloody tie on mate. This is British Airways, not Bogtrotter Air Charters and you may not appreciate it but we have an image we like to project.