Exactly my point HF.

It's lies, lies and more lies.

phoned pensions and asked why smiling CM's pension outline did not included my mod transfer and my increased accrual rate. the man on the other end of the phone informed me that they had only just heard about theese 'letters' and they had NO factual basis as far as pensions knew:mad:

keep trying to steal my furture from me, keep smiling at me in the cc whilst telling bare faced lies to my face, keep sending me letters imploring me to give for the sake of the company whilst you take take take, keep force drafting me on the flight deck whilst giving yourself weekends/xmas/new year/bank holidays off.

please can we strike, please. I've accepted that they won't honour their promises. i no longer feel i have to honour mine.

please force draft me this new year, please. cause i won't turn up.:D

Yes, that's how I feel too. I would love to strike over anything - pensions will do. It's just that everything else annoys me more at the moment.

BALPA's proposal is my bottom line.

Isn't it a shame that industrial relations in the UK seem to have gone full circle. Back in the mid-1800s the employers were the ruthless new industrialists, the mill owners for whom employees were a necessary but unpleasant evil required to make the factories work. Then by the turn of the 20th century things had improved somewhat with far sighted industrialists such as Rowntree, Salt, Lever and Cadbury recognising that their staff were valuable assets, demonstrating social awareness and still making a fortune. One hundred years later and we're back where we started from. The staff are scum once again, an asset to be exploited ruthlessly, to be squeezed for every last uncomfortable saving regardless of its significance to the bottom line whilst the macho mill owners move from one industrial relations disaster to another, coining it in as they go. How depressing.

How very true HS.

Sadly our management don't seem able to differentiate between groups of staff who are professional, productive and bench-marked (and who would be highly motivated if they were treated as such) and others who are unprofessional, less productive and paid way above the market rate for the job they are doing.

I guess they just don't care where the savings come from so they pick the easiest groups to target.

Thank goodness the 'enough is enough' mentality has finally taken root amongst nigeldom at large. It is way overdue IMHO.

Polonium & Pensions? Now I wonder how that will be linked in the proposed settlement plan?:(

IcePack,
Next weeks Headline "Due to the forward bookings the company will be watering down your pensions by another 10% to be fair"
.
Staff are asked not to look at the company share price until NAPs has been closed down???

Uh-Oh, Looks like BASSA have started Balloting thier members over a host of issues, including the pensions. I guess they are wanting to make sure they can strike over Christmas if they choose to.

I'm not allowed onto the BASSA website, but on the front page it mentions balloting etc, and not surprising the Daily Mail (BA's Friend) has the story as well.

Merry Christmas!:ugh:

The pension problem is not peculiar to BA. All companies with final salary schemes have had problems, such that most have now been closed. BA staff are fortunate that theirs is still in place. It is natural that you should vent your anger on the company for the parlous state of affairs, but the real culprit is Gordon Brown. Every year since 1997 he has plundered the pension funds to pay for his excesses. When Robert Maxwell did it, he was considered immoral. Gordon Brown is as bad, if not worse. He is plundering your pension fund to increase the size of his electorate in local government and the civil service, all of whom retire at 60 on indexed linked final salary schemes.
Incidentally, the pilots will not strike.

Well said BIG MACH.

Civil service pensions; which of course include Police, Health Service, the Military etc...etc is or are the elephant in the sitting room. Gordon Brown is in fact raiding private sector pensions to fund the public sector. It's unfair, criminal and fraudulent. You've got one sector of the population who contribute very little to the nation's wealth being subsidised by the sector that does contribute whilst "enjoying" far less security.

I agree with most of what you say ..... but not the above. As they say, watch this space, not much longer now. Personally, fully prepared and anticipating roasting my nuts by an open fire.;)

Incidentally,

The Pilots WILL Strike. ;)

Did I hear correct that Gordon's extra take from pensions schemes amounts to approx 100 Billion stg over the past ten years ..... :confused:

and everyone seems to have forgotten about it .... amazing

that's 100,000,000,000.00 stg

The more Gordon can make the private sector pay into pensions, the more he can rob them, if he can see due to his ongoing raid that started in 1997 that private sector people are living like mice to save for old age, they can afford more and he will take when it suits him.
.
Time to get a job in the public sector me thinks, or just go on the dole.
.
The only honest thing he should do is work out how much he has robbed from the private pensions, then apply same to public pensions and backdate to 1997 on a pro-rata basis. Not a chance in hell me thinks!!!

Big Mach - amazing, you can predict the results of a ballot that's not even been called yet, and then go on to state what will happen as a result!

FWIW, if this goes to a ballot, all the indications from BALPA members are that they will vote in favour. Whether there is a strike or not will then be up to BA - they can fund BALPA's 'position' - if they choose to. If so, no strike.

oooh big mac
 

Big mach reckons this is to do with gordon brown
big mach do you know when ba went private they took thier pension funds with them it is managed by bank of new york
estd worth around 12 billion again it is managed by bank of new york a private bank not a bank of england undertaking so browncannot put his fingers in that pot
If this sounds too complicated for you big mach then please log on to labour forum and critise mr brown
rest of us will wait for the ballot

Sikeano, dividends and other payments made by companies are usually paid net of tax of up to (I think) 34%. Previosuly pension funds were allowed to claim this tax back from the government.

In 1997 Gordon Brown changes the rules to prevent pension funds claiming this tax back, therefore effectively intorducing a tax on the income of pension funds.

When you consider the amount of money tied up in UK pension funds and the income this produces, the Treasury does very nicely out of the new rules.

It is a 10% dividend tax that has to be retained by the company on disbursement of the dividend. Hence, when you receive the dividend, you pay the additional 30%, or whatever your tax band required. Pension funds could previously reclaim this 10%, however they cannot now do so.

Value of the "tax" is equal to 10% of all dividends in the past 9 years, of company shares held by pension schemes. There are no other payments made that are taxed.

Sikeano - you make no sense and sound like a drunkard. BoNY have nothing to do with it - the tax regime is UK-based, and the matter in question is highly significant.

Sorry chaps it is me drunk again
We seem to miss the point the forum was started for some support for the pilot community against the bullying by the ba mangement .If the decision goes in favour of BA we all will be effected by this .Cos if BA can get away with not paying your pension what is that stopping the others
Now i am not a bean counter and i haven't got the foggiest idea about 34%tax, i pay 40% tax that means i work for gordon brown for upto mid may then i get to keep what i earn after that
The invstment of pension funds is done by the board and they (we hope ) know what they doing ie get a good return on the investment and this return if i may understand is taxed
The point was about the original funds which instead of being given to the pilots who worked hard all thier lives is being kept in some funds so the BA board can make some money out of it whilst the retiered pilots from BA just wait
I am sorry if i sound arrogant or Allegedly drunk blame it on the landlord of my pub here in my village

Oh dear me, you Biggles types need to give your googles a wipe with your silk scarves and have a look and see what century it is out there (surely even the Daily Mail gets the date right?).
Back in the real world the Civil Service isn't a job for life, with widespread casualisation and short-term contracts, and those final salary pensions have been used as the justification for years of below inflation pay rises and salaries below market rates.
Don't fall for the oldest trick in the book, divide and rule...

That was indeed the case but civil service salaries are now comparable, if not better than private sector salaries.

Index linked final salary pensions for civil servants is a nice benefit, the fact that they are funded from current tax receipts with no investment to cover the current or future costs is an utter disgrace.

Gordon Brown has such a pension. He has systematically screwed the UK Pension funds and companies' ability to sustain FSS pensions.

Where do I go to get the silk scarf and goggles? They'll go well with the white gloves... :suspect: ;)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/mai...0/cnpens30.xml
...
This is a nice story!!!

Bored now
 

This thread has been in R & N for almost a year now!
I, for one am fed up of reading that "BA pilots are prepared to strike" everytime I log on.
Chaps, if you're going to do it, kindly get on with it.
If there is no action, which appears to be the case, please, Mods, consign this thread to Terms of Endearment as you did with the BAConnect/Flybe thread.

Boris

I agree that this is dragging on, such is negotiation and industrial law.

In the meantime, may I suggest that you stop reading the thread and listen to the news. In the fullness of time you will be made aware of the conclusion of the negotiations in other media.

harpic
 

Next time you are ill, I trust you will go private and not rely on the dreadful Public Sector nurses, like my wife, who work long hours for bugger all.

What Gordon Brown is doing is a disgrace but to use the 'one size fits all' for the Public Sector is crass. As an ex serviceman, my T&Cs were messed around with at will and I did not have the benefit of an association of federation to run and bleat to.

We may not generate wealth as you say but my wife and I both make/made a sgnificant contribution to this country over many years.

Good luck with your protestations, I wish you all well.

Sorry Wyler I don't see your point

Boris - the point of keeping this thread at the top is that the discussions affect the employer with the leading terms in the industry. I figured this may be possibly be of interest to those pilots not employed by BA as we all work in the same marketplace. The only people who woul prefer this debate not to be happening are airline management, you're not one of those are you? :hmm:

overstress, boris is one of them according to topbunk so ignore his rant and if you read what topbunk has written to him is really good
People it is not important when the strike is what is important is BA wont get away with it and if they do the wider implications of this will be on all of us

Not long to go now Boris, I assure you.

If you are a manager, kiss your job goodbye because, after the bitterness that your planned treatment of the ballot result causes, you will ultimately be out that door. The actions of the great majority of current BA flight ops "management" are no more than licensed bullying, and you are about to reap the consequences of the years of your dedicated scr*wing of us all.

You richly deserve it. It will take years to rebuild any trust whatsoever.

Yesterday there was a very interesting, if angry, post on this thread that has now been removed or deleted. From that post it took me 2 minutes on Google to identify Boris.

Boris is or was a non BA mainline airline manager.

That is of course if the original deleted post was correct.

Boris may not have long to wait - sometime next week we may see a significant development....

This may be a little of track, but has and remains a big problem for private pensions in the UK, a mate from OZ mailed it to me, think its one of the UK daily newspapers Thur 7Dec.
...............................
Verdict on Brown.
Pensions
What he said: "Many pension funds are in substantial surplus and at present many companies are enjoying pension holidays, so this is the right time to undertake a long-needed reform. I propose to abolish tax credits paid to pension funds and companies." Budget 1997
What happened: The timing was appalling. The abolition of the tax credit, which generated £5 billion a year for the Treasury, coincided with the stock market peak in 1999 and subsequent fall in share prices. More than 60,000 occupational pension schemes have wound up or have begun the process of winding up since 1997.
Verdict: Not good. Mr Brown started off with one of the healthiest pensions systems in Europe and will most likely finish his Chancellorship next year with a growing divide between the pension "haves" (in the public sector) and the pension "have nots" (in the private sector).

And indeed, Gordon Brown does not give a Tinker's Cuss for the loss of private pensions, a thing he abhors. A man nominally so smart can not be so dumb as to be blind to what he has done, leaving the inescapable conclusion that it is deliberate.

I must agree with Boris, it seems all mouth and no trousers, come on show us what you are made of! SFF, dont take this the wrong way but anyone with a less extreme view than yourself seems to be branded management and condemned to hell to burn....just you wait etc etc. Militant views get you nowhere.......:}

Not entirely sure the likes of Iva and Boris quite get it.

The reason there has been NO strike ballot yet ("all mouth etc.") is because as yet absolutely nothing has changed. There are some wooly proposals which will not be accepted, but nobody has laid a finger on our current pension.

The timing is very largely in the hands of the Irish one. All that is being stated here is that there is no lack of resolve on 'our' side. Because we strongly suspect there is no lack of determination on the 'other' side, the outcome looks depressingly predictable!

That's all.

Mmmmm. And what would the alternative be?? :rolleyes:

Next Trade Unions meeting with the company on 14th December.

This MAY be the last one, we shall see.

Meanwhile Geoff Want recently took up (some of) his share options. Option price £0.00, sold at £4.83 and £1.57 sold at almost a fiver!

Now let me see
(£4.830 - £0.00) * 40,931 = £197,696 and
(£4.995 - £1.57) * 100,636 = £344,678

Nice little earner if you can get it.

But he does do a great job. Handled the "cross" issue so well! Had the staff (and the country in general) on his side with quotes like...

Mr Want said: 'We might.' But he added: 'We continually review our policy but on this particular occasion we see no reason to change it at this time.'

He deserves the odd £1/2million. But do the staff deserve their contracted pension?

"Snouts in trough" ???

Maybe we can derail the Gravy Train once and for all for these idiots

Just found an investment site...

http://www.iii.co.uk/investment/deta...tn:BAY.L&it=le

Plan to join myself to back up the couple of (I presume) pilots posting. Could some others from here register and voice their objections to some of the rantings by investors "who know it all"?