Thanks for the link, pondlifeman, it just about sums-up the wider state of the industry.

Where it REALLY counts, its "Regulation Lite" all the way, as regulators cease to regulate and merely check the paperwork now and again for a companies own self-regulation system. Of course, the temptation to do and say what the boss wants to hear under such a system would be overwhelming, and the resources the regulator devotes to really checking the independance and accuracy of a companies self-regulation system decline year on year. Hence, perhaps, the decline in support for, and training given to, the LAE.

But thats OK, since there is no doubt that these proposed cabin crew licenses your link refers to will attract a healthy fee.

With purists like the IAA in charge of the oversight of an airline largely based OUTSIDE Ireland, however, and knowing how well-resourced and respected they are, we can expect that, in the words of a well known campaign theme tune, "things can only get better". Or maybe not.

As the "race to the bottom" intensifies in the airline business, pensions evaporate, qualifications are debased, cost-cutting eats right into quality, regulators scramble to be the lightest touch going and management seek ever more outlandish bonus payoffs, (250% anyone? That's BA's benchmark for you all to aspire to), I think we will see a lot more of this kind of crazy thinking and bizarre behaviour.

Stability and safety used to be the core values an airline sought - not much chance of that now. Am I alone in wondering whether the industry is coming to a crossroads where some very hard choices will have to be made as to the way ahead? God forbid that a major incident is the trigger for such a review.

Safety is our FIRST priority!
 

I used to believe it ShortfinalFred, I really did. :(

But I dont anymore, maybe its number 2 or 3 now, if we are lucky.

However, and it's a big however, My first priority IS safety, and I feel that goes most of my co-pondies! I guess its the same with you lot. I'm sure that if it wasnt for the way our two groups behave there wouldnt be much of an airline left.

And what do we get for this? A new (temporary) management team that want to screw us out of our agreed deferred pay. Our pensions.

Well, I for one will not make it easy for them.

As overstress says.. http://www.befairba.org/

PLM

I do indeed say that, and thanks for the support, pondlifeman. :D It's good to hear. Our engineers are a highly professional and dedicated bunch. It was shameful the way the BHX eng's were treated during the A319 debacle.

Looking forward to your support. This won't go away until BA drops this assault on its workforce.

BA Pilots & strike action.
 

I wonder if there are any Flight crew who are still at BA who did their level best to help management break a bitter eight week strike at LHR this of was some 24 years ago, but their actions at that time laid the foundations for the present lack of sympathy that other BA staff feel for their situation.

So how many current staff do you think remember a strike 24 years ago in a nationalised airline and still bear a grudge about it? I'd hazard a guess that a significant proportion of the staff at BA weren't even born when that happened, let alone know if it.

I was in primary school so a little before my time..... :=

Industrial action????? you are joking!!! Unless the BARP members are brought on board there wont be any solidarity to any proposed industrial action!!!!!

Nice try sid but there are 2700 NAPS members, <100 APS members and around 200 BARPS members, all of whom are FOs. Whilst the support of BARPS members would be a nice gesture, the legality of their support is uncertain and is certainly not needed to ground the airline.

Sid,

BALPA will not enter negotiations regarding NAPS unless the deal on offer to those on BARP is improved to one which is industry leading. Whether or not there's a chance of getting those guys onto NAPS is another issue. The BARP guys have an awful lot more to lose if they don't back the campaign. The pensionable pay increases (on which BARP is also based) will be restricted to inflation. That will cost an effective 56% of the pension at retirement in 30 years time. I'm on NAPS and that will be a significant hit. Those on BARPS will not even have a pot to p!ss in.

If they choose not to join us (it may yet be deemed illegal), the BARPS guys are all at least fifteen years from command so even if they turn up, they won't be going flying anyway.

I'm not a big PPruner, but thought I would add my twopenneth from the viewpoint of the BARPers in this whole debate.

Hand Solo,

I just love your hardline views! you are right that BARPers and APS are insignificant at the moment, and certainly couldn't run a schedule by themselves, although I would like to correct you that there are 300 in BARP (and growing by the week).

The point is not what happens now as a result of the proposed changes to NAPS, but what happens in 10 or so years time. Of course you may not care because you may be long gone by then, but many of your colleagues will be around and BARP will by then be 50%+ of the pilots. If there is still a NAPS deficit as there certainly would be if the scheme is not changed now, then would there be any support for your strike then? Of course not and the company could drastically reduce the benefits without opposition. Those taking the pain will be those with more than 10 years to serve from now. So to be fair to all NAPS members it is more equitable to make the scheme affordable and sustainable for the long term now, which means cuts.

Human Factor,

A rare voice of reason on this forum!

Unfortunately those in BARP already have no pot to pee in so have nothing to lose in this fight anyway. If however BALPA stands by its promises and demands an industry leading contribution to BARP as part of the overall negotiation then a unity of membership may yet be acheived. This is important not just for this issue but for all future issues, as I have already pointed out that BARP members will ultimately be the majority of pilots in BA.

From where I sit, 15% of gross salary company contribution is the industry standard for defined contribution schemes eg Virgin. Compared to the 30% plus that BA is paying into NAPS that is cheap by comparison, so is not an unreasonable demand.

Barney

barney,

not sure about your 50% of pilots being in barps in 10 years time, but i'm pretty sure that almost none of you will be in the left hand seat at the time so i'm guessing we will still have a major say!

mute point anyway because the real issue is we are all getting fecked with and we both only get better deals by sticking together.

unfortunatley you and the rest of the new joiners joined the company accepting the new and woefull pension. your willingness to see my pension reduced as some sort of moral leveller for the pittance your getting is flawed my friend. you decided to join ba on the deal they offered you, i wouldn't have, but you did. i agree that barps is a disgrace. however was i willing to strike for people not yet in the company who would do my job for less money and crap pension? think not!

unfortunatley the race to the bottom has made people like you join the company on T&C's that people like me wouldn't have considered. if you feel the best way to protect your future in the company is to support managements rape and pillage then i'm guessing your ww idea of the modern pilot. i for 1 don't expect to see you on the picket line, but i can't believe you think that naps members should pay for our new long haul fleet and ww bonus either!

as ww attempts to turn us into to ryan air with champange i fear it will be chaps like you, desperate to join but bitter that you don't have the deal that the rest of us have that will make it easier for him to screw us all. as i've said this is not an issue that directly affects you or one that i expect to see you stike over. however the result will have a direct influence on the negotiating position that balpa can take in the future.

2 many desperate plane spotters with atpls who will work for free going to put us all in the crapper barney, if you will join for a crap pension 1 of theese clowns will join for no pension!

no doubt standards remain high and pax safety not affected by the drive to put the cheapest pilot possible in the cockpit!

Just for info.

When BA closed NAPS to new members about 3 years ago, the unions were not very happy but did nothink, BA told the unions this would ensure NAPS will be ok in the long run.

No surprise that BA want to hack at NAPS now, it's obvious that the sooner they can force any changes to NAPS, the more cash they can save for in house payments to managers.

About 20 years ago, staff were advised by BA that leaving APS and going into NAPS would be good for the company, many did, I don't know of any staff looking back now thinking that a wise choice.

Did you know that under the changes made by Gordon, as of April 2010, NAPS members can't draw pension till 55 years of age, however APS members can draw at 50.

If BA wants happy workers, it should stop the BARP and let all staff into NAPS.

BA only mention cuts to NAPS.

Why don't BA just ask staff to pay more into NAPS and keep present terms and conditions.???

joe, calm down, it's only a forum!

it's a forum matey so it helps if you read the posts. don't think i was preaching about morals anywhere!

unfortunatley you and the rest of the new joiners joined the company accepting the new and woefull pension.

anybody who applied to ba and knew they were joining in barps has absolutley no right to give me a hard time for pointing out that they made an informed decision to join a very poor scheme.

i like the rest of the ba pilot body so no point in IA to gain benefits for pilots yet to join the company. we rather niavely thought that ba wouldn't get the standard required and would have to up the package. the jury is out on that one!

now that naps is under fire we will strike to protect the deal that we joined for. the stupidty in moaning to me that i didn't strike whilst you were at easy/ryan/bax/wherever so that you could get a better deal WHEN YOU MANAGED TO JOIN is breathtaking.

as for 'my types' occupying seats. by that i take it you mean averge joe's who come to work, pass sim chxs and rts chx first time and without fuss. work hard to operate in a safe and happy enviroment, support my union and the rights of fellow employees and just expect my company to deliver as promised on the agreements they made with me.

maybee we need more of your type, no doubt the best a man can be and just happy to be living the dream. all the better if it's at the expense of those nasty BA pilots who had life so easy until hard working chaps like you came to save the company with your cheap cost base and acceptance of your terrible barp scheme.

your in the company now mate, i'll support you 100% in your quest for better t&c's now that your part of the team and have more than a passing interest in the future of our company and our place in it.

if you are really in BA please make the point to all the captains you fly with that they should have gone on strike to make your change of company even better and sweeter for you. maybee you'd like merged seniority and how about a date of joining based on when you got your atpl, not counting cadets and ex-raf of course cause they got it to easy etc etc etc

edited to ensure sum extra spulling mostakes

If you were a bit more informed then you would realise that most of us didn't join for one reason alone. BA still offers a lot of other options to someone that comes from the likes of RYR/EZY/BACX etc.
However one can not blame someone outside the company for deteriorating terms and conditions. One has to be introspective and it's clear that everyone is just looking after their own.

You agree on the BARP scheme being awful but you let it happen.
I'm happy to support you guys since it will affect us aswell in the future but saying that it's our fault is just bollocks.

well no one else was in a position to strike to stop it happening, were they? British Gas employees didn't see it as stupid. You still don't seem to comprehend that reducing terms for new joiners as a tool for reducing employee costs, is like stealing candy from babies for management, and the only impediment to it happening is a bit of selflessness from present employees.

I am not in BA, thank God, but I have narrowly missed out on a final salary pension twice in my career, and there seems to be no end to the supply of pilot negotiators who are happy to let this sort of thing continue to happen.

jesus wept!

shaka,

not blaming you for barps, i'm only pointing out that you signed up to the deal in full knowledge of its shortcomings.

i signed up for naps. i also knew exactly what i was being offered.

the company is seeking to deny me what it promised. that is a very different issue to the barps situation in which you signed up to a crap deal and now seem to want me to accept the blame for your decision.

your decision to join ba had many angles i am sure. i would not have joined the company, transfering my mod pension at the same time, had i been offered barps or had known what www had planned for naps 7 years down the line.

i would have loved to have been on aps, you don't hear me or the other naps members blaming aps members for the problems we are facing.

barps and naps are fights that are linked in so much that we need to fight to get the best we can for people ACTUALLY IN THE COMPANY. i'm afraid i was not strking for guys who are sitting in other companies with fingers crossed that we go down so they can take the jobs we get fired from whilst on strike!

you joined on your scheme, i appreciate your support in the fight to protect our scheme. you will have mine when you fight for the improvement in yours.:ok:

so lets get this right joe,

your not in ba, you have missed out on 2 final salary schemes, and it's everybody elses fault.

no worries mate, off to get my ballot form:{

Anybody spot that article in one of the business sections today about BTs pension deficit? Apparently due to improving bond yields, fund performance, blah blah blah their deficit is down from £3.6Bn last year to £2.2Bn this year. Funny old thing.

Martin Broughton has apparantly said that the new deficit is "broadly the same" as the old one, so we can ll rest easy....

BA is currently running at 8% return. 10% triggers a bonus for managers of between 150% and 200% of annual salary. If they can persuade the employees to give them the pension deficit it raises return over 10% without having to do anything difficult, like dragging the airline out of the 1970s. Altogether its a bit of a no brainer if you are a manager.

Bonuses of 150-200%? Which managers exactly are eligible? ( and what is your definition of manager"?)

The upper limit is actually 250%. I believe all the board members are in line for that sort of bonus. I would guess most of the senior management grade are expecting similar and there are around 1200 of them (and thats after WWs cull of 600 SMs!).

Skylion. HS's info matches what I'd heard about mgt bonuses.

I would doubt if more than a handful would be in line for anything like that as it's way beyond any scheme the bulk of them would ever have seen before. I would guess that it if it were the right figure it would apply to Executive Directors and possibly the next tier down, but highly unlikely below that as the cost would negate a large part of the savings they are making by current cuts.

Heavy,

There is strength in unity. Division of the workforce is an proven way of reducing overall terms and conditions. Division is what we have in BA.

The BARP scheme is a disgrace and we, the current pilots, let it happen. The Engineers in British Gas went on strike to protect the final salary scheme for new workers. They had far more foresight than us.

If you speak to the new joiners you may find out that many did not know how bad the pension was before joining. Indeed, they were told two things. Firstly, BA said it would be industry leading - it is not. Secondly, they believed it was still under negotiation with BALPA.

By not demanding a good pension for new pilots you have promoted the demise of the industry you help build. Shameful.

finger bob,

i'm guessing that the british gas engineers didn't have to concern themselves with having huge numbers of gas fitters hoping that any strike at bg would cause mass sackings so they could get jobs!

barps is a disgrace, not sure how many times i've agreed with that on this forum. striking to prevent its introduction would have been like turkeys voting for xmas.

it appears to me, and the trainers and recruiters i talk with, that BA management is in a head first race to see just how little of a package they can give a pilot and just how weak a DEP they can get the trainers to accept. given that we are on a forum that is full of people who routinely state how they will work for free and pay for their own type ratings i felt that any IA would just play into ba's and theese wannabees hands.

i made a decision based on practicality and realism. shameful i won't accept. wrong , only time will tell.

however the day BALPA starts growing some balls and acts as a combined unit, ie i won't steal your job at BA whilst you strike for my pension, then i will be on that picket line. the day that non-ba pilots stop praying for our downfall and portraying us as a bunch of spoilt prima donna's i'll be prepared to fight for an improvement in their t&c's.

i'll be on the picket line for naps. i'll support any BALPA move to get barps improved. you want to blame someone for barps, blame management, blame balpa for a fudged and quite frankly stupid position and blame all the desperate wannabees who think it's ok to take a job on any t&c and then wonder why things are getting worse.

ps please b4 anybody says i am being arrogant about the standard of deps, yes we are getting a lot of great guys and girls joining us but anybody who says we r not taking people that wouldn't have got to part 2 5 years ago is in denial. how many letters re-inviting interviews did we send out! i'm sure that was because we got enough applicants at a good enough standard! could it be that the guys who have options go to vs and elsewhere now! those are the guys and girls that deserve a pat on the back, know what your worth and don't accept less:hmm:

:D Hear hear re the 'desperate wannabes'. I'm one of the cheapest 747 pilots in the world - 'cos I work for BA - and I'm knackered.

All you wannabes - I bet you'd pay to get off your 3rd 2-man all-nighter in 10 days.

Paying for your own type rating - :yuk:

the heavy heavy:

Well my friend - our trainers accepted you at some point, be it as a DEP or CEP. :hmm:
.... but I see you're point, really I do - Why should such an accomplished and talented individual as yourself concern his/her self with the terms new riff raff are joining on? Sure most of them are foreign anyway and don't even speak the Queen's English.

Thankfully YOU are a minority in BA. Otherwise I dread to think of how bad it would be to work here..... :yuk:

Don't forget, the pensions issue is a very devisive one. You are playing into management's hands just as much as any BARPer who dosen't wish to support you. Maybe if you were a little more inclusive, and maybe if BALPA had any balls we wouldn't be in this fine mess in the first place.....

I note that amongst the demands for British Gas style strike action nobody has pointed out that the gas fitters didn't actually achieve a final salary scheme for new entrants.

Ok guys this thread started on 12 January its now 17th May and the thread is 34 pages long when exactly are you going on strike? My holidays are coming up soon so could you please make your minds up! or is it all just talk? Ok this makes it 35 pages long!!

Negotiations are ongoing. If we ballot, you'll get plenty of notice. ;)

marlowe
 

When? Nobody knows. The Unions (all of those involved, not just BALPA) rejected the Company's offer at a meeting on 26th April. The Company have gone away to reconsider and perhaps come up with a more sensible/acceptable set of proposals. Given that the defict is due to reassessed in mid June it's unlikely BA will say much before then.
If the proposals are still unacceptable then there would then be a whole set of procedural and legal steps to go through before anyone mans the picket line ( formal "failure to agree", the ballot with it's timetable, then the legal cooling off period), my guess is there could be no action for August at the earliest.
I hope it doesn't get that bad but make no mistake.. it's not "just talk", IMHO this strike will happen unless the Company makes a radical change to it's proposals.

having had a quick look at your post history, i see you fit my description of who is benefiting from the new deal perfectly. guess if we had a better deal you'd still have to be flying for your '!!!!ty irish airline', your words not mine! i've got a few mates who have joined on the new deal. we as a company have been very lucky to get them. we will also be very lucky to keep them as they are meerly waiting for a better deal elsewhere. they knew the deal they signed up for and decided that since they already had a pension from betty that BA would be a good place to start in civvy street.

as to your belief i'm in the minority, i have a great time at work and seem to be surrounded by like-minded people most of the time. if you want to believe that am just an arrogant **** then i really don't care. lets just say that i'm pretty sure i'm in the mainstream.

regardless of our dislike of each others opinions i'll be on the picket line to protect the RIGHTS I SIGNED UP FOR and i'll support any union move to improve the RIGHTS YOU SIGNED UP FOR.

you want to believe that standards are soaring upwards your either management or an idiot.

see you in flyers.

the heavy heavy:

What a lovely retort! :D

Firstly read the disclaimer at the very bottom of this page - don't believe everything you read here on PPRuNe.

Secondly, and probably more importantly, wake up! Pilots are joining BA, and will continue to join BA as long as they perceive the package on offer to be any way better than that offered by others. That is the simply reality of a free open market. Equally Pilots will leave and go elsewhere if they perceive a better deal exists there. If you have difficulties understanding market forces, then you might be better off still coconed in the service of HM. :hmm:

The current situation whereby some BARP members have no wish to support you or the fight against changes to NAPs is not particularly surprising, considering you/ the then BALPA membership essentially agreed to BARP under the very misguided illusion that NAPS would be kept safe if you did so.

But more importantly than all of the above, and the bit I find arrogant and deluded on your part is your suggestion that BA are actively seeking out 'weak pilots'
Your words - not mine. :(
BA hire, maintain and promote the very same standards with new DEP's as with current serving pilots. To suggest anything else is only stroking your own ego.
You may consider your background and experience in HM service to be better than mine (or anybody else’s for that matter), and having that or any other opinion is your privilege - but you should take the time to look around and see the wealth of skill and experience many of our DEPs have.

:= Well my friend I'm not management, nor do I have any aspiration to ever be within BA - I've tried that previously and found it to be a thankless time hungry animal - nor do I believe standards are 'soaring upwards', but they are certainly not spiralling downwards like you suggest!

I for one am 100% behind the fight to maintain NAPs, and it may surprise you to hear that I'll be there right beside you on any picket line - while I may never benefit from the spoils of war so to speak, I do believe management need to see unity amongst us as a group, otherwise we might as well give up our terms completely.

Incidentally I'm one of the small minority who proudly wear my BEFairBA lanyard at work,(although with such a small minority wearing them I've stopped of late) do you??

That may be your take on it BH, but nobody elses. Nobody believed BARPs was some sort of magic wand that would keep NAPS safe. It was a case of nobody believing that a fight to keep NAPS open was a fight we could win. The fact that nobody in any other major company seems to have managed to keep an FSS open to new employees would tend to support that view.

It isn't really the FSS itself that is unaffordable by companies, and there is nothing that makes FSSs necessarily significantly more expensive than money purchase. Its only fundamental difference from defined contribution is that the employee is insulated from market fluctuations, whereas a DC pension worker must live with the fact that his pot of money may out perform or underperform the cost of living when the time comes to cash it in.

However, this switching from DB to DC is just nearly always just a cover for the company to reduce contributions by several magnitudes. If, for example it costs BA 25% of your salary to maintain the FSS pension; a contribution of 25% to a DC scheme would nominally be worth the same. Instead it is slashed to 8% or something, and new guys are palmed off with the bluster that final salary schemes are an extinct concept - Not so; All that has been delivered is a 17% pay cut.

(Edited for fantom's benefit).

Brilliant. Three negatives in one sentence.

Is this a record?

ban head,

yes i do.

had i know i'd be fighting for my pension and that the company would try and steal it from me, then staying in the 'cocoon' that was the balkans and the desert might have been a better option! at least i knew who was out to f*ck with me!

i'm not stroking anything. i'm only in agreement with the concerns that some senior trainers and a couple of recruiters have expressed to me in the last 12 months. if you want to take that as a personnel attack on your ability then fine, it's not. it only takes 1 mistake to end it for us all. i'm sure you know how close we've been! if your on the 400 you'll know how concerend they are. not saying that the new deps are the problem, that would be nonsense. what i am saying is that those who are in power and are willing to chat down route make no bones about the challenge we face to recruit the standards we need with the deal on the table given the time to command. i've been told that some compromises have been made to get the numbers required. fact. i hope it doesn't bite us.

this thread was about BA pilots being ready to strike. at every chance barps pilots have been on here bleating about how you reap what you sow. whatever the wrongs of barp if 90% of ba's pilots to stike for the pensions they SIGNED UP FOR it will have NOTHING to do with the deal that BARP joiners knew they were signing up for. stop mergeing the 2.

i'll say it again, i'll back the union in any action over barps. your suppport over naps is welcome but not expected.

:ugh:

I rest my case.

It is traditional to make a case before you rest it. We're still waiting fantom.