Ryanair waiting for line training
 

For all future Ryanair pilots or wannabes be advised that there is a very long waiting period between the end of the type rating course and commencement of line training.
The reasons given are a shortage of line training captains, conversion of all B737-200 crews onto B737-800, late arrival of new airplanes due to Boeing strike……etc

I believe that it’s just poor management, no one working in the training (rostering) department and the simple fact that Ryanair doesn’t seem to care about its pilots (or any other employee).

Some pilots who finished the type rating course at the end of July are still waiting to start line training….not paid. The only sim time during this period is circuit training approx once a month.

Cheers

Take the rating and go and work for someone else, I'm presuming you paid for your rating anyway, its yours to go where you please. :ok:

Thanks RYR123 for that. Your immediate respondents don't seem to have picked up that you were providing a warning. Having recently spoken to one of the many other pilots in this predicament at the moment - and who just follow the previous cadets, etc. who went through a similar predicament - can I just support the value of your adding this information here with the following observations:

1. RYR123's is not a second hand report - which we often see here.

2. What he says has applied to many pilots, past and present.

3. What many prospective Ryanair pilots don't realise is that the pilots in this situation are often bonded and find it close to impossible to leave. Alternatively they have borrowed large sums to pay for a rating.

4. What they also tend to miss is that such pilots are not paid until after they have completed line training - and even then the rate of pay can be very poor.

5. The "let them rot until we are ready" syndrome is part of the "put pilots in their place" and show them who is boss style of management beloved by Ryanair. It has the added advantage, learned from Eastern European cabin crew, that employees with debts tend to be well behaved and prepared to work very hard - even to the point of appearing to forget that there are rules involving fitness for duty.

6. The one thing I disagree about is that it reflects poor managemet. I can assure you that if the pilots concerned were costing Ryanair anything, they would become productive very quickly indeed.

I've been waiting since the summer for line training.

Don't be fooled into working here. They don't give a crap about you waiting at home for four or five months on no pay. No communication, just that they "Will get back to you".

Ask yourself can you afford to live with out any wages for the best part of 6 months if you want to come to work here?

Until the base Check is done we don\'t have a type rating we can\'t leave, they have us by the balls.

They have made no effort to clear the backlog, except cancel an order for a 3rd 800 sim until the summer.

Are the lengthy line training delays after the course right across the board (Capts & SFOs who have just joined FR), or does it mainly apply to cadets?

Captains getting looked after first with no delay because they are so short of them. 737 rated peeps being put through with little delay also. Others being left to rot for over 4 months including guys with commands elsewhere and buckets of jet time. We haven't even started flying and most are planning where they are going to go when they leave asap!

I find it quite amazing how many people have put themselves into this position with FR as this has been a known problem for a long time. Had you done any research at all, and not removed all objectivtity from the equation, you would have known this was exactly the outcome you could expect on joining FR. So either a) you did the research and still joined, which shows a severe lack of judgement or b) you didn't do the research, which is just plain stupid.
Reality can be a harsh travelling companion in Ryanair. Other wannabes, you have been warned. Yet again. Time to learn your lessons.

Not shooting but you'll be working harder than elsewhere as well.


Br.

In the meantime not only do you receive no salery but you still have to pay that big fat loan you took out to pay for your FR type rating. Also the longer it goes on the more chance of failing the base or line check you will have.

You were warned many times so it's your own fault. You have made your bed so lie in it or get up and go elsewhere.

Oh I think I'm doing quite nicely where I am thanks very much.

T/R, Base Cx and Line training complete within 8 weeks and the pays pretty good too, oh and fully paid during the course.

FR has always been like this, the biggest hook they have is the recruitment of low hour pilots, many of whom (and note I don't say all) are desperate for employment with mounting debts and therefore willing to accept completely ludicrous T & C's which drives other companies down the same route and permeates through our profession like a cancer.

Sorry to say but if you'd read through the shiny recruitment c$$p and looked at the real picture you probably wouldn't be there.

Only yourselves to blame :}

I believe the RYR boys on here have giving plenty of prior warnings about this.....

It'll be taking you a good 3 yrs to get to SFO and to get on an acceptable salary in comparison to other airlines, and only then if your earning sterling, based in the UK. Then break down what costs you have taking medicals, uniforms, food, pensions, health care etc, factor your pay down to an hourly rate compared to other airlines and you WILL find you getting seriously stung. You may get more than the average puddle jumper flyers but compared to major EU airlines.......NO.

I suggest that YOU get your facts straight, and prepare to face what is coming.

Some of you posting here obviously have a problem with RYR and its employees.

1) Do not blame people who pay for their training as driving down T's and C's for everybody else. I think you will find that every airlines terms and conditions have been eroded over time due to the nature of the industry.

2) Teh fact that some people have to wait is unfortunate and i sympathise, but RYR are very busy recruiting and training at the moment and thats just the way it is.

3)Are some of you honestly saying that this has never happened before to employees with other airlines. I can think of numerous examples.

4)I was a cadet at RYR - i used to clear 2k a month net, you cant tell me thats bad, i bet its as much as anywhere else.

Camelair - how can you research the state of the training department? Are you suggesting that prospective RYR employees should take what is written here as gospel?

wobble2plank - you should be ashamed of yourself for your last sentence, smartasses like you spoil the job.

A last final point, in the UK as far as i am aware you need to complete base training before the CAA will issuse the addition of a type rating on your licence, therefore how would you suggest a person trained by RYR to the LST, then goes about completing the circuits? (another airline? new sops?) offers please.

Nope, not really, I've just been in it for a long time and see it for the job it is.

I really, really do sympathise for those cadets/Low hour guys who are stuck on the bottom rung. I also have a great deal of respect for those with the balls to follow their wishes and outlay huge sums of money in the pursuit of their 'dream' career. We need more of this calibre of people in this country rather than those who draw the dole 'cause it's all too difficult'.

What I don't have time for is those people who willingly enter into a contract with blatantly poor T & C's, sign on the dotted line and then complain when they are left hanging at the whim of poor management.

As to the erosion of T & C's you are quite correct, they have been eroded across the board, but sit back and think where the erosion comes from. FR churns out disgruntled pilots, not all of them, true, but a fair few who then fill up the next airline and the next and the next. A surplus of any commodity will lead to it's reduction in value.

So, don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking the pilots per se but I am telling those who entered this willingly to, maybe, next time have a closer look at the small print.

And generally I've always been a very mellow chap to fly with, no complaints yet :suspect:

Have fun
:E

Eager:

I will blame people as many other will for those that fund their own ratings. This debate has raged on for a few years now but its is clear that those carriers that do ask for you to pay for your job are feeling the pinch and it will only get worse. A few ads I have seen lately even go as far as making it clear that SSTR is not required only a bond. Easy and Ryan are in a pickle and from what we are seeing its only going to get worse.

Anyone willing to pay for a rating in this environment is 'Financially Challenged'. No offense to any of you out there but turbo-prop operators in the UK are screeming for pilots so go get a free rating and build some multi crew time. Before you know it a WELL ESTABLISHED carrier will give you a rating and full salary from the day you join. Serioulsy folks..................

No, but it is generally more accurate than information provided by the management.

Pressman,

I se your point and understand where it's coming from but remember that everyone started at the bottom in this industry. There is no magical leap to captaincy and a larger pay packet with benefits. We all started on crappy pay but with the prospects of hard work earning us the benefits and lifestyles that we now expect. Should we rob peter to pay paul? Good question and one that BALPA has been couching for a long time. Should I feel personally guilty that new pilots have a worse start in their careers? Probably not, I was also there once with large debts, a cr**py car and no money. Should the experienced ones point out the pitfalls and offer advice, no matter how painful it may be? Yes I believe so.

Can we really negotiate better T & C's across the board? No I really don't think so. This environment is not as stable as it once was and job security, irrespective of where it is, is not what it once was. Should we throw rocks when we live in a fragile glass house? Probably not what you want to hear but it's the truth,

Congratulations on your new job, so long as you enter it with eyes wide open I am sure you shall enjoy it. Look at yourself in twenty years and ask yourself the same questions.

Have fun

:ok:

"5 Year deal - spare a thought for new entrants" - err no thanks! All new entrants have the ability to make their own choice (take it or leave it) Take what's offered and accept it for what it is! Reject it en mass and it MAY change at some stage in the future! By accepting it you are defacto weakening the position of the existing employees since the company will always pull out the old card "if you don't like it then leave - there are plenty of guys out there willing to take your place".

5 Year deal??? Thanx but THAT's for us guys already here trying to maintain our situation sorry! :rolleyes:

STOP HIJACKING THIS THREAD!!

I never read anything anywhere here or elsewhere that said we would be waiting for 4 months for line training/Base Checks etc.

I was fully aware of what I was getting into, but nothing was said about 4 months waiting to start work.

This is about being given the mushroom treatment because we are Cadets. Not as much as a phone call in all this time to let us know what was happening, just e-mails telling us soon, etc.

Sorry to hear you guys are having such a bad ride! I joined from another airline back in april. It seems that guys who are already rated on the 737 are given priority as they need the pilots on line and they take far less line training. From my starting at east mids to be line checked was about 5 or 6 weeks for me as only had to do 3sims and 24 sectors line training. But saying that a few of the cadets that were at east mids when I was there are now line checked and on line so i guess there are a lucky few. Just hope you guys get started soon! :}

Pressman, Yes an awful lot to be honest. But not in the last few weeks. Its extrememly hard to stay motivated and study when you have no goal to work towards.

oh no!!! And you're gonna be flying big planes around the skies!:}

Yes there IS something you can do about it - choose not to accept it!!! After you've accepted it there's nothing you can do about it......... But PLEASE don't expect all the guys who are fighting to retain their T's and C's to fight your fight when it's you and yours that are steadily feckin' it all up!!! :ugh:

When we attempt to negotiate the next 5 year deal we will be doing so knowing that the company will just turn around and say "well if you don't like it beggar off and make way for Pressman and Carmoisine". Not even sorry if you don't like to hear it but THAT as they say IS THE FACTS!!!

I have been waiting myself since the end of July, and all I can say is that RYR doesn´t give a s**t about it people. Apart from being totally broke you have to put up with very rude people. I knew myself it wasn´t going to be easy, but unfortunately I didn´t have any othe job offers out of General aviation, and as long as I don´t get my T/R stamped, there isn´t much you can do. This only means that when I finally get through, I will end up caring about the company as much as they cared for me.

Wing Commander Fowler, At the training establishment were I did the TR the guy (Not Ryanair Staff) showed me the applications of people applying for the TR course.

3,500.

Three Thousand Five hundred. This is the reality. Its fine having your principles with X thousand hours jet time but consider those further down the ladder. If I thought it would work I would have stuck to my principles, and had no job. So the waiting list would have been 3,499. No matter what someone would take my place and that will NEVER change.

Like Cipri said, we haven't even started and we wouldn't pee on them if they were on Fire. They have used up any good will we had. Just gonna build our hours and leave asap.

Ok guys - reality check time!!! No one of us was BORN with 3000 hrs, we all started somewhere whether it was self funding through Oxford, queen betty's flying clubs or hour building. We then progressed into either proper companies which paid for jet type ratings (and yes they ARE still around but diminishing and you don't need a degree to work out why.....) or worked as instructors or got into the profession at the fundamental grass roots level and learnt our trade plying up and down in Turboprops. The fact that FR, EZ et al sh@ft you guys like they do is BECAUSE THEY CAN!!! Simple as that. The reason they take away our pensions and water and life's blood is BECAUSE THEY CAN!!! We are no different in reality ecxcept when you are "up the ladder" we are more vulnerable as a result of the replacements "further down the ladder" willing to pull the rungs away. Tell you what - you sort yourselves out and we'll do what we can for OUR selves and then we'll only have our respective selves to blame for the mess we respectively end up in ok? Deal? You have the choice - again I say "take it or leave it". We have the same choice and will indeed make that choice. For me, all here is sweet, when it's not it'll be sayonara - I shan't be calling you up to help - comprende?

5 year Pay deal for the established guys IMHO. :{

I don't want to dump on FR pilot employees who are undoubtedly suffering at the moment. But it simply has to be said that there are still a number of "scams" practised by Ryanair that have not been fully identified here - but that does not say that potential applicants have not, in effect, been warned repeatedly.

Neither does it say that there are not more than sufficient warnings here on prune for anyone who wants to listen (try doing a search here using the word "Ryanair" - it would take you about a week to read it all, but many of the threads provide very clear reading and warnings). Every story may not be literally true, but there is a point at which you have to be pretty dumb not to notice certain recurring themes, even on a rumour network.

The reality - which Ryanair counts on - is that there is always somebody who is willing to work for less than somebody else. Remarkably, Ryanair have even managed to employ captains, not to mention co-pilots, on quite low money at a time of pilot shortage. Salaries for permanent (note that) pilot employees continue to drop.

Here is what everybody needs to know: Last year (2004) a number of managers were informed that their pay would reflect the success of their efforts to reduced pilot costs (most definitely including pay). So people, WAKE UP. This means that a pilot who works for nothing is contributing to the management bonus of a very small group of managers. (You know them by their willingness to "deal directly" with you and "negotiate/offer" a deal that turns out to be worse than your colleagues). Any notion that the highly fragmented FR pilot group can hope to avoid the steady erosion of their income and conditions in the short term is living in a world of delusion. (Just after posting, I noted the post immediately above - it provides telling testimony to [a] this fragmentation, and [b] somebody who may also be living in a world of delusion).

The only group giving Ryanair a run for their money are the pilots in Dublin. Had they not fought back even the 3% paid earlier this year to FR pilots based elsewhere would not have been available (to try to persuade the others of the "value" of ERC's! Before some management lackey appears to tell us, yes I know it was not paid to the Dublin pilots.... but I'll think I'd bet they will get it in the end ... ).

You new guys should listen to the previous two posts because those boys are speaking the truth. As it appears they have been around the industry a while I would suggest you pay close attention.

Ryan Air has a TERRIBLE record of how it deals with its pilots. Some have stood up and done well while others have just gone elsewhere. You knew what the deal was when you signed the contract so stop whining. I do feel for you but the industry is booming so brighten up.

Someone asked which turbo prop airlines in the UK are hiring. Tell me one thats not and I will give you a prize because they all are. Every single one and they give you an type rating. 300 hour pilots don't really belong in 737's anyways as the natural progression is from turbo's to jets. Do this and you pay nothing.

The boys at Easyjet are raising a stink and me thinks management is going to listen. Young Ryan lads/ladettes should pay close attention.

Rant over.:mad:

The simple solution to this argument is - JOIN A UNION! ALL OF YOU!

O'Leary is sitting back laughing at you ripping each other up while he makes a mint off your dumb asses.

With a decent union it would be COMPULSORY for all new recruits to join the union before taking up employment. Then the T&C's of those new employees would be negotiated by the union - and would not be at the current slave labour standard which undermines the whole profession.

This is why O'Leary resists any talk of unions in FR - it sounds the death knell for exploitation.

But I won't hold my breath.

BBT - are you suggesting I'm deluded.......? :ugh:

He probably wondered why "all was sweet" at 0153 of a morn,but then he hadn't just become a pop-star. . .

W-C F, there is a possibility ... in one respect ... in which it is conceivable that I may have hinted, alluded or vaguely suggested that I was perhaps not entirely at one with what you had to say. However, having read your contributions in general I have to say that I would not wish to quarrel or enter into a disputation with someone who, in general, seems to me to have Ryanair's measure. (Also, if I had not had that extra whiskey last night I have no doubt that I could recall exactly what my point was and would mount a vigorous defense of my carefully reasoned position).

Hehe!!!! It's "TRUE"........ BBT you are forgiven! :O

Carmoisine

Please check your PM's

DMK

Carmoisine


I agree with you. I finished my TR FOUR months ago as well. No info, no pay, no nothing. And NOONE could ever imagine that the conditions were this bad. May I ask where you did your TR?

This should be a warning for people thinking about going to Ryanair. If I new this, I wouldn't have signed the contract. Even if it still is hard to get other jobs with low hours, people must have some dignity.

Let's hope we can finish our training, and go to a company who appreciates our work...

Avoid Ryan,

No, the delay was never mentioned. It seems to be a new phenomenon. I can't see how its going to get any better either in the medium term.

I wish they would just tell us what is going on.

Gentlemen (and any ladies too), with the greatest of respect this is not a new phenomenon. Like so many things in Ryanair it started slowly and those caught out first have tended to stay quiet as they invariably want a low profile. At the same time the initial stories are denied by either well meaning Ryanair pilots who are unaware of developments, or by management stooges who appear here to assure all and sundry that Ryanair is wonderful.

I have even talked to a pilot who told me, within weeks of joining, that he simply had not believed what was written here on pprune "I thought it had to be exaggeration" says he. In reality he probably heard the propaganda about Ryanair pilots being the best paid in the universe and could see nothing wrong with going for it.

Here's a couple of recent tidbits: the first couple of pilots on basic pay, but with no sector pay have arrived. Secondly, I recently spoke to a 4.5k hours co-pilot with a - mind boggling - basic of £18,000 p.a. He had been persuaded to take this due to the long delays in .... guess what .... line training - he found this to be preferable to debts and worries.

Now, what are the chances that somebody with such experiences are going to arrive here to announce that they have agreed to such conditions? Pretty low I would say. But that does not make it untrue.

Delwy,
Yeas its hard to come on here and admit you have been a fool. There are plenty of people as we have seen happy to jump into the warm waters of your own personal nightmare. They really do revel in it.

Its not easy to admit you made a huge mistake. My motivation for doing is it to warn others off making the same huge mistake.

Pressman, There are only three here, I refer you to paragraph one.Trust me: There are an awful lot waiting. I would say anything up to a hundred with a minimum of fifty.

Carmoisine, this willingness to publicise things is a relatively new phenomenon and, for me at least, it is greatly to be welcomed. (Also, you should be congratulated for your honesty and courage). BTW I think your numbers are about right; also I can tell you that some of those very people I know for a fact were given explicit advice not to sign up without clarifying their conditions of employment FIRST.

This Ryanair cycle goes back a few years, in which each successive group of pilot is employed on worse conditions that those who went before. Those who don't suffer thank the gods that they "escaped" while those who suffer note the absence of any support from their colleagues beyond a vaguely sympathetic "that's Ryanair for you".

However, those who feel comfortable will discover that when the pilot shortage is over Ryanair will come after them in the manner tested so successfully in spring of 2004. That will be the day when the whiners will be told that people like you (new, young, poorly paid pilots) are willing to take their jobs for less money. And it would not be a surprise that solidarity towards them would be slow in coming.

There is only one way this will end up, which is with everybody working for buttons and complaining about their colleagues, but not about Ryanair. Depressing stuff.

I asked lots of questions on interview day even made notes. It never occured to me to ask about this. I had read everything I could on here about the company and there was no mention of this problem.

I can't remember if it was on here that I first heard about it, but there were certainly German cadets earlier this year who had to make their way from Germany every month at their own expense to keep themselves in the system (I think it was here). Before that, lots of others ... common denominator: no income, lots of expenses. Anyway, at this stage people DO know (and will still join).

The problem is that everything about Ryan is based on rumours. You cannot trust any information from any source.
Anyway, here are mine:
1: we are app 100 waiting for line training
2: the management does not communicate with us
-no one from the management have contacted me to explain
the situation, and I have not dared to contact them because I have
been told that it may affect the future of my case
3: some of us are able to get ahead of the queu
-one guy on a course after mine has already had three
attempts on the base-check
-another one has started line-training with the rest of the course not
having completed the base check
What the heck is that all about?

Since the thread already has been hijacked, I feel the urge to take a swing at the ones naiv enough to think that guys going for TRSS are to be blamed for the current state of the industry. You obviously have been away from the bottom of the hierarchy so long that you have forgotten all about it. Good for you. As long as we have market forces, the newbies will pay for rating if it will improve their chances of getting work. But, when the pilot demand goes up , then no-one will pay for rating. And you cannot unite a bunch of people, getting rid of TRSS's, with nothing gluing them together (all individuals). And don't ever try to tell another person what is the best sollution in his/her life. There is virtually no other option than RYR for me. 500 app's. No job offers. You get very, VERY desperate after that crap. I signed the contract, having read everything on Pprune, small print on contract, but not one clue whatsoever about the waiting for line training. That is what this thread is about. Period.