Quote:

"I have not dared to contact them because I have been told that it may affect the future of my case"

Who told you that? Call Crewcontrol and see if they have any flying for you. But it will be difficult, as it's Christmas, and Dub will be busy with converstions. Free LTCs will be few and far between.

Sometimes you've got to stick your head above the parapet, If you don't ask you don't get no one will come calling you, and all the posting on PPRUNE is like pissing into the wind.

MK

IMHO this is WRONG - we are in a time of pilot shortage (relatively speaking) ... these, I have to say are actually the good times for those at the bottom and, more especially for those ready for an early command.

In other words, I think the days of inflexible and serious pilots shortages are gone forever. While that is just an opinion and only time can tell, I don't think it is an unconsidered opinion. In other words, the next generation of fALTP holders with 250 hours are already lining up with their hopes and debts ...... they will be even more desperate than the previous generation and will willingly work for next to nothing for their first job when the time comes. Ryanair has long known this and is sophisticated in its efforts to exploit such sentiments ... you, in turn, may come to see them in a different light.

I hear everybody is saying that there is a pilot shortage, but nevertheless there are thousands of people out there who can't land their first job. All I am saying is that if there was an option cheaper than TRSS I think eveyone would go for that. And you can't blame the individuals choosing to solve their mess with paying for the rating and subsequent job. The only sollution I see is a political one, the different governments must regulate the situation by laws, and start treating the lot as people and give them rights as other students. Doctors, lawyers all have a system around them, which keeps them together. The employers come to them, not vice versa. You can't demand that one fATPL holder shall choose not to pay for the rating.


MK: You ask who told me not to contact them...well, how about the screaming voice in the other end of the phone. Some of us try from time to time, you see. But anyway, thanks for the info about calling crewcontrol, that's totally new to me.
They don't tell me/us anything. If I'd had a time frame, I could go working elsewhere in the meantime. That is the most disturbing in this mess.

Believe me that guys that have been with Ryanair for some time do sympathize and indeed empathize with your position. Many have been there in the past. In fact at past town hall meetings ( I know there have been none recently) the newbie terms and conditions have been raised. The fact is there is little or nothing we can do about it.

To play devils advocate for a moment Ryanair is a business. Its objective is to make money. Any business will try to get money from its customers as early as possible and deliver its products as late as possible. You are Ryanair customers. You have paid them a considerable amount of cash. When they need you, you will go through training faster than sh1t off of a chromed shovel. For now they don’t need you, or more precisely can’t use you (Trainers high on hour, lack of captains etc). The culture for people coming into flying nowadays seems to be: get your qualifications as fast as possible, get the minimum required hours then join an airline and worry about the huge dept you have run up later. I know it was back in the old days when aircraft were steam driven and evolution was a thing of the future but most of us served our apprenticeship as flying instructors, dropping parachutists or towing banners building experience and adding ratings as we went. I think a lot of you guys are victims of the culture: I want it and I want it now.

I’m sorry if this is a harsh lesson for you and I am inspired by the way a couple of the posters on this thread have realised their own mistakes and taken the time to warn others. The only advise I can give is keep pestering them for training and do what you can to earn some cash in the meantime even if it means working in macdonalds for a few weeks. Good luck to you all and hope to see you on line ASAP.

idunno has the only solution.

i personally have no sympathy for you guys who buy your rating.you line up like a bunch of morons and part with your money,in turn screwing up the market.you do a chit chat with some knob from hr and then struggle through a 737 200 sim check.then most importantly sign the cheque.you come in with 200 hours and believe that you have earned the right to sit in the right seat.you cannot expect the respect of your peers and let the company ride roughshod all over you.you are no more than slaves and that is how you shall be treated.

From DJMixmaster
Errr... Actually there is. In fact TRSS people joining airline ranks/ GA companies are still a minority but then again you have to be that kind of guy.

As for asking Senior pilot to fight your corner "because it ain't your fault if the market is like that", believe me, there are plenty of issues they are fighting for and in turn once you have joined your airline of choice/FR, you might be grateful for that. There is nothing then can do if YOU want to pay for your rating thinking you are owed a living afterward.

You really don't get it, do you? I have struggled and fought my way too, you see. ..back in the old days, it was either taxi driver or airline pilot after examination. Some were fortunate, some were not. Now, the things have changed. We have a vast diversity amongst pilots. I could have chosen NOT to fulfill my ambitions, but I had the option which a lot of your fellow students presumably never had. Namely to pay for the TR. I am not demanding any sympathy from anyone. I am actually quite proud of myself, because I had the guts. Now I have 60k in total debts for the education, and still content. But when I am put on hold for an indefinite amount of time..I get pissed off. I could, as mentioned, work on McDonald's..not the problem at all. But we're regularly being rostered for circuit training in the sim, which pretty much excludes every possibility of working.
And Grim...what can I say..you're obviously the judge here and I am guilty of all charges. But if we had met, I think you'd seen things in a different perspective. (I am really not here to "call names", and the word decency comes to mind, but what the heck everyone is entitled to having their own opinion.)

We get it....... DO YOU???? Listen (listen to my typing hehe!), the buying of type ratings isn't new - guys have been buying type ratings for some considerable time now and THAT nobody has a problem with! What they DO have a problem with is guys selling up and working for toffee. By doing this you worsen the terms and conditions of all in the industry whether you like it or not. Given the choice, an employer (particularly the modern day workhouses like FR and EZ) are only interested in legally filling seats. Our illustrious FOD is on record as saying FR would only get involved with Boeing on the dreamliner if it was able to be flown by one pilot!

Given that case as long as they can find guys who will work for nought they will fill their boots. Don't do it. Carry on instructing or selling burgers until they come to their senses!

You make reference to your "shear unluck" - 97 was a while ago and many others in this time have got jobs both with the big guys and with the turboprop operators. Are you sure there's not another reason you haven't gained employment other than "unluck".........? :hmm:

Now that is the sort of criticism I can work with WCF.:D
But I have to refer to myself, because the problem here is that you cannot unite individuals, that don't even know the other ones exist. How can I solve the problem with refusing a job offer...not gonna happen. The authorities have the power, they can create a system which excludes this insanity. And about the "unlucky" bit WCF, you're spot on, more like in the twenties, not fully comprehending where the market is...(living on the north-pole).:E

Yes the pole is a bit of a problem but then you are joining the transport industry friend so "TRANSPORT"..... You obviously know that by now though as you have chosen to take an employer without a base in Lapland so well done on that point, the problem is how bigga sh@ft you are having to take for the pleasure :O

It's a shame perhaps that you weren't either willing or able (I don't know which of course) to transport earlier a move which MAY have enabled you to gain "honest employment". I wish you luck however (as I am human NOT a real chicken) and sincerely hope in 5 years down the line you are not reading a similar thread on Pprune being asked by new cadets who are flying for food with your pay down around the €10k per year mark.......

As for the authorities....... What exactly would you have them do? Peel open MOL's personal bank account and throw his money in the air like confetti??? There's an idea.......... :cool:

For what it is worth I think everyone is talking past each other. For understandable reasons mutual frustration is also showing itself. Each point of view is valid in its own context. But the "package of different contexts" leads to results that do not bode well for the future.

Just a reminder: on every occasion that Ryanair has been able to exploit divisions between different pilot groups they have done so without hesitation. When the pilot group has not been divided they found a method by which one lot could be separated from the others (utilising either greed or fear). With the exception of Dublin pilots (but only in recent times) this tactic has ALWAYS worked. However, that tactic is only required when the pilots look like sticking together - which does not happen very often.

The one thing that seems obvious is that falling out with each other is going to just make that process worse. And notwithstanding all the complaints about pilots associations, they look to me like the only hope (even if I don't see any signs of action). As I have said before, this is going to get a lot worse before it gets better.

There is a lot of info on www.repaweb.org any others waiting for line training should register there, lots of usefull info.

Well, WCF, there is a huge gap between the thousands of unemployed pilots, and all the vacant positions...Why is it that this gap doesn't exist in other occupations? I think the answer is that 1. Our education does not give us the training required to operate any plane in general. 2. There are different levels of aviation (Jets, turbos, twins, singles)and thereby leaving us with the predicament. 3. You are left alone after graduation. The authorities could fund (like they do with other educations) the education, and acknowledge it as a step towards getting a job.
Finally, the mentioned gap doesn't exist in many of the other occupations, this has to do with some kind of structure/system which we don't have.
RYR is just a piece of the market, which determines the actions of the (desperate) individuals like myself...

Grim Repa,

i am suprised by your post, i assume from your title you are inolved with repaweb? Cant you be more constructive with your posting?

For all those waiting patience is your only option, keep on at rostering. A friend of mine did his base check the other day and there was only 3 of them as no one else could be found. You need to be flexible, LTC's are high on hours and busy training already. The LTC's where i am based are flat out and have been for as long as they can remember.

Things will never change with ryanair or any other airline as a precedence has been set already many years ago, dont knock the guys who are trying to make their way in an extremly difficult industry it is not their fault things are like this.

If anyone has a sensible suggestion(s) that allows people to be employed but not pay for training within a reasonable period of time then i would love to hear. There are jobs available with compoanies that bond you but it requires just as much luck and dedication to get as being employed by a company that makes you pay.

How many people who are bonded paid for their intial training? Where is the difference? Ryanair did not pay for my CPL. Also, how can the current situation be blamed on new people just entering the indusrty at the bottom, this whole Type rating scheme has been going on for years (over ten) with many companies, the good'ol days are long gone. There is a much wider area associated with this being the consitent erosion of terms and conditions which are always negotiated by senior pilots/management. Perhaps is you chaps at the top with a nimby attitude which has f*@ked it for the rest of us?

food for thought.....

The industry tends to move in cycles Mixy, some analysts will quote seven, others eight yearly, peak and trough..... That said you're right there will always be a surplus of pilots and companies will take their pick as in any industry. How many accountants and tax collectors are there unemployed??? Not enough in my humble opinion but they are there trust me! Maybe there are more pilots spare because the job is still seen to be "special" by the uninitiated??? I dunno, I DO however know that we deserve no better treatment by the "authorities" than do any other professions in this world. We, after all, choose to do this job don't we? Back to the old "eyes wide shut" syndrome again. One small piece of advice for you tho' old chap - drop the "world owes me a living cos I spent 60k on myself" attitude - that is exactly why the beancounters hate pilots!!! And beanies run this airline.......... :{

sorry just caught this "Gem".......
So stick it out for the one that doesn't make you pay!!!

As for Nimby - wait til YOU are one and that time WILL come if indeed Nimby is the appropriate term which, to be frank, it isn't!!!

WCF

for some people waiting is not an option after a certain period of time discrete to themselves, what is your suggestion then? You cant ride the moral high ground and you cant deny people a living. This whole paying for your training is here to stay, i dont agree with it either but until i am senior enough i cant do a thing about it other than shuffle my way through the system as best i can. Until some support and unity is shown by people already employed we cant expect new joiners to accept anything else other than what is offered.

What are your ideas to improve the current situation? You seem very agitated and have offered nothing sensible. NIMBY is a perfect term - i dont see/hear you petitioning management.

No eagerbeaver I am not agitated, simply have an opinion..... Unless you haven't read this thread from the beginning I only came inhere when it was suggested that the existing guys "petition" for the new sacrificial goats...... And that is my point, that there is nothing we can or are prepared to do about YOUR lot. You were offered something and took it - well enjoy!!!

Oh and as for "until i am senior enough i cant do a thing about it" you will NEVER be senior enough until YOU own the airline and then the game will be yours to decide the rules........

yours,

bemused but NOT agitated

Fowler :ok:

i apologise to any individual insulted.what i have a problem with is people from union level down to mr. pay for your rating,is that they are not listening to what is being said and then scratching their head when they get screwed over.

YOU ARE AT SOME STAGE IN JOINING RYANAIR GOING TO GET F**KED OVER ROYALLY.THAT IS THE SIMPLE FACT.

cadets are two a penny and when you have paid your money,they have you by the balls and start squeezing right away.you are a necessary expense.one they would love to do without.any illusions you have about grandeur of a pilots life,well forget about it.read the posts and cut the romanticising!

ryanair is s**t,it is dragging the rest of aviation into the !!!! and when will the union and the pilots wake up and realise what is ahead.

WAKE UP!

From what I hear most Ryanair pilots don't join a union, so there is not much good asking a union, any union, to "wake up" in those circumstances, is there?

Eagerpussy ....... for your very ESSENTIAL education:-

NIMBY - not in my back yard, ie do it anywhere else but here.

My opinion - Don't fecking do it anywhere! (DFDIA if you insist).

As for me - NUMBP would be more appropriate - Not up MY back passage...... Hehe!

Good luck! :{

When I read how things are going with cadets that had invested in a type rating for the 737NG, I am glad that my interview was not successfull in early 2005! ;)
I was not keen enough to be "happy" with a cadet
package... so not suitable for Ryanair!

I didn't had to negociate a loan with my bank, I saved some €€€€, I am not stressed when I will start my line training...:uhoh:

Of course I am not flying now a beautyfull 737-800, unfortnatelly I am just flying a 737 classic now (and money going into bank account!!):ok:

SNAM what you describe is not "using" RYR, it is just ... working for them. I guess that you would, using a similar argument, accept that when eventually a first pilot job entails paying Ryanair for the type conversion and then working the first two years without pay that you would take the optimistic view and say "clever use of Ryanair to get a foot on the ladder"!

The trouble is that the ladder on which you would have stepped will by then not have anything like as many steps upwards that you might have hoped for.

DJ Mixmaster and Carmoisine

Lots of nice and correct info..As we are in the same boat, there is not much to do than to give other pilots a warning. Things have been bad before with Ryanair, but not THIS bad. Very unfortunate for us..

I have already started to apply for other jobs, even though I doubt the management in Ryanair would not like that. What we will have to do, is what they do: Think about ourselves.

As far as I know, according to the FAR, there is a regulation on a maximum of 60 days between TR and Linetraining. Then the TR is unvalid. Does anyone now if there is a regulation like this in the JAR?

JAR–FCL 1.235 Type and class ratings – Privileges, number and variants

(4) The type rating course, including theoretical kowledge, shall be completed within the 6 months preceding the skill test.


So what happens when the rating is not completed withing the six months as some people are headed towards?

Carmoisine and Dj Mixmaster

I have done some research in the JAR-OPS. It states:

[(c) Following completion of a Zero Flight Time
Conversion Course a pilot shall:
(1) Commence line flying under
supervision within 15 days; and
(2) Conduct his initial four take-offs and
landing in the aeroplane under the supervision of a
TRI (A) occupying a pilot’s seat.]

There must be some regulations for us guys doing a FULL TR as well.. I mean..The guys doing a conversion course knows how line operations work..We are the ones that needs continuity most!

Let me know if you find something more..

Pardon my sense of humour but I just found this pic and could not resist.

http://pub.tv2.no/multimedia/na/arch...sj_200729c.jpg


:{

The politics of failure.....episode 42.
 

Come on Dim Repa, tell the truth. What you really mean is that people are not listening to you, isn’t that right? In case all these eager young pilots missed what sort of person you really are, here it is again. The truth as to what Dim Repa and those like him really think of your struggles to create a career for yourselves.
Warms the cockles of the heart, doesn’t it. He who on the one hand advocates union membership, the ultimate statement of fraternal solidarity, and on the other, berates, humiliates and demeans anyone else having the effrontery to take responsibility for themselves and get on with it. Unbelievable! Why don’t you tell all the nice people about your personal struggle to become an airline pilot, Dim Repa? Tell everyone how hard it was for you to gravitate to the right hand seat on a Boeing 737–800 that you currently occupy, raking in as you do, nearly £4000 after tax every month? I’m sure all these keen young things would like to know why it is, exactly, that they should continue to flip burgers in a truly heroic display of solidarity, so that you and your ilk can benefit from being held in somehow higher esteem by your employer? Share it with an eager world, would you?

To those of you struggling with temporary inconvenience at the beginning of your careers, I commend you wholeheartedly. Although I am a Ryanair Captain now and have been for years, the beginning of my career was anything but easy. There are no accidental airline pilots. The one prevailing truth you should bear in mind as you wade through page after page of the terminally aggrieved ninnies who bitch and moan here on Pprune, is this. The thing that separates success from failure is determination, patience and constant effort. Make no mistake, you have achieved an inspirational beginning to your careers, and no matter where our magnificent enterprise takes you, you can have few finer starts to it than in a brand new, EFIS Boeing, amassing hours at a rate of 900 per year. Measured against that, is having a little extra patience while our training department increases its capacity so much to ask for? Performance, my young friends, is a reflection of attitude.

Leo..whilst it pains me to say it, I have to agree with your last paragraph. Although having said that, grims comments are spot-on, and Ryainair to their shareholders eternal benefit continue to ride rough over the aspirations of many crews.

One more thing Leo....do you have a parrot on your shoulder? cos your so one eyed you've gotta be wearing an eye patch most of the time:rolleyes:

Damn, when I have Leo fighting my cause I know I have made a REALLY big mistake. Doesn't get much worse then that.

They don't have a training department, they have a bunch of monkeys F##$ing a football from what I have seen. They couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery.

Perhaps Leo you could reassure these guys by telling them when they will start training.

The JAR-OPS 1.945 states clearly how training shall be done. 15 days is the maximum between the TR course and line flying under supervision! Period!

I don't know how EMA Training can justify scheduling us once a while for some touch'n go's in the simulator, and still be within these regulations?? OK..If they do it ONCE..Alright..But for 5 months??

I am sure the guys down at the JAA in The Netherlands were not thinking about this tricks when they wrote the regulation..And I am sure they would like to know about it..Then probably EMA Training would be a little more helpful..

hi leo,
must be so great to be a CAPTAIN.even more so when you consider that there are no ACCIDENTAL AIRLINE PILOTS.how was it,GRAVITATING to the left hand seat of that shiny new boeing 737-800.must have been a relief after that UNEASY START to your career and all that PATIENCE,DETERMINATION and CONSTANT EFFORT.well i commend you WHOLEHEARTEDLY and hope this MAGNIFICENT ENTERPRISE takes you into the ever expanding "training" department and you can give us a real PERFORMANCE.remember it is all a REFLECTION OF ATTITUDE.

the collins 2006 thesaurus is out,i will sling you a copy for christmas.no hard feelings about the ass kicking coming your way.NOTHING PERSONAL.

I have read through the JAR-OPS 1.945, and mine might be out-of-date, but I can't find anything about the 15 day limit, and just to point it out: this paragraph is for conversion course. Not full typerating course. I checked it up with my authorities which confirms my understanding of it; There is no time limit between end of TR end commencement of linetraining. If it did, what about all of those funding their own TR without any job offer...?
But they told me that the basecheck/circuits is regarded as part of LST, in the sence that the mentioned time limit of 6 months from start of TR to LST is applicable-we need to have completed the circuits before the 6 months have elapsed.

Why don't you explain to us Leo how soon all these newbies, suffering a "temporary inconvenience" at the start of their careers will earn the alledged £4000 net per month? Lets keep it honest and talk about when it will actually happen and not when the management say it will, shall we?
As a so-called FR captain, maybe it's you, not Grim Repa, who should be revealing what YOU think of the new cadets. You're happy to sit there and earn what you say is £10,000 net, whilst the reality of the new cadets pay is that it's barely enough to buy food. And then you tell them to be thankful. Warms the cockles of the heart alright :yuk:

DJ Mixmaster

JAR-OPS 1.945 Conversion training and
checking

(2) A flight crew member completes an
operator’s conversion course before commencing
unsupervised line flying:
(i) When changing to an aeroplane
for which a NEW TYPE or class rating is
required; or
(ii) When changing operator;

JAR-OPS 1.950 Differences training and
Familiarisation training

(1) Differences training which requires
additional knowledge and training on an
appropriate training device or the aeroplane;
(i) When operating another variant
of an aeroplane of the same type or another
type of the same class currently operated; or
(ii) When changing equipment
and/or procedures on types or variants
currently operated;

The way I see it, is that we go under the conversion course paragraph. The guys that change from e.g a classic to a NG goes under the other paragraph.

It makes sense that the 15 days rules apply to us as well. If have sent an email to my authorities as well to clarify this..Will keep you posted..

avoidryan: you've got mail

Hi All, this is my first posting on the Prune Network. I interviewed for the Brookfield contract up at EMA recently and am writing this message from my home in the U.S. I'm a 14,000 hour pilot with most of it in 737's and most of it in the left seat. I have about 2,500 hrs command time in 737-700's and just quit my U.S. job in October so I'm still current. It's all U.S. experience, and I have never even looked at the study material for the JAA conversion -- my "other full time job" for six months if I take the contract, which is in on my desk awaiting signature. My primary aims are probably quite different from most of yours: I'm single, early 40's, really love visiting Europe, and actually wouldn't mind living out of my suitcase for a couple of years, get my JAA lic., see lots of new places, then come back to my ranch in California. I know I'll be working like a dog, but my question out to you all is: does this seem like a reasonable plan, given my motivations? Open to all responses.

Cheers.

jimbaba, ... if Ryanair is your target you would have no hope of guaranteeing anything.

In general terms, the main problem you currently have is that you will have a series of assumptions based on U.S. experience that do not translate beyond the borders of the U.S. so you are likely to "assume" certain things that will turn out to be incorrect. LOTs of research required.

Ryanair has not been particularly successful in attracting U.S. pilots, most of whom seem to have been able to spot their funny ways. Reading this thread, alone, should alert you to the need for caution. If you are in ALPA I suggest you get in contact with them as I heard one of their people speak about Ryanair in a very informed manner a few months ago.

jimbaba, i think you might be in a position where you don't have to do the 14 JAA ATPLwrittens "A minimum of 3,000 hours as pilot of public transport aircraft over 30,000 kgs MTWA on scheduled international or similar routes, a minimum of 1,500 hours of which must have been as Pilot-in-Command."
I think you might want to check this with the CAA,i stand to be corrected.
I believe they should take this 'backdoor' out,but if these are the rules,good luck.
:cool:

hazehoe, I think you meant that he needs to check it with the IAA? There should be no difference, but Ryanair are keen that the IAA be used for licence issue purposes. I have forgotten what they said in a memo ... something like "the only Authority that knows how to interpret the JARs appropriately". (Which is the dumber, thinking this or putting it in writing?!).