Pilots leaving Easy
 

net number of pilots leaving easy: 6-8 per month
(net number: new entrants minus leaving)
additional aircraft per month: 2-4

Combined this adds up to a increase in pilot shortage by ~30 per month!

When will easy have to cancel flights, because of staff shortage? Oh, sorry! That already happend...

Will the current negotiations bring an improvement?

I shouldnt imagine so, most first officers I know are seriously considering leaving. I think it will take a huge change to T + Cs to make it an airline that people could see themselves working their whole career for.

I will even go so far as to say that it would take a complete change in management mentallity to make me stay. I dont need a payrise, I just want to be treated like a human being ( I am working my third christmas on the trot this year !!!!) and that seems to be impossible for this company. Could be an amazing airline to work but they seem to not want to be one.

I doubt that EZY will have to cancel flights as most people leaving are SF/O´s and there is no shortage of potential TRSS F/O´s.

The reduced flying over the winter will provide enough time to train F/O´s for the next onslaught: SUMMER 2006! :ouch:
I hope to have escaped this orange brainwashed outfit by then.

Besides that, a quick fix is already in place by forcing captains to fly in the right hand seat. (helluva expensive F/O for a "low cost airline" but logic thinking has never been a strong point in the PortaCabin Palace...:rolleyes: )

Things will get hairy IMO when captains start to leave and EZY will not have enough 3500-4500 hour F/O´s available to upgrade. That´s when the proverbial sh!t will hit the fan.

p.s. JJ 737, I do want a payrise (hell! they can afford it!!) and I do want to be treated as a human being. (doesn´t cost much) It´s the lack of willpower of the employees to make it a better outfit which gives management the carte blanche to screw us over!

Captains will start to leave easy but it will sadly only be a trickle as it is not as "easy" to find a direct entry command these days. there will be the odd few that are prepared or are indeed young enough to accept a move to the right hand seat in order to move on.

F/o's leaving will be playing onto the hands of management as they will be replaced by TRSS guys that are waiting to be taken on. Sorry to the guys that have chosen this route but TRSS is the cancer of the aviation industry and should be stamped out at all costs!

No other proffesion pays so much in order to get what is essentially an average job so why do pilots insist on doing this!

Are you joking, Direct entry captains are like gold dust at the moment throughout the industry.

Send out a few C.V's and watch the stampede!

In order to 'stamp out' TRSS and the like it would require a concerted and very well organised 'NO' from each and every young(ish) person out there seeking employment with an airline.

The airlines would have absolutely no choice but to change their policy.

The same principle applies to recruitment charges like simulator assessments etc.

It would be genuinely marvellous if it were to happen and go some way to restoring this industry to what it once was, but who's gonna organise it?

TRSS is here to stay IMHO. That is not to say I like it - market forces are such that it will be very difficult to get rid of it.

I would also like to add my voice to that of others - I do want a payrise. I also want a serious attack on other issues such as pension contributions and private medical care (ie the lack of them!). I personally like working for easyJet but 'the ship is being spoiled for a hape'worth of tar'. This will always be a place where people work hard and there is no way round that. The problems at easyJet are well documented and the sad thing is they are about to lose scores of pilots when they did not have to. A bit of sensible management could go a huge way to dealing with the issues.

Its not just FO's leaving - Captains are also taking downgrades into FO jobs at Emirates/BA etc.

Flaps One

"but who's gonna organise it?" - That is your problem - if the current pilots can't do it no one else will. Why leave it to the people at the bottom of the pile to protect your income? The current pilots have the leverage with employers - not the unemployed wannabes.
20driver

You misunderstand me 20driver. There's nothing that can be done from within.

For guys already working here it's too late to do anything. They have already signed binding contracts for loans/bonds etc.

The only people who can influence what happens from now on are the guys who are yet to join.

If no-one (external orgnisation?) accepts a TRSS deal (or similar with other operators) companies will be forced to re-think their recruitment policies.

Well, I don't understand why people should want to leave!

We have an industry leading roster pattern that the vast vast majority of pilots love and voted for. We are all far less tired than we have ever been under the previous unsafe roster, and we have even more time off. Plus we got an unbelievable pay rise at the last negotiation. All the reps involved were quite rightly applauded by all the pilots for securing us such a fantastic working enviroment.

That is the case isn't it?


:ok:

Flaps One

As I´ve told you before, TRSS is there because the CC allows it.

Why is there no TRSS with Virgin Atlantic or BA?
Not because of a "very well organised 'NO' from each and every young(ish) person out there seeking employment with an airline," as many BA and Virgin new recruits come from EZY and Ryanair!

It´s naive to believe that those people joining BA or VA wouldn´t pay for (yet another) type on a 777 or A340 if that would land them a job with a well established career airline, something EZY is NOT!

BA or VA don´t have a TRSS scheme because the CC won´t allow it. Simple as that.

Your failure to believe that change is possible from within might explain the current discontent within EZY... :ooh:

BTW, slightly off topic, what exactly is going on with the T&C´s of MXP? Apart from a vague thread about the bidding list on the BALPA site there is NO info!

Another reason for EZY pilots to make a preemptive move and leave?

Yeah yeah, but EZY still offers a realistic £80k a year Boeing/Bus command by the age of 30 for a lot of people and in places not connected with Heathrow or Gatwick.

If you want Virgin Longhaul or BA queing so much then resign and go there.

The numbers leaving EZY are tiny in relation to the size of the operation so either join BALPA, resign, or stop whining.

Cheers

WWW

ps There IS NO perfect job - that's just a myth put about by management.

Smells like
 

Smells like Ryanair...

Looks like the industry is finally buckling under the realities of properly supporting staff and justifying the investment it takes to get here...

people will have the hard realities of long waiting lists till command in the legacy carriers or face uncertain T&Cs with command before youre 30 hit them at a very early stage in their game (within a year of joining the industry), and it wont bear well for those aspiring hopefulls, who will start thinking twice...

the industry on a whole is going to have to seriously reconsider its direction with staff management, and the first guys to take the blow will be the low cost carriers...

may you live in interesting times...

WWW.

You must be management, or at least have the potential. I am a Captain on the Bus and will be handing in my notice next month. "If you don't like it then leave" ..... Bye.

Wee Weasley Welshman

I am afraid that you are very naive. Just because it is the airline that you work for, doesn't mean that you have to be so defensive of it.

These quick commands are only around becuase of the current rapid expansion.

It will not last, expansion will slow right down, then you will be looking at 10 years to command.

Voting with your feet is not always an option because of the seniority system in other airlines.

The best way is to not shut up but to whinge to the management, but constructively, maybe threaten to park the aeroplanes, then things might get done.

Somewhat 'off thread' but......

The TRSS scheme itself has nothing to do with Balpa. How on earth could it be stopped by the CC?

Balpa never introduced the scheme.
Balpa never endorsed the scheme.

It's there because the company introduced it a few years ago and people signed up and paid for it.

As long as guys joining are prepared to sign up to such a scheme, and it remains legal, without 100% backing from 100% of the pilot workforce, options to counter it are someone less than extremely limited.

The CC does try and help 'police' the scheme (as it has done recently with all the hype about the AHC payment element) and all that data has been made available to Bapa members.

Look very carefully at BA and Virgin and you will see more than 90% of their pilots are members of Balpa. That's exatly how you get control over such issues. It's an old argument but it's true.

Furthermore, as far as I know, there aren't any 'special lists' for MXP, neither are there any 'special terms and conditions' which is why there is no debate or comment. The only thing that has been announced I believe is that there will be some sort of 'bidding window' for transfer applicants - that's it.

I would strongly suggest that if you have any fact about management plans to introduce degraded Ts and Cs at MXP - or any other base for that matter- you make those facts known to the CC ASAP rather just posting a vague runour on PPrune.

If such rumours turn out to be true (and I hope they are not!) then the CC will, without doubt, respond appropriately but they cannot act on the basis of a rumour.

Not management, not naive. Just saying what I see.

Good luck to all that join and all that leave. More BALPA members I believe is the only way forward. The Cons and the Pros are there for all to see and indeed to base their judgements on.

Tell me which other airlines can offer you, within 5 years, an £80k+ job in Scotland, South West, North East, Midlands, Liverpool (don't know how to regionalise that), Northern Ireland or indeed Paris, Germany or Milan on a modern type?

I wish to be no advocate. Yet the reality is plain to see.

Be it recruits from lesser 737/Bus operators, TRSS cadets or any ailing regional airline, EZY faces no shortfall in eager recruits.

Much to my lament. Yet tales of imminent recruitment disaster abound.

I think unfounded. Unfortunately.

Cheers

WWW

Where is this this 80k salary coming from ? 67 last time I checked.

+10k sector +10% loyalty. I don't wish to enter into a protracted argument - you might persuade me if nothing else. But the deal ain't terrible and recruitment nor retention is a problem. Hope it becomes so but that's a different matter to posting yet another easy-exodus thread. Heard it before - twice.

Cheers

WWW

WWW,

"leavers from lesser bus/737" operators?

Who are they then?

Take the balloon out of your arse and stop puffing.....

You never change!

Weasley-

In the last year at my base 14 pilots have left which is way over the 10% attrition rate JP/PT and co are happy to see and apparently account for. If that is the case for one 8 aircraft base then there will be a problem. As usual with eJ it will be a case of horse and bolted.
Our T & C's have been steadily eroded year after year. Could even 100% balpa membership make any difference? Last year some members didn't even vote!!!!!

By the way www, your alter ego on the balpa forum seems to sing from a different song sheet................????????????????????

Capt. Paul

I joined easy on TRSS, having already flown a jet with another company, but it was the only way this company wanted to hire me. But even though I had to (and still do) pay for my type, they still almost doubled my salary! Now before I get everybody saying I personally killed the industry bla bla bla and etc.
I was then trying to pay back my loan and live at the same time on 18,500 a year. easyJet offered me 35,000 plus flightpay. I didn't care what it was called, it was what I needed to do, so I did it.
So it is not all black and white gentlemen, not every TRSSer out there is actually a low hour pilot begging for a job. My old company wasn't about to go bust either, for me it was plain economics: It was the best offer on the table and I needed a change badly!

I guess what I am trying to say is that if the sceme indeed didn't exist, it would have been good because for me as well because I would now earn more.
But if you put yourself in my situation back then, you might understand why I did it. You may then also see it is not the unemployed pilots fault who are happy to accept anything handed (logically).
It is because there is a surplus of pilots on the market. If there weren't enough pilots around, the company wouldn't be able to fill all the trss slots. So then they would have to offer extras to get people to fill 'em, and that would be the end of it.
But you can't expect an individual to hold out for the better of the whole! THAT is what i call naive!

And to everyone who proclaims here that it is the TRSSers fault and that we ruin the market and so on: I would love to see you when your company goes bust and you find you have the choice between a TRSS job and no job. Ofcourse you will then not care about your family, your morgage, and repayments on your pilot loan.. No, because you care ONLY about the greater good of the pilot community and therefore you will rather leave aviation then to take thát job and possibly make the next pay negotiations slightly more difficult for your fortunate (ex)colleagues that still have their job.

Yeah right. Wake up, smell the coffee. I agree with Flaps One, if the community gets together and organizes you are strong. You can achieve things. You might even get easyJet to drop the TRSS! And then Mr. Bokkenrijder and Mr. Flaps One could be friends again as well. Wouldn't that be nice?

:ok:

Wee Weasley Welshman,

Quote:"Yet tales of imminent recruitment disaster abound"


Just curious what exactly do you mean by that ?

Cheers

Smiert

"Plus we got an unbelievable pay rise at the last negotiation."

Mr Ree is obviously joking....

Easyjet will face recruitment problems in the coming year. Not only from pilots leaving in largish numbers but from the recruitment departments inability to cope with reality. The company should have promoted a large number of FO's months ago but didn't. Now they have little choice. This will leave a large number of new captains and a large number of new (trss?) FO's who can't fly together initially. Couple that to a crewing department who in fairness are overstretched and chaos will reign.
Virtually every FO I have talked to recently has something in the pipeline..mainly BA / Virgin...even those coming up for command. Plenty of captains are talking of it too. Some are even considering other careers.
Easyjet is certainly not the worst place to be in aviation but things are starting to creak at the seams now. You know things are getting rough when people start talking of applying to Ryanair. I'll give that one a miss unless they anounce 5/4/5/4!

WWW

Got to agree with autobrake3. Wages not good. Conditions lamentable. People leaving left right and centre. Please, don't embarrasse yourself. Management ~ HELLO

It's so easy to lose track of fact and fiction on this forum.

For the last 5 years I have frequently heard of 'hoards of pilots leaving easy' but the company is still going and now with 10 times as many aircraft as when I joined. Just do a search on the topic. The company should have folded years ago.

- Everyone is now leaving, but I've only met 3 of them (and it's a damn shame those guys are leaving).

- This is the 5th year of impending recruitment disaster.

- The pay packages are slightly better than industry standard (both Balpa and IPA agree on that).

To those leaving - All the very best and great success.

To those staying (for whatever reason) - Together, as a united group, we can make this a better place to work (not overnight!).

Divided we haven't got a cat's chance in hell!

nimbuscumulus
Agree completely!

True, but don´t you agree that it´s getting worse every year?

That´s not how I interpreted that brochure mailed to me by BALPA about 2 months ago regarding pay and pension.

You can't accuse TRSS pilots of spoiling the system. The choice is pay up or don't get the jet job. I am ex-mil helicopter instructor with 5000 hours and am just about to apply to Easy. The roster seems like hard work but I will cope. The package is way better than I get in the helicopter industry. I want to work in liverpool etc etc. If I manage to get in, (not that simple) I will be better off overall, but I know I will work my backside off to get it.
It sometimes seems simple to criticise us wannabees when you already have a job. We can have 'principles' and boycott companies to end the type rating self funding but that does not pay my mortgage. The TRSS system (right or wrong) is good business economics for the company and I dont see a shortage of people willing to pay the money..........

It's all well and good having a regional base and a 'decent' salary to go with it but if the conditions within the company are poor and management do not hold their crews in high regard then what do you expect -- of course people will leave regardless of rank.

I think the recruitment 'problem' has stayed about the same for the last 3 years or so. The database seems full and there is apparently no shortage of applicants (TRSS). Whilst that remains the case I don think EZ will change anything on the recruitment front.

It is a fact that there too many people (but I have no idea how many) leaving a company that is successful and in profit. God help us if we were not making money!

Southwest has queues of joiners at the door and no-one wanting to leave. Now that's the way it should be done.

The pension is crap, the pay is good, but nowhere near good enough for what we are doing to earn it. That needs to be addressed.

Q: What's the difference between a pilot and an aircraft engine?

A: The engine stops whining when the plane reaches the gate! :p :p :p

Nice on Automatic
What I cant understand is that RYR Pilots work to 6/3 and never seem to moan but EZY crews?. 5/4/5/2 = 130+ days of a year.
Me 104 maximum, 24/7 on call blah blah blah

:\

No, Ryanair pilots work 5/3 and a cursory search here should reveal that we also feel the need for a good moan from time to time, same !!!!! different flavour. . .

Mr Angry
The differance is in perception!
If you take a job at FR you are under no illusions, you know that you will work your arse off but you will be paid accordingly. yuo know that you will have no support if you screw up. yuo know that you will get absolutley nothing for free ans therefore expect nothing!

At easy however you are told that "our people are important " and various other modern "yankie management speak" bollocks however when it comes to delivering the nice cuddles etc. you get S.F.A. What we have is the same sh!t as FR but with a much lower take home pay!

If management took on the full FR set up then we would all know exactly where we stand and I think that is the differance between the two outfits. That said I would need to be unemployed before considering a move to FR.

Flaps one you appear to have become a little orange did you apply for the vacant base captains job then? Good luck to you if you did.

Fair enough except EZY Pilots should have been aware when they signed up they were expected to work hard. You also have one of the most restrictive working practices to support you (CAP371) as well as the working time direc tive yearly duty limits. In summary EZY can only work you so hard until a rule flags up.

:\

Flaps One,

You state:

- The pay packages are slightly better than industry standard (both Balpa and IPA agree on that).

Please compare like for like. Our Salaries need to exceed those offered by other Jet airlines, for the following reasons.

1. No private medical insurance cover.
2. A poor pension contribution from the company
3. No interline staff travel arrangement.
4. No critical ilness/PHI cover
5. The company now aim to Achieve, what was one regarded as a legal yearly limit of 900 hrs. Other airlines pay a premium for anthing over 750 hrs.
6. Regular lengthy 4 sector days with 20 min turnarounds.
7. Loss of bonus for F/O's
8. 5 very early starts, between 0455 and 0600. Which most Pilots I know voted against.
9. No day off payments, even though the company now require Pilots to work anything up 0130hrs into a day off, without even another day off in lieu.
10. Loss of one weeks leave, following the fantastic pay deal 2004 which Mr Ree mentioned.This was below RPI. 4% over 18 months equates to 2.66% over 12months.


By the way, apart from the large number of F/O's and Captains leaving, there are at least 3 training Captains that I know have definitely resigned over the last month

Need I say any more
:ugh:

The Times ran an interesting piece today on work and stress, and funnily enough it bore an uncanny likeness to life as a line pilot at notsoEzy.

Of the 5 items guaranteed to drive you to an early grave, only 3 boxes need be ticked. As usual easyJet strives to meet the highest standards and thus all 5 boxes can be ticked.

1. Heavy workload. How about 100 hrs a month for starters in incredibly busy airspace?

2. Unreasonable boss. A bit iffy, but those at Gatwick recently recieved an outstanding letter from the Big Chief that neatly ticks this box.

3. Disorganisation. Reserve period? Enough said.

4. Unrealistic targets. 20 minute turnarounds that always take 40 mins.

5. Tight deadlines. Schedules that rely on 20 minute turnarounds.

The good news is that the article goes on to say that the bosses don't actually have to change anything, as all these stress inducing factors can be managed by the individuals at work.





:{

An endless circular discussion and one that has been done to death over the last 18 months.
Just for the hell of it, my last comment on this topic:

1. No private medical insurance cover.
Agreed
2. A poor pension contribution from the company
Agreed – I said that didn’t I?
3. No interline staff travel arrangement.
Like many others
4. No critical ilness/PHI cover
Agreed
5. The company now aim to Achieve, what was one regarded as a legal yearly limit of 900 hrs. Other airlines pay a premium for anthing over 750 hrs.
Who doesn’t nowadays? (It’s still wrong though!)
6. Regular lengthy 4 sector days with 20 min turnarounds.
EZ Hours limits less than Cap371. Only 3 LGW destinations with 20 min turnrounds (still unachievable!)
7. Loss of bonus for F/O's
Agreed
8. 5 very early starts, between 0455 and 0600. Which most Pilots I know voted against.
Only 2 more than Cap371. Majority voted in favour.
9. No day off payments, even though the company now require Pilots to work anything up 0130hrs into a day off, without even another day off in lieu.
It’s not a requirement, that’s incorrect. Only 5 consecutive FDPs. Much better than the previous (6/3) system which allowed overruns to 0330hrs from day 6 into 7 without compensation of any sort.
10. Loss of one weeks leave, following the fantastic pay deal 2004 which Mr Ree mentioned. This was below RPI. 4% over 18 months equates to 2.66% over 12months.
Contractual annual leave entitlement pre and post agreement are identical. Work already well under way to restore similar combination of delivery of leave and days off as before. You divided 4 by 1.5 and got 2.66. Flawed method I'm afraid and thus not an accurate reflection of what it really is.

Without doubt, there's bucket loads to fix and until it's fixed people will keep leaving. Whether that's in floods or trickles remains to be seen. Let's just hope management wake up and respond appropriately.