I'm not planning to leave. Not through any misplaced notion of loyalty, but simply because it suits my needs at this particular moment in time.

Additionally, I'm resigned to the fact that my employer considers me to be nothing more than a resource that costs X amount of pounds an hour.

The endless merry-go-round of debates about them being ba***rds and us having the power to change things if we unite sadly smacks of tiring futility.

Markets forces will allow a small change in the equilibrium but the world is changing and the perception employers have of their employees (read: cost base) is like everything else in our lives ........disposable

Mr Ree

Not highly recommended as you put it......just recommended. That is because your CC will have spent weeks, and probably months, saying NO on your behalf until something has materialised that they believe is acceptable.

That only happens when the offer is considered acceptable and unlikely to be improved without escalation.

Alternatively, if an impasse is reached, your CC would propose a NO vote to give an appropriate mandate to go further.

Do you honestly really think that smaller bargaining groups at individual bases would have a cat's chance in hell of achieving anything? Surely not!

Flaps one - fair enough. But all I know is that the present system of 5/2/5/4 is not sustainable for everyone I talk to at my base. Thats not most, or nearly etc, but everyone.

I only know of one guy who voted for it at my base, and he now regrets doing so. Obviosly it works for the Luton and Edinburgh guys cos they voted in huge numbers for it.

But the one size fits all philosophy is no longer working, as is demonstrated by all the postings. Whats good for one base isn't neccessarily good for another.

How can one group CC represent all the differing requirements of each of the diverse bases? It is definately broken, and so needs fixing. How, I don't know yet.

We agree on something!

Get everybody on board, together with a common goal, behind a motivated and able CC (which they are), and we might just get there.

Alternatively, if we ever end up with several hundred wotsisnames who say they'll only join when the battle is won, we may as well all retire now!!

The way I'm feeling, I'm ready to retire!! Absolutely shagged! And it's definately not the wifes fault!
Oh well, a couple of days off and I'll be in the crew room, all keen and up for it again.:)
Actually, a pretty stirring speach by Norman on another post might get everyone motivated. Right now, my head hurts and I'm going to bed. Just have to tell the kids to be quiet. Again.:ok:

Mr Ree
It's nothing to do with BALPA having the gumph to say no....it's about them thinking that what the management offer is not reasonable and having a mandate to escalate beyond negotiation if an empasse is met. That mandate is having sufficient members all wanting more, and prepared to back their CC in the process. The CC will then make a judgement as to whether further manoeuvring using their mandate could yield a positive result. Only then will they recommend a 'No' vote and put the ball back into management's court.

It seems that the Easy pilots have a significant number amongst them who still don't quite understand that this is how it works and it's not a case of BALPA lacking 'gumph', merely that they (your Company Council, NOT BALPA) have no further 'levers' to use to show management that they want more and are prepared to stand united to get it. It's a catch 22 until everyone realises that only through a united front (be it BALPA or any other body) can they actually say 'NO' to a management offer and then be in a position to do something to achieve their demands. All the time non-members try to judge BALPA in easyJet based on results whilst they don't have a mandate, they are bound to think it is not worth 1%. It takes a bit more forethought and some faith.

Good luck to you all.

PP

Guys,

I was one of those 230 pilots who left ( March 2005), to move to the desert, did the different basing ploy on upgrade (LTN and BFS) worked the random roster and 6 and 3, not 5254 (although I voted against it!)

I did just under 4 years at EZY, fun sometimes, kna**kered most of the time, and thought that if I didn't leave I would either lose the medical ( thou fatigue) or kill someone/myself due a mistake(thou fatigue)

Good things about EZY,

The training is brilliant ( 3rd airline now, still the best for initial and recurrents by a long,long way)

Most flight and cabin crew were great to work with, personalibly and professionally.

Money wasn't bad,( althou not enough for the pound of flesh they wanted off you!)

Good equipment (althou the older 300's were more challenging!)

A few more but not anything to write home about.

Bad things,

Knack**ed!
Fatigued!
Roster instability,
Long 4 and 6 sector days (2 sector 8 hour duty qualifies as a half day, so the management plegde that office/admin staff should have the same number of days off/leave as they sit on their asr*s is a bit rich)
Crew food is a joke
staff travel is f**king appalling( based in BFS for the command, and not being able to get home on your days off really winds you up, not to mention the other half)
A lot more too mention, but I haven't got all day

So in conclusion,

I now work for EK, and as regular ppruners know, there is a lot writen about their T and C's lately, not that great compared to BA/Virgin etc. and quite a few thinking about leaving and hence asking me about EZY,

It takes me less than 5 mins to disuade them them that that move would not be in their best interests, to put it mildly!!!:oh:

There have been 5 others join EK from easy in the last 6 months, 4 of them were left seat, taking right seats for a minimum of 3 years, it not be the best around but I haven't heard any regrets from any of them! We do work to the 900 hr limit, but the Duty time are less, the days off are more, and we have a life outside our cockpits!!

Therefore if you must join EZY, do so, get great training, get some hours and get out as soon as possible!!

And PS don't blame BALPA, they are doing the best they can with 51% membership

I was about to post all of the above but you beat me to it!!!
Memories of Easy;

POSITIVES=good training,quick hours

NEGATIVES=permantly feeling knackered,orange propaganda(labour spin stlye)

Pilot Pete...I hear you....trouble is...why would anyone want to be based in Doncaster..( Im sure its lovely:rolleyes: )

very informative thanks a lot

haughtney1

Why would one have to be based in Doncaster? With the fleet expansion plans one could be based at Manchester or Gatwick (are they big enough for you?) or any of the other Thomsonfly (nee Britannia) bases. Not that that was the issue being mentioned. It was more about why pilots are leaving easy, not the merits of my airline and it's bases.:rolleyes:

The point I was making was more about how a united front is the only way to get what you want in easy and as pointed out, 51% membership of BALPA sends a clear message to the easy management.....do what you want as we are in no position to fight you!

PP

Ummm Pete...dont be sooo touchy...my tounge was firmly in my cheek:D

As it happens Im based at LGW and perfectly happy:)

Seriously..for as short a time as possible...I know from a couple of 737 drivers interviewed; and they report that Thomsonfly are pushing guys to go to Doncaster (No mention was offered of Manchester or otherwise) as this is a new base with a key focus. As you said this thread is about Easy...which is why certain Orange guys/gals havent found the T'Fly offer (for Doncaster) as enticing as it could potentially be.

I agree with you about BALPA, T'Fly crew certainly benefit from a united front.


:ok:

Any truth in the rumour that the Chief Pilot will shortly be leaving for Abu Dabi?

now that would just be too good to be true :cool:

Join BALPA now!! (Please) With the tax relief the cost per sector can be measured as a few pence. I too voted no for the past deals but firmly believe you've got to be in to win(ge)!

I understand that the company have offered nothing as far as the pay negociations are concerned - a zero cost option. That is how much they appreciate our efforts is it no wonder people are leaving. As a previous BALPA cynic, now we have a new CC, it's time to get behind Nick C and make a stand. Surely all we are asking for is a fair deal. Nobody wants to see aircraft sat on the ground but management be warned if you don't think that such a mindset exists .

With any luck now the "people person" that is RW is moving on the new boss can make this the airline what it should be. :ok:

Wise words Nimrod 42,

If management don't realise that we mean business this time, then they only have themselves to blame.:)

Well, the employment market is red hot, pilots leaving in droves or planning to leave soon, the company about to announce a fair profit in line with expectations, the price of oil falling for the first time in ages, lastly our wages having already fallen well behind those of all our competitors with no career structure in place, loads of new aircraft arriving next year so you would think it would be a "no brainer" wouldn't it?
After all, better keep the share price up when RW leaves.
Unfortunately, easyJet has never done the obvious and so often has paid a huge price for being naive and foolish, so we shall see what they do this time!

donno fifty, but I heard the same as well...

How stupid can they get? With the oil price doing about 800fpm down and the pilot market doing about 1000fpm up, the longer they let it run, the more it's gonna hurt.

When will they learn?

Cheers,
mcdhu

Lets not make the mistakes of the past though. Everyone has to be kept informed whether BALPA or not. That is the only way more will join if they understand what is going on prior to a decision/vote being made. Many doubters want to see action, so show them you mean business. There are more than enough members to seriously effect Easy's profitability should it reluctantly get to more direct action.

I repeat that no-one wants that.

We do want to work for a successful airline that respects us as an asset not an unfortunate cost. A decent salary, a pension that means I'm not slogging my guts out for 20 years to just work in B&Q

"raw plugs............isle 5 sir" :{

and a roster and leave system that actually allows me to see my family :eek: . Were I don't feel I'm reguarly asked to bend over and receive a wrist with a diving watch on :ooh:

Here's an idea, how about we save money by not sending out useless magazines (that tell me the HR director supports Everton..joy) which I can't find empoyment for even in the lavatory - you cant I've tried.....remember Izle! :O

Or maybe lets not sponser some African Ski team .....Whaaaaaaaaaaat!!!!! :mad: No I'm not joking.

As for JP leaving, surely if he is it will only be to move closer to the airport and reduce his commute!!

Sharpen up 42, the plugs are in aisle 6 now!!!

Sad fact is, the serious doubters all want to see the results before they join up...........when of course they'll say "what's the point in joining up now 'cos we got what we wanted anyway"..........

Let's ask Mrs Trellis of North Wales what she thinks..........................................

For some maybe but not for many more. Basically let's not stick our collective heads in the sand. An attitude of why bother on both sides doesn't help and postings such as your last merely reiterate other entrench views.

Forget the past....all of it, especially the mistakes and yes the union has made some!

Frankly I don't "give a fig" for the past 10 years I'm more interested in the next 10.

So let's use this forum to educate all in Easyjet ( to get the agreement we want not that they want) rather than recriminate amongst oursleves. For too long that has been the way. This is not a them and us situation but a collective push for the deal we deserve.

I firmly believe that if the CC shows heart , makes a stand and publicly shows it (to all not just members) the backing of a vast number of the workforce will be gained.

Management beware before you wake a sleeping tiger..........even if it is a totally knackered one after 5 earlies :uhoh:

"Viva Republica" :ok:

The likes of Thomsonfly have good terms and conditions, why I hear you ask? It's not because Thomsonfly are a kind bunch who really want to sacrafice their profit to look after the employees out of the goodness of their hearts. it's because they have over 90% Balpa members and not around 50% like Easyjet have.

Trust me if the likes of Thomsonfly and BA could get away with lowering your terms and conditions and make you work to the max hours like Easyjet they would but unfortunatly for them they have a high number of Balpa members which put the work force in a strong position for negotiations.

Yes Stone Cold you are quite right. Recent TFLY incumbents have been gently pursuaded (if you know what I mean) by their peers into joining BALPA. Especially if they have ambitions to progress.
It is no coincidence that their terms & conditions are very good.
Here at easy we have a new boss who claims to be family orientated so lets hope that this is reflected in the present negotiations. We need to get the BALPA membership up to reinforce the CC's mandate and be able to send the right signals to the Company. Presently, morale could be better, Pilot attrition cannot be healthy at 8% and many more are planning to leave.
Does the company really think that sending us all a 10th anniversary hardbound souvenir book through the post is Low Cost? Or indeed will improve our outlook? I would be happy to receive some paper manuals for the Airbus!

Oh and by the way, B & Q look after their staff- private health care, better pension etc.

Come On Lets Join Balpa. (You know you want to!)

Sorry, I think you will find the figure is nearer 12%, planned at 5%.
But its okay because most are going "long haul".Head in the sand agin JP.
If I rejoin BALPA ,do you think a conclusion to the 18 months of negotiation would be forthcoming?
With Orange Land bods told to cut costs buy 40%, me thinks our deal is going to be poor. But we need to keep people, long term.
Cadets/TRSS are technically unbonded, and many will not have a sense of loyalty, being exprienced they have had to pay to join our company.Some will be lucky and get the command, but it isn't the given that they have been sold before joining.They may not wish to wait three to five years when they could be making their way up a senoirity based airlines scale.
As it goes it suits me but 5254 doesn't.
What would be good? 5354 or 5454 or 4444.
Loyalty bonus for FOs/SFOs after say 5yrs if no command.
Sector pay increase (Tax benefits) plus hourly rate. Still unpaid for position/taxi etc.
Cabin crew have negotiated paid holiday,what have we got?
We all have hopes and dreams i hope we can achieve some of them.:ok:

The Discrection Gimp

From your comments your are clearly one of those who left BALPA through disillusionment in the past. I have every sympathy as I did the same and for the first 18 month in the company I held exactly your view. All I can tell you is that I have decided to make the sacrifices necessary to fight with my colleagues at this difficult time. If you do not join you cannot have a single complaint if you get a rubbish deal. BALPA's ability to negotiate successfully is directly proportional to its membership levels which I am told (although in truth I do not know) are round about 52%. We simply must have your support mate and I would encourage you to put the past behind (however unsatisfactory your past BALPA experiences have been) and join with those who are fighting for your future.

Our managers/board members are about to make some serious money as rewards for 'cost saving' - and you and I are about to pay for it! I really like easyJet and want to make it work but I will not stand idly by and prepare for poverty in my old age whilst others get huge bonuses for puting me there! These are as critical negotiations as easyJet pilots have ever had. It is simply vital that our CC negotiators are given a big mandate to do whatever it takes to ensure everyone gets to share in easyJet's success and not just a few. Please come and join us in our efforts to ensure a great future for everyone at easyJet.

Excellent post NSF, I do agree that it's time to draw a line in the sand.
The Market Economics are starting to work in our favour aswell.

Some bad things have happened whilst BALPA was at the helm, but it wasn't helped by membership numbers. Past is past though and I sense a drive from the current council to go forward.
I was seriously hacked off by the loss of some stuff in the past but we have to look beyond and try to make this airline work for all of us!

No, WE may achieve some of them in spite of YOUR apathy. YOU will just enjoy the benefits WE achieve!!

Wizo , now is not the time for snipes at non members. I have consistently been on the BALPA fence and do not agree with a lot that has happened BUT....the time is nigh. This time we need a result. get into BALPA guys and get voting. I urge our colleagues in mainland Europe to do the same.

Thank you guys. With brow beating non-members you are sure to encourage more members or may be open letters to retiring Captains is an example of how childish the meetings must be in orange land.
I was a founding member of easyJet BALPA when many of you were not in easyJet. It was worse then but has been very muchbetter. I sat at a meeting in Luton and seven other people showed up only one of the current CC were present. We requested direct action and the BALPA rep wanted to wait, hence the deal was weak.
In spite of the above I will lend my support and have emailed my application to BALPA in a vain hope to get a bigger stick.
For those of you outside BALPA join for yourselves not because of the wasted negative energy that some members throw at you.

I agree shouting at people doesn't encourage folk to join. As I have previously said I too was a union cynic having been let down in the past but now is the time to put that aside before we royally get shafted again!!

That fab, expensive book telling me how great the last 10 years have been just arrived.........."we're all one happy family" apparantly. Do you think they actually believe this stuff?

I firmly feel we are now at a crossroads where we have to make a stand. We're cheesed off and exhausted so are the crew and the ground handlers at Luton are contemplating strike action. Yep, we're all one happy family!! :mad:

Is BALPA expensive - yes it is let's not fool ourselves. But to all I say give it a try even if it's only until the pay deal is done. To the CC I say now is your chance, stand firm and say NO if the deal is not what we want or deserve. Otherwise everyone wil just give themselves a 1% pay rise.

Maybe someone should e-mail this thread to the new CEO.

Oh, there's no more places at RWs leaving do........shame, I was desperate to go :uhoh:

Come on, get a life...

It's so easy slagging off a union when the results are not visibly paying off, but just watch 'your own passive colleagues' join in huge numbers when they realise there's actual personal benefit for them.

Sad attitute that is...

S.

Well thats brought the argument on leaps and bounds!!:{

I don't think that stating a fact is "slagging the union off!"
£55 per month is what I am paying for BALPA, it is not an inconsiderable sum. In fact it is more than my loss of licence ins.Which is more likely to be used judging by the health issues some of our collegues have suffered.
I say again stop slagging off non members it will reduce the chances of them joining, not what I think you want.Please come up with coherent reasons for them to do so a carrot rather than the stick!

Can we stop the slanging match and divert our attention to the real thugs?

United we stand :), divided we fall :(

We need to stop slanging match now , another little nugget today on top of the 0% pay offer . Base Captains are now confirming that MXP will be a european contract , it is the intention of the company to place all its non UK ops on a new contract , much less than the UK one .

Ask your base Capt ' . i did.

NF

EZY basing
 

Hi all ,
Just curious about basing issues at EZY , I have read this section on their website , however , what is the reality of base preferences for new joiners as a SFO .
Any realistic and truthful info would be greatly appreciated .

It's all looking pretty grim isn't it. I appreciate the CC can't comment too much while the negociations are "progressing" or not but if the rumours are true we need to get these difficulties into the general pilot domain. Can we not have an update that can be promogated in the crewrooms or indeed on PPRUNE for all to see . Then our argument to convince others to get behind the struggle is multiplied.

While I can't speak for other bases at mine the attitude is becoming more militant. I think we all realise we are facing an uphill struggle but I've yet to meet anyone who isn't up for a fight.

I don't want to see our aircraft on the ground or get into dropping the gear at 20 miles (yes its been done in other carriers) but we all agree it about time the Ivory Tower in Luton realised we want a fair deal.

"HOLD FAST":ok:

I see the 10 year book is selling well on e-bay!!

IF what Nil f is stating is indeed the company’s intention, where does that leave the pilots already on "UK" contracts at "European" bases?? Do they have the law on their side to change existing contracts?? Imagine an FO sitting on "old" contract in Milan with captain on "new" one..... Who knows how big the split will be, but it could potentially add some interesting aspects to CRM....
Looks like it's REALLY time for BALPA, AND the pilots not already in BALPA, to get their act together and start pulling some weight in this company, or else the battle will be lost and we'd all better start looking for new jobs.....
:yuk: :yuk: :sad: