BA B777 junior FO: down to earth
 

(I edited the title of this topic from BA Rosters to BA B777 junior FO, since quite some different issues about the junior FO life on B777 are explained here)

Hey guys,

There are bits and pieces of info about BA's working regime all over this forum, but never a clearcut, up-to-date resume.

I have been accepted recently on the B777, a start date is staring me in the face.:cool:

I read some positive things and a lot of ultranegative stuff on the BA rosters, so please come out now: how is life for a bottom-of-the-list FO on the B777?:confused:

- Can you commute?
- How many days in a row are you on and then off duty? How many days in total is one at home per month on average? Could a BA FO 777 maybe post some roster examples?
- Is it possible to get requests granted (e.g. if you need to be at a wedding or for a weekend...)
- Do you have any weekends off at all?
- Can you plan your vacation days, or do you just get what is left?
- And how much vacation will one have per year at BA?
- How much destinations does the 777 fly to - is there a list somewhere?

BA is hiring at top speed: any answer on this post will be useful to a lot of newcomers.:ok:

Thanks a lot!

How bad can it be? Take the job! -they don't bond and how many more offers do you have? - BA are unlikely to go down the pan.

Don't be too disappointed, but the BA 777s don't do the better longhaul routes to say the least! Furthermore, the crew slips on the 777 fleet are by and large 24 hr nightstop stateside and middle east. LGW has some beach destinations, but they're snapped up quickly! Good luck anyway.

A380

I am also starting on the 777 (in August) and it didn't take me too much trouble to come up with the following list of destinations (of course we will get the minimum rest Newarks, Philadelphias and Washingtons!)

From LHR :

MONTREAL
TORONTO
BALTIMORE
BOSTON
CHICAGO
DENVER
DETROIT
JFK
EWR
PHILADELPHIA
WASHINGTON

LUANDA
CAIRO
ABUJA
HARARE

BAHRAIN
KUWAIT
MUSCAT
DOHA
ABU DHABI
DUBAI

DHAKA
CALCUTTA
ISLAMABAD

BEIJING
SHANGHAI

From LGW :

BERMUDA
ATLANTA
DALLAS
HOUSTON
ORLANDO
TAMPA

ANTIGUA
BRIDGETOWN
GRENADA
KINGSTON
ST LUCIA
TOBAGO


Best Regards

Some of the above are shuttle destinations (there and back from somewhere else, ie. DOH from BAH).

Anyway....

Certainly. Many people do. As you get more senior you'll have more control over your life so you'll be able to get longer blocks of days off.

Typically, three or four on, two off. You can volunteer to reduce the days off to get more days in a block.

Typically without leave, expect about 12-14 days at home per month.

You'll be lucky. Expect 5 trips per month, mainly Eastern Seaboard with two days off in between. Expect to work most weekends. It's rare for 3-crew trips to get as far as the Blind Lines (ie. rostered lines) but not unknown.

If it's something important (wedding, funeral, Cup Final), a quiet word in the office helps if you aren't senior enough to achieve an appropriate Trip Line. Just for a weekend? Well, you can ask....:ouch:

Not many initially (expect zero, be pleased if you get more). You'll get more as your seniority increases.

Leave is allocated on a points system (not seniority) based on the last eight seasons. If you go for unpopular weeks over the first few seasons (ie. not Christmas or the school holidays), you get most points which gives you more choice in subsequent seasons - if you see what I mean...:confused:

Four weeks leave (which you cannot work over), two Duty Free Weeks (which you can choose to work over but cannot be forced), so six weeks in total.

Plenty (the previous post has a full list). Needless to say, the list can change at any time. Shanghai is a new route and in the past it's been to BKK, CPT, KL, Havana, Saudi and all over South America among others. You never know, it may go back.....

After your first five years (or at BA's discretion), subject to your seniority you'll be able to change fleets if the above doesn't suit you.

Welcome aboard.

BA 777
 

I have also been given a course date for 777 in August.

Does antbody have anymore details on the training cse, length breakdown etc?

Regards

Thanks for the quick replies:D
Please keep them coming if you have more.

(And change the seniority based system, to a nice point based system before we newcomers get there if you will;) :ouch: )

I read that after 6 months, you get staff travel.
Does that work in reality?
I mean, if I would want to commute out of Europe, from a regular BA destination, would it work? Do pilots accept their colleagues on the jumpseat if no seats available?

cheerful greetz

Expect the course length to be a few days of Admin /Welcome /SEP and CRM. Then 2-3 weeks groundschool followed by 3 weeks Sim.
Not sure about longhaul line training as I'm a Shorthaul W#nker!

Commuting is possible, you can ask for a Flight Deck jumpseat and most of us will take you.

Barcelona, Nice and Geneva would be tricky to commute being junior as there are so many commuters and Staff Travel onload is allocated on Seniority.

See you on a jump seat soon, or perhaps on the 777 soon if I can get out of my initial freeze. I gather the triple is desperate for FO's as is the Scarebus fleet.

J.

I'm not from BA, so could be completely wrong about this - although I have got quite a few friends at BA who I heard this from....
Although lots of newcomers have been taken onto the 777, there are also now quite a few internal BA pilots who have just got their bids back and have been given the 777 - although they may not get a course till next May.
So all the guys/gals who are joining now and for the next year will effectively be at the bottom of the seniority, therefore getting the worst trips etc, won't they then continue to be at the bottom as all the longer-serving BA lot move onto the 777 with their mugh higher seniority number?? It could be then that those going straight on the 777 will pretty much have a not-so-good roster for a pretty long time??

That's about right!!!

Has anybody else got some more encouraging views? As far as I am concerned its like the pension, I won't get it so why fret about it. Seniority, it can only get better!

Ripley,

Not sure where you're working now, but I guess BA will be better.
I moved 4 years ago and haven't looked back.

Seniority will improve slowly and the union haven't given up on improving the DEP pension deal to something that really is market leading or market matching (Virgin).

The BA DEP pension scheme will not change for a very long time. Any extra cost incurred by improving the company pension contribution would come from the same pot that will be used for future terms and conditions negotiations.
Those DEPs starting on the 'B' scale will be in the minority for a very long time and no final salary pilots are going to rock the boat and accept reduced benefits just so the new boys (and girls) can get an extra percent into their pension fund!
If you want/need a good pension BA may not be the place to go.

Still better than easyJet and many others pension schemes.

The pension contribution is better than some other companies, but not all their direct competitors. You really have to sit down and do some hard sums to figure out what is best for you, when you factor in time to command and the associated pay rise as well as your age and time to retirement. It's not an easy thing to assess.
In the past many ex-mil guys would leave the service at 38 with a pension, go to BA and leave at 55 with another pension(probably as a junior LH Capt). That will not happen any more as the goal posts have moved considerably - time to command has increased and pension is worse.

Er82;

Not sure where you got your info from, but not so true. From the last run ~100 FO's leaving the fleet for the -400 or commands and only ~10 joining the fleet.

LOTS of new DEP's joining on the 777 over the coming few years.

Me - been in 3 months - 60 places off the bottom company wise, and over 20 on the fleet already! :-)

FlyA380 - look forward to it - its great ;-)

I also understand that BA are anticipating almost all pilots to stay on at least a year longer than retirement age when the legislation changes next year. As previous posters/threads have mentioned, there wont be much movement in the future. Anticipate being stuck at the bottom of the bidding for a long time. (Until someone takes BA to a tribunal for discrimination)

Is it likely that the BA bidding system (solely based on seniority) will ever change? (or that someone will fight it our before a tribunal... :suspect:

OK this is back of a fag packet stuff but it is what I am working on. Please feel free to correct if anyone thinks I am way out.

Pension is money purchase - equates to 9% of basic pay (£44k x 9%=approx £4200 pa at the outset)

This will accrue in a pension pot over, lets say 22 years (ages 38-60), at a compound interest of 5% to a princely sum of around £150k to £200k by retirement. With this sum you should be able to take 25% as a tax free lump sum and use the remainder to purchase an annuity. Presently £100k will buy you a £6k pa pension(ish) til the day you croak.

Of course none of this is guaranteed, your pension pot may be worth zilch or a lot more. And of course the risk is all on the individual not the company pension fund.

In summary I've no idea how much the gold plated BA pension is after 22 years , but I bet it is a lot better than £10k (ish) pa, hence the debate!

Hope this helps - I'm no expert, this is just my guesstimate of the situation.

It's a combination - roughly one third employee, two thirds company.

ixion17,

Where do you get 44K from ? This is not the starting "pensionable" pay, it is lower. However, the pensionable pay goes up every year, and assuming you are under 31 (or more likely 36), you will retire on a "pensionable" of almost £120K (todays figures).........

Uh oh - I knew this would get complicated!
I have used the simple 'formula' of 9% of basic pay (£44kish for starters) . The reality is that pensionable pay at the start is around £32k and for which you get a contribution of 12%. The company pays in 7% and the individual pays in 5%. Still equates to 9% of basic pay but makes the sums easier.

You are correct that the pension contribution will go up with your basic salary, ending up at around £10k after a couple of decades (for a basic salary of £120k). However, in my opinion this doesn't really alter the end game sums over 20 years as compound interest is a bigger factor and makes the early years contibutions as important, if not more. However, for those looking at more than 20 years in the company then higher payments and compound interest both start to work in your favour, and MAY even be better than a final salary scheme!

The new pension scheme is probably average for a large company these days. At least it is 'your' money and can't be touched if the company goes broke in the interim, as some of our American colleagues are discovering to their cost. IMO it should be improved by the company making a larger contribution to the pot to bring it into line with the offerings from the competition.

As ever I am no expert and am more than happy to be corrected on any of this.

expedite_climb wrote:

The problem with that is that that high pensionable salary at the end is of naff all use to you. You have no years left to let compound interest work it's magic.

Different when under final salary it's your two best years that determine your pension.

That's not to say £120k is not good, it's very good but for a money purchase pension to be any good you need shed loads to be going in from the beginning.

Figures worked out today. Current age 35. Retire 55/60.

No AVC = £6540/ £9030.

Max AVC = £11800/16300.


The only way this scheme can work is if a) you are very young which most DEP's are not or b) you already have a decent pension to import.

Makes the state pension look reasonable!

This sounds indeed exactly like a pension scheme you could find in most European airlines. A percentage of your basic salary goes into a fund on your own name, and starts building a nice capital. Anything in there is yours to grab at retirement, the well being of the company is no factor.;)
Question: normally, you can get the whole sum in one payment, if you wish or choose for monthly sums. Is this possible at BA too?

And to get back on the thread: thanks for all the replies guys. There is stuff about:

Rosters, payment, pension, social life, destinations,...
Keep it coming on these topics!:ok:

Now: what is left? What does one need to know about BA, if you're deciding to join or not?

For example: how bad are you taxed? And on what - basic salary/flight pay/check-in clear allowances - ?:confused:
How about reserve duties?

The period to captaincy had been covered on another thread: let's not start that one again. I live on hope anyways: it won't be that bad.:\

Optimistic greetz

Remember how fast they are recruiting, those already in this year or joining in the near future will climb the seniority list on their fleet very fast to begin with. The first to join this year are already getting trip lines with some decent stuff on them!

..............and I am looking forward to starting next month!

Right, pay attention you lot!! ;)

Your pension is based upon 12% of your PENSIONABLE PAY. This is not the same as your basic pay. It equates to 9% of that, near as dammit.

For example, if you join on the 777, your basic in year 1 will be £42841. Your pensionable (which BAMPS is based upon) is £32130 so your 12% contribution rate comes from that. If you join on shorthaul (A320), your basic pay will be a little less but your pensionable pay will be the same.

Edited 'cos I've been up all night and lost the ability to count.... :zzz: :zzz:

Seniority on the 777
 

Just going back to the 777 lifestyle thread...

What you have heard about seniority vs quality of life at BA is all true. On the 777 being junior isn't the end of the world but the more people below you, the more choices you'll have.

Here's the good news: There are between 300 and 330 F/O's on the fleet depending on training and recruitment. If you start tomorrow, of course you'll be at the bottom, but not for long. As mentioned, there are about 90 DEP's starting on the 777 in the next 12 months. That means that you'll be 30% of the way up the list before you even get to go to the same place twice.

So after your first year, you'll be in quite an enviable position. Some guys take 8 years to get to the same level on the '400. The other nice thing is that everyone is frozen on type for the first 5 years after training. That means that you are guaranteed to maintain that buffer below you until you have a bit of seniority within the company as a whole.

Come on in, the water's lovely.

LFW

I'm one of the 90 mentioned in LFW's post above & I'm being painted a pretty naff picture of the working pattern on the 777. Will new starters on the 777 just be doing East Coast bullets for the first 6/12/18 months?

Roughly how many days off a month are we likely to get in the first few months - I've been told by by my AME that one guy he treats just left the 777 fleet after spending a grand total of 6 days at home in Feb. (Bearing in mind he does commute from Manch area).

I must admit I was well excited to be moving to BA on the 777 after several years of EZY but I have to say I'm rather less enthusiastic now I've got to know a bit more. I was hoping to be less knackered in the long run but it seems not to be the case. Can anyone enlighten me?

Do not panic, I have spent nearly 6 years on the 777 and it is not that bad. I was near the bottom of the p1 list for over a year. If you go for a blindline, ie pre-ops allocate your work, you must have a minimum of 3 local nights off after every trip unless you agree to do back to backs which suits commuters. You should get a minimum of 10 days off and sometimes more if the work reduces as it does in the winter. It is a fab jet and ba is a good company to work for. Anybody who joins from outside, like wot I did, are glad they did..

777 Driver

Grunt, quick question, do you commute from NI?

I was offered the 777 but decided to stay where I am. If you are a skipper on a jet stay where you are. If you fly a turboprop and are less than 27 take it. The first five years you will have a life from hell.

Lets have a look

1. No weekends

2. Wage drop

3. Holidays when you don't want them.

4. LGW or LHR.

5. Away from your family.

6. Night stopping with people you don't want to be with.

7. Hours and hours of boredom. (Think about a LGW-AGP)!

8. 20 years to command.

9. A pension calculated on a reduced salary.

10. Un-confirmed staff travel.

I could go on but I'm off to the Cup Final. Enjoy your day in Washington again!!!

Flying Fiona

Everyone is entitled to their opinion of course. But if you've not worked for BA, nor flown the B777, you may not be in a very strong position to comment.

For example: Do you even know how holidays are allocated?

I suspect those looking for information, may be more persuaded by people who actually know!

Fiona : Lets compare that to life in a low cost -

1. Maybe 1 weekend in 4 (will be knackered anyway)

2. First year BA take home pay will be around 500pounds more per month than SFO at easyJet. About 12 years Captains salary at low cost will equal first 12 years salary as FO with BA cumulatively.

3. Ditto, however I think BA's holiday system is fairer where if one year you don't get what you want, then next year you are more likely to.

4. LGW/LHR - some hassle I agree but commuting available if Long Haul

5. Not everyone has family, many have family abroad which may be more accessible through staff travel and lifestyle.

6. Night stopping with potentially 12 young females

7. Cant get away from the boredom I agree, at least at the end of a 10 hour shift you dont have to worry about coming back to work in 12 hours for another 4 sectors.

8. Command time is a disadvantage I agree, however salary makes up for it.

9. Pension pot at the end of a career significantly higher than staying with a low-cost.

10. Staff travel - I dont think anyone at a low cost would argue that BA's could be worse.

I am 30 and close to command at easyJet, but for me it is a no-brainer to join BA on the 777.

Pretty good post from The Greaser, apart from point 6. No chance of that happening on long haul. Not ever.:(

So what is it then: can you expect to fly only east coast and middle east in your first year on the B777, or does the blank bidding system offer some special treats now and then?

I am starting on the B777 in September: how may more shiny fresh FO's will join AFTER me? (I am getting a grip on this seniority thing :} )

I know, one shouldn't ask more than one question at a time to be efficient, but I can't help myself: what does reserve duty mean at BA - is that surviveable for a commuter?

Cheerful greetz:D

Don't knock the East coast or the Gulf. When it comes down to it, you'll have 12 - 18 months 'honeymoon period' where everything is new and interesting. After which, you may well have moved someway up the seniority list. For example, Newark is not highly regarded (for many reasons) but it's only 45 mins on the train to Manhattan! Every destination is what YOU make of it.

On the B777 a block of reserve is 28 days! However:

The first 7 days are a week of FDOs (Fixed Days Off) Think of them as an extra weeks leave! Because even the most junior can bid for (and get) pretty well any stby block, the ability to select these extra weeks 'leave' can be really useful!

The following 21 days you need to be able to reach the car park (note - 'the car park'!) in 2 hours. Quite often, when there is work to be covered it will be allocated the day before, by around 1800. So you have plenty of notice. It is unusual, though not unheard of, to be asked to come to work 'immediately' from home standby.

If you fly a trip from stby, you are guaranteed (I believe) one local day off, before being liable once again for stby. At least once in your block, you will be allocated a long break (minimum 2 days off) Can't recall if this could happen down route!

All in all, it's probably not quite as bad as it sounds. Just as well really since I imagine you might be required to do 3 or so of these per annum in your early years.

Some senior trips also, fall down to reserve, so you can go to places you might not otherwise see.

Enjoy

He's right. After a trip, you get one local day (night) off before you can be allocated another trip. You can volunteer to reduce this (for which you will receive a payment) in order to do a back to back trip. The 'long break' must be notified in advance and must be taken at home. However, the company can take into account days off down route for their planning, although this is not usually of great significance on the 777 as the trips are generally pretty short.

Tandemrotor,

Are you coming back down south or staying up north?

Flying Fiona

BA are not exclusive in your list of ten gripes. In fact, I would say that you could complain about the same gripes in virtually any long haul lifestyle. Most people do not end up flying long haul unless they want to be there, there are plenty of short haul jobs for those with experience. Therefore, go with your eyes wide open. Plenty of shorthaul people fly weekends; have a wage drop; are not based where they want to be (consequently are away from their families); have a pension calculated on a reduced salary, which after all is now the norm & have unconfirmed staff travel. To say these are the evils of long haul is misleading, there is plenty going on in short haul! You may get an earlier command in Easy, but it will probably not be at your base of choice, oh time away from home again, will involve commuting & few weekends off. I could also go on, but I too have enjoyed the Cup Final (as much as you could with a somewhat mediocre performance), and I fly long haul which leads me to the positives.

1. Average of 3 to 4 trips per month
2. Live where you like, even if it is in France!
3. Experience the delights of commuting 3 times a month rather than 5 times a week
4. Spend time off where you fly & yes with the right attitude see a bit of the world
5. Some people you meet on trips you may actually enjoy spending time with. Oh & have time to enjoy a legal beer
6. LGW or LHR, who cares, live where you want
7. Time with your family when you are off
8. Staff travel that works 9 times out of 10 at vastly reduced rates
9. Boredom with a fantastic view & after all you are being paid for it

At the end of the day if you want time at home, weekends off & time with your family I would suggest to anyone that a career in aviation is not where you should look. As far as I am concerned I have friends who have a far worse lifestyle. Commuting to a windowless office in a big city to spend time with the same people that you know you don't like whilst earning a vastly reduced salary with a boss that resembles David Brent is far from fun.

Long haul........yeah!

All spelling mistakes Cup Final Vodka induced.

:ok: