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Ryan-Be-Fair.org confirms it!
Aside from the usual defence we always hear on this site...
now the International Transport Federation's own site, ryan-be-fair.org has finally spelled out what almost every sane individual always knew... Ryanair is NOT the best paid airline! Ryanair does NOT offer it's staff great incentives Ryanair DOES treat it's employees (ground staff, flight crew, cabin crew) with resentment and uses open THREATS to maintain the autocracy that rules the company full article www.ryan-be-fair.org : NEWS this after half a million hits in four months... THOSE CONSIDERING EMPLOYMENT, BE WARNED! YOURE GETTING INTO VERY HOT WATER |
ryan-be-fair only publishes what it wants to publish. I submitted my opinion more then once and it was never published!!
my opinion is : I work now for almost a year with ryanair as cabin crew. First of all I don't care if I'm the best paid cabin crew member in europe or not, Ryanair pays good! (I was talking to an FO yesterday and he said that he looked at 12! other companies and ryanair was the best paying) Second I don't think I have a hard job, I used to work in a kitchen before and THAT was hard work ... even more hours duty time and much harder work without a pause. No time to sit down and drink coffee ... that is what we do when we finished the service on long flight So to all of you complaining, If you don't like Ryanair, keep you opinion FOR YOURSELF, and quit so that many others who want to become cabin crew have the chance. Further on I think that those who don't work for the company should defenitly not slash ryanair in public as you don't know nothing about this company!! kind regards, Sean |
If you don't like Ryanair, keep you opinion FOR YOURSELF those who don't work for the company should defenitly not slash ryanair in public as you don't know nothing about this company!! But i know Pilots who work there and some (not all) cant wait to get out!! the once who like it are mostly new to the industry and just dont understand that the way they are treated is not normal in aviation!! Glad to hear that you like it there sean ,good luck with it ,it will only get worse Neil |
<<Ryanair pays good!>>
You get what you pay for? TIC, ptc |
Ryan Air is a low cost airline, where pilots and cabin crew are paid to fly. This is what I was told at the interview and this is what I did when I flew for them. As an FO I was averaging 92 hrs a month and raking in £3700 net. All flights were on time, actually most of them were 10' early. I must admit it was hard work but you get into the rhythm after a couple of months. However, I do believe 3-5 years is the most you can go at that pace. It's very good to build experience and the pilots are all very professional and from over 40 countries.
Considering other LCC in Europe Ryan Air is probably the best, followed by easyjet & Air Berlin. When I say best I mean weighing up flight time and the money you actually take home. The 5 on 3 off roster was also a good thing and I know there aren't many airlines that have a system like that. I have met many people that bad mouth Ryan Air, interestingly none of them have ever worked for Ryan Air. So if you are thinking of joining SPEAK TO SOMEONE WHO WORKS FOR THEM!!! |
cruise alt ...your comments are unfair. In the last week there as been many FR diversions due wind like wise aer lingus diverted. FR may have higher cross wind limits in the wet for T/O as against AL who are limited on the 737s to a 25kt limit. I know many FR Capts and they are all pro's and not cowboys as you infer.
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As I have nothing to do with Ryanair I have no major feelings towards them or against them but I think some of the comments about their safety are unfounded.
Surely if they cut corners on safety issues as is being inferred they would have had an incident or at least one or two close calls? I monitor this and other similar sites regularly and I've heard of nothing to date. |
Pro's working for a cowboy outfit you mean! But knowing many of them I am not so sure. You have to be good to survive in a company like FR. It's definitely not the real world of aviation. How can you stand over a 45 min report time, 25 min turnarounds,one set of badly photocopied approach plates, min time captains, min time f/o's, drive yourself to the aircraft, no food/water, pay for ID uniform and sim check......the list goes on.
Don't tell me the money is great, there are more things to life than that. As for RAKING in 3700 a month all I can say is you are easily bought. You can spend it on medical expenses when you collapse with exhaustion. Greed is what made FR the company it is today and now greed is turning around to bite you. You sold everything to O Leary, why are you all surprised when he now wants to collect? |
Ryanair would be good
I fly for an air charter company all over europe. My pay is crap, flight duty hours fit in when we don't get a job! (Days off backdated) I earn freelance F/O £1000.00 per month! then I have to take my tax and N.I.
I see no reason to diss Ryanair, I supply my own uniform, my own drinks on the flight deck, pay my own medical. I have been to sim ride and interview at Alteon for Ryanair in Aug 2004 and told I had passed and they would call me. From where I am Ryanair is offering a bloody good deal (Ihave to pay for everything anyway?) At least with ryanair I would have some money to pay for uniform, medicals and in flight refreshments. Keep in mind that many pilots would still be happy to be doing the flying that I do on a twin turboprop arround the UK and Europe its great experience but the bank wants more. Keep the faith as I am. Just Waiting for the Alteon people to call me with a training start date? Please make it soon. If the Alteon management read this I am the one from Norwich who came for sim check on 02/08/2004 Any commercial flying and any experience is good in the current market. Good luck to all and if it was not for companies like Ryanair where would people start there real careers? |
Surely if they cut corners on safety issues as is being inferred they would have had an incident or at least one or two close calls? I monitor this and other similar sites regularly and I've heard of nothing to date. PHX |
A crew stansted to knock failed to switch the packs on and pressurise the aircraft. Did not realise it til the cabin crew told them the masks had dropped. They then tried to invent a cover story. Without FR people would start their careers on a better/safer footing.
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As for RAKING in 3700 a month all I can say is you are easily bought. |
All of you that reckon that £3700 a month is buying a pilot to work for Ryan Air obviosly haven't ever worked harder, with unstable rosters, poorly maintained aircraft for a lot less money a month. This is only comparing Ryan Air to other LCC.
Other airline jobs such as regional airlines, charter or national airlines are not comparable as they are totally different set-up. I reckon if you want to try the LCC experience Ryan Air is the best package. However, it's not a long term solution as you will end up too knackered to enjoy the money if you stick around for more than 5 years. the ideal is to give it a go for a couple of years and then move on to something quieter. |
As an FO I was averaging 92 hrs a month and raking in £3700 net. If you were averaging 92 hours a month then that works out to a maximum number of months you could work is less than 9.5 months. Anyone who could sustain and average of 92.5 hours a month for 9.5 months of the year would certainly need the other 2.5 months for recuperation. So, £3700 net for 92 hours a month average works out to 9.5 x £3700 = £35150 a year. You claim that that amount is net so we can work that out to be approximately £43000 a year before tax. Hmmm, that certainly isn't what I would call fantastic pay, especially since you haven't deducted all the extras such as uniform, medicals, pension, food, LOL, various other insurances and health schemes etc. that the rest of us expect as part of a normal package. Let's be generous and and say that they only come to £3000, then your £40k (how much of that is pensionable is open to debate) doesn't seem so fantastic any more. :rolleyes: Before the non-pilot enthusiasts who haunt this site such as eal401 jump in, the flight duty hours quoted above are not the same as duty hours. I won't waste my time explaining that to failed wannabe types such as eal401 but if obi was averaging 92 flight duty hours per month then he was most certainly running at close to the maximum duty hours, especially on multi sector days. Probably around 2.5 x flight hours if you include standby duties which would equate to 53 hours a week. I'll bet that those failed wannabe types don't put in 53 hours a week every week until they are fatigued. They just see a salary of around £3.7k a month and compare that to their paltry 9-5 desk job and jump to conclusions. No, averaging 92 flight duty hours a month must make O'Leary very happy as it is so close to the legal maximum and therefore very productive. The fact that the pilot can only work a maximum of 9.5 months at that rate must infuriate O'Leary as that is the legal maximum but not very productive as far as he is concerned. Any pilots who work those kind of hours, as has been admitted by Obi, cannot do so for a very long time as they are truly exhausting. What Obi has failed to state is that the 2.5 months he has to sit at home because he has reached the maximum legal number of flight duty hours he can fly in a year, he has no income and therefore he should really have explained that the £3700 a month he was "raking in" had to cover him for the time he wasn't flying. I think that most jet pilots prefer to work for companies that at least show some care of duty towards their employees even if it means that they take the burden of having to do every little thing such as supply a uniform, food, medicals etc. They also tend to offer a salary that includes leave payments and flight duty pay. For O'Leary to claim that his pilots are the best paid is nothing but a pure and unadulterated lie. Unfortunately, the media love him because he spends a lot of money advertising with them and he's just so controversial when he makes statements. Because of that they are in awe of him and so are many aspiring jet pilots. They actually believe the blarney! :rolleyes: RYanair pilots, as has been shown above are not the best paid. In fact, if you work it out, they are worked extremely hard. Nothing wrong with that except that failed wannabes are ignorant of what such long flight duty hours month in and month out can do to your health. |
FR pay
What if you have to pay back for your type rating....???? All you will have earned in 5 years may vanish in the sky...
What if you're so exhausted you don't even have the necessary dash to take an interview in another company? Many more companies will experience pilot burnout in the coming years. Remember our profession is only valuable if you can make it till pension...I doubt anybody can sustain the pace imposed by new management styles around the world. |
All I can say to the likes of Chickenscanfly etc who are always moaning about their terms and conditions. Get out if it is so bad, no one makes you stay. If the grass is greener why don't you pack it in with Ryanair and get a job with one of the airlines that you compare them with.
If I was as unhappy with my job as you profess to be, I would sure as hell not work there, why are you?. Or maybe you don't work with them at all and are just an agitator out to cause trouble. |
i have followed a few of chickens posts and i think he is saying that the trends developing within ryanair are the worry and not necessarily where he is now.if not the case,then he has every right to moan like everybody else here who chooses to highlight the inefficiencies within his company of employment.
we believe that ryanair could really achieve an absolute position of great service to its customers,care of staff and provide a better and more efficient service than we have to date,but we are moving in the wrong direction.we are cutting everything to the bone and thus creating a false balance sheet.what will happen when there is no more to cut back.i have no problem flying 900 hours a year and being payed for it,but i would like it to be in an environment that is good for alland in a company with a great future.unfortunately that may not be the successful ryanair that we see today,but one never knows.i don't imagine that any pilot within ryanair wants to see the company go down.quite the contrary,i think that the majority would like to see ryanair become greater and thus they progress also. chickens correct me if i misinterpret you! |
Cruise Alt...... your comments show a great misunderstanding of performance. You claim to be an instructor. You obviously don't teach heavy jet performance.....or in the unlikely event that you do...you have certainly never worked for more than one airline.
Please don't slander fellow proffesionals until you know all the facts. Your comments could be easily misinterpreted by commentators in the media. (If this is actually your intention to mislead the uneducated then that is truely the lowest pond life thing to do....use pilots performing their job well as tools to slander an airline!!) If you want to attack FR then don't pick on the proffesionals without evidence. |
Moving on
I have only been to two interviews but I will say that if Ryanair was to take me on, i would be there for the long haul because who wants to keep sitting the nasty sim rides dished out be the airline?
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Long time lurker, had to post to try and understand this post by sean82...
ryan-be-fair only publishes what it wants to publish. I submitted my opinion more then once and it was never published!! So to all of you complaining, If you don't like Ryanair, keep you opinion FOR YOURSELF adam |
smudge74 - you will have a lot more hairy sim. rides to pass if they do take you on.you might not even get past the initial.we may have bad management,but be under no illusion the training is extremely tough and not all get through.getting in is just the start.
a contract co-pilot commented to me recently that the standard of pilot wasn't great in ryanair.well coming from a low time guy with a high time attitude,that was no surprise.we have some of the best smudge,but they suffer on the way up. |
Yeah the sim rides are so tough the training manager failed his twice in a row recently!
http://www.aaiu.ie/aviation/aaiu/rep...g=ENG&loc=1280 At least 10 of these accident reports are down to FR. Heres your evidence. |
The Facts
Perhaps I have sat back too long without reply to this topic...
Rest assured to all I am in a position to know what happens within the company, that is all I can safely say under the current circumstances... and my quarrels are with many different facets of its operations, as they have always been since I started posting on the topics on PPRune... Grim is right to say that I feel a great deal of loss in where this company could potentially go, it is demotivating and at least worrying...with all the cuts sublimenting a false balance sheet, the day will soon arise where MOL wont be able to find anywhere else he can cut back on... Obi wan must have worked with the company a long time ago...the average take home pay for an F/O is now below 3ka month, and this with the added expenses others have noted (medical, transport, uniform, loss of license, legal assistance cover, pension scheme (if applicable), accomodation)...NOT TO FORGET the repayment costs for paying for your own type rating... Exhausted raised the issue of high working hours...this is true... Without quoting one source too many times, the ryan-be-fair website had posted a finding that the average Ryanair pilot works 40 to 50% more than his easyjet colleagues for the same pay...not to slag off my friends at Ezy, its just for the sake of an example... Doors to Automatic had raised Safety not being an issue...again, the comment rebuted here about digging heads into the sand is valid...we have less and less experienced crew coming into the company whilst our newer destinations require more and more experience to handle...meanwhile day assignments are becoming considerably long promoting the further issue of fatigue worries... be under no illusion, in Ryanair, you will easily be away from home for over 12 hours, performing 4 take-offs and landings, five times a week in a row... Ryanair also likes to twist figures or tell what it considers to be white lies...there are no certainties in the company from which to base your existance, so you can think what you like of that "stable rostering"...it doesnt include having to jump between bases and sort out your own accomodation each time as every person who has gone through line training can relate to... I don't think anyone will have heard of a company where both pilots and flight crew are known to have to sleep at the airport to accomodate with the "company's needs" (both rostering AND fiscal)... Ryanair also enjoys to change terms and conditions of any agreement without telling you or even asking you...things as important as pay increases with progression...a topic I heard is becoming a serious worry amongst new first officers... Why would there be sites like ryan-be-fair.org or repaweb.org if this wasnt a serious issue? Why would these topics be on PPRune if degredation of conditions didnt in the least worry Ryanair staff? Lets not forget that an original topic on this website was removed because of complaints by "the plaintiff" (a little something we have to do to secure Danny's hard work on this forum, which is unfair to say the least) "Go to another airline!"... whoever says this just doesnt know the industry Job switching as a pilot is difficult, uncertain, and takes a long time... as any pilot knows getting an interview for a job is a big thing and is much more a foot in the door than it would be in other industries...dont forget were worth a lot more in investment costs through retraining and basing than say your regular accountant... being a pilot is supposed to be a career with one airline...job jumping makes airlines suspicious... sad part is many are doing just this...speaks for itself in light of this all Hope this enlightens some of you of my motivations for my posts... |
chickenscanfly
Lets not forget that an original topic on this website was removed because of complaints by "the plaintiff" (a little something we have to do to secure Danny's hard work on this forum, which is unfair to say the least) |
To Exhausted
well said, well put and very clearly explained.
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And so we come to the greatest fear...
What pressman has hit upon is exactly the greatest fear and threat to all of us...
Ryanair has always been revolutionary in how it does business... now its on the crest of something that is startling to ripple through the industry... Other airlines are looking at MOL and how he is reacting to this... and without a doubt they will guage how to deal with their pilots accordingly... its time for us to stop sticking our heads in the sand and finally take a stand...before we all become glorified bus drivers And viking, it wasnt your post (but that would have been removed as a result)...it was an entire forum topic that spanned 15 pages... |
screw the pooch
ryanair are so far into the cost cutting that they now are asking cabin crew how they can make more money from the punters.the latest target is three pounds and seventy pence per passenger the cabin crew have to screw out of each passenger.there is very little fat left on the calf,but there is a pilots meeting in stn soon,maybe they can screw a little more out of the flight crew suckers.
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On another posting
There is a thread running in Terms and Endearments about Ryanairs lack of conditions. It has been defended mainly by a Mrs(Ozi) Turret who has been making all kinds of wild claims about the COS at Ryanair, mainly about how wonderful it is there and the bags of money everyone is making. :rolleyes: At the same time, and one of the most appalling comments I have heard on these boards, is comparing pilot unions to terrorists. Go see for yourself. I have asked MT for an apology, but none has been forthcoming to date. ANY company who would align us with terrorists just because we would want decent working conditions and a fair deal has, IMHO, completely gone off the deep end.
I don't work for FR, just so you know, however it can be fixed. If you all stood together and told the management what you wanted and flat out refused to fly until such time as it was delivered, how long do you think the company would hold out? My guess, about as long as it took to type a decent agreement. Lets face it, whats his name is into making money, so if hes not, he will do something. It certainly won't be to shut down or go bankrupt, he'll be left with a mountain of debt to service and months and months of no flying at the earliest while he tried to sucker another group of idiots to work for him. Do yourselves a favour and stick together and stand up to him.:mad: Good luck Nosey |
Non Employed Pilot Interested Person Here - not a fan of MOL but have nothing agaist Ryanair who have never let me down (yet.....) - also not a Wannabee!
Obi Wan Kirk You said that you averaged 92 hours per month. Is that actually sat in the cockpit time or total duty time including booking on/off? What would the TDT be? Exhausted What are the maximum number of flying hours per year and is there a maximum on duty time? If you get paid a years salary but spend a couple of months at home 'resting' does that make a difference? Are there quick rounds where you can go several days with only an eight hour break before starting again or does it balance out? Are Ryanair bad at balancing it out? Navajo8686 |
Here we go already!
Navajo, open your eyes and your ears.:rolleyes: Just the type of sucker I was talking about. Didn't take long did it:(
Good luck boys, your going to need it with idiots like this cueing up. No wonder its farked:yuk: Nosey |
For lack of sympathy
NG - It might just be an innocent question
Navajo - Understandably, the pages of posts are quick a mountain to drudge through, but have a look again and youll grasp what level of importance Ryanair places upon employee relations 92 hours is sitting in cockpit time executing the flight... its literally off blocks till on blocks (parking brake released till parking brake set (guys, dont narrow this definition down please, its close enough like this)) Total time allowed per year is 900 block hours (again, block off till block on), and thats an Irish limitation. Ryanair has been pushing to extend this to 1,000 or more, but that would mean murder. It fluctuates whether FR pilots fly lots of long days with minimum rest inbetween each day (basically speaking, minimum rest must equate to the block hours flown before hand, down to a minimum level of 8 hours (i think it was)), or whether someone gets rostered a very easy week...there is no balancing done here, simply luck of the draw FR Pilots are also paid in basic pay and sector pay. The more sectors one flies, the more the sector pay is. Currently sector pay equates to around 2 times as much as what the basic pay is on a good month but, ofcourse, if youre out of hours or you have a slow month, you can find yourself with 1/3 the 'normal' salary for that month. |
I can't believe that someone who has apparently as much business acumen as MOL can be so stubborn - christ it's not even over money , yet it is probably costing him hundreds of thousands extra in fuel etc and goodwill among the pilots - full power all the way lads , let's run the APU for another few mins , oh no missed the slot , ah sure it's only fuel , I am sure that the pilots there are making him pay in there own way - if he can be given a way out that makes him look credible I am sure he would take it - his pride has got in the way in the past as well. Wait for the day when FR carry more pax than BA and the phrase 'world's favourite airline' will be redeployed. It would be fascinating to know who-did-what to MoL many years ago for him to be so driven. A man I hope never to meet in person and whose airline I have used once only and no intention of using again. I Also encourage others not to use him. If MoL were able to read this (rather than just his legal staff) then he would laugh at what I have just written. He does care but not about the same things as his staff. Having worked in commerce and local govertment and finance (and more) for 27 years, I have no doubt that MoL is being made to pay by his staff. :p -------------------- "I tell you, we are here on Earth to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you any different." Kurt Vonnegut, Jr. |
Small correction there,
the minimum rest is as long as the preceeding flight duty period (which is from 45mins before STD untill 30mins after On Blocks) and the ABSOLUTE MINIMUM is never less then 10 hours (not 8). Ziggy |
7 1/2 hrs. is the absolute minimum. Anything less is considered to be "ground time".
You're probably getting your "CAO" (T&C's for you anglo-saxons) confused with the legal minima... Back to the drawing board I guess ;-) |
Chickenscanfly
Thank you for your reply - I now understand far better. Whilst there are pages and pages of threads about Ryanair I wanted to make sure that I understood the current rules (which may or may not have changed over time) so that I could make an informed opinion. As a consequence of your lucid and helpful reply I do now understand in far greater detail what the problem is. Nosegears' reply did not help at all - it's difficult to be either understanding or sympathetic when you get berated for asking a civil question! From my point of view I have never been mistreated by Ryanair as a passenger - however I must admit that I am not happy when employers treat staff like dirt (whether it be an airline or a burger bar) and try to avoid said employers (unless there is no other choice than Hobson's Choice!) Regards and thank you Navajo8686 |
Youre welcome navajo...
And I hope Im not railroading Nosegear with this by saying that his reaction is one we all feel at first towards such questions as your initial one... its a constant frusteration which is taking a much greater hold on the industry as a whole...this apparent disregard to the time, effort, and financial sacrifice made by pilots to do their job... sure we love doing it, but we also pay a price to do it, which makes the whole issue all the more complicated Ziggy, thanks for the correction |
My God fellas! Remember the bottom line is what your prepared to accept. How anyone can imagine less than £40K per year for jockying a 737 about the sky is good pay, utterly astounds me. Professional aviation is a hard task master. It impinges on your 'lifestyle' more intrusively than most other jobs of an equivalent pay bracket.
It always amazes me that flight crew are prepared to sell their talents so bloody cheaply. In any other walk of life with the same levels of intelligence and committment to the job you'd be away flying (forgive the pun) to the stars. In aviation your constantly at the mercy of the instant impact of changes in global ecomomy, there is no cushioning in aviation. You are suject to the whimful direction of, at best, cavalier management and just when it seems that you might get through to pensionable age, the company stalls, the pension scheme stalls and your back where you started, just another qualified 'jock' with little else to sell to a future employer. Get off your bums and like Oliver Twist ask for more!! |
Well said Teapea Friends of mine with equivalent qualifications are creaming the money in. Even the CC serving tea and coffee pull in more dosh than our average airbus jockey. Who's fault is that? Certainly not the management whose job it is to minimise costs. Interesting that they'll fork out 40K for someone to serve tea and coffee, and yet begrudge 30K for a copilot. Unfortunately, apathy rules in aviation. Pilots are just relieved to have a job in order to get a return on their investment/training. Other people in the airline would just walk if their T & C's weren't up to scratch.
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Ryanair,fact or fiction
Can anyone please confirm the exact pay scales for Ryanair?
Flying a lot of hours per month and not being treated well is fine , but there must be some sort of compensation for the level of treatment. I am already flying B737 in the low cost sector and am considering a change, with a view to getting a base that I want,i am sure that I am in the same boat as a lot of people. Thank God the industry has swung again, with the shoe firmly on our feet. We must ask for more money.The companies often ask us to tighten our belts.Flight crew are only accounting for 6% of the total cost of any given low cost sector .With fuel topping the bill at 39%.Non pilots who work in the airlines , please remember this , especially accountants. |
RYR Payscales
As is for a starting F/O, ryanair eventually pays in sector pay and basic pay
sector pay equates to aroud 2/3 of the total salary, basic covers the last 1/3 sector pay is related to the number of scheduled block hours you are rostered to fly, and can either be paid by the hour exactly, or you may fall into an older sector pay table scheme (3 to 5 hours so much, 5 to 7 hours so much, etc) basic pay remains the same each month if you do not fly for an entire month (eg: out of hours), you get no sector pay. if you report sick for a day, sector pay is also not paid out F/Os begin on around a basic salary of GBP 1,000 a month in a UK base. sector pay on a good month reachs about 1,800 a month. a bad or slow month will get you 1,200 however, an F/O entering training will not be paid anything during the type rating course nor the wait until the start of line training (which is always an undefined period, and in some cases takes 4 months) once training begins, no salary is yet paid until the safety pilot is released from the flight deck (20 sectors). Then only half sector pay is paid only. Once line training is completed, basic pay is finally awarded but not backdated. You still remain on half sector pay. Not until you receive a permanent contract and base do you receive full sector pay. This, however, can take anywhere up to 6 months after the end of line training. theres a good calculation about all this in the forum topic "Terms of Endearment" |
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