BA DEP rumour
 

Well well this IS interesting ...

I have just been informed by a certain secret wannabe agent that I know, who operates deep within the bowels of BA recruitment department, that they have observed the preparation of a full page splash ad for publication in Flight International within "the next several weeks", inviting renewed applications for the British Airways Direct Entry Pilot scheme.

The words "type rated" and "2500 hours TT" were also overheard, and the numbers being bandied around are between 200 and 300 pilots required before the end of the year, for just about all the fleets, with probably another 3 to 4 hundred in 2005.

Hold onto your hats people, good times are heading back in a BIG way :O :O :O

H'mm sounds promising.

If true it will open up the ladder again for the FI, TP then Jet progression.

Mind you we better and wait and see lots of things could happen in 1 month.

MJ

If this is true, I can see that the likes of EJ/FR will be trembling in their boots. I bet they are full of folk just waiting for this oportunity.

All the fleets? Last I heard it was going to be the 744 and 777.
Good news either way!

--
HaM:}

Oh how this would hurt the already creaking training program that these LCC's have. With eJ struggling to keep their fleet flying due to the intensive training required for TWO a/c types and RYR pilots simmering just below the surface, this could be a summer of discontent for those airlines where they have been continually undermining their pilots T's & C's. I think a few of the IT operators could find themselves struggling to crew their fleets this summer too if BA start to draw in experienced pilots.

The Cutthroat Business School of management that requires savings to made by eroding the crews T's & C's instead of looking at their own excesses is going to come back and haunt them. Watch out for lots of delays and cancellations with the LCC's and IT operators this summer if BA make their move. In fact, it could be a brilliant plan by BA just to show what a large operator with enough fat can do to undermine those LCC's that have been taking pokes at it for so long. :eek:

Be very good if this happens, fingers crossed

Goodbye TRSS, Goodbye you need a type rating, Goodbye we will give you a job if you buy your own type rating, Goodbye CTC, Goodbye................ etc etc etc.

May the good times return and rebalance the whole aviation job market.

There will always be a few migrants to the perceived 'greener' grass of BA, but I am assuming that their final salary pension scheme is closed to direct entry new joiners? If so I don't think you will get an exodus from the charter operators, apart from perhaps those where pilots feel they are lacking job security......

And also their starting package aint what it used to be is it? I am not so sure that 'experienced' guys who are several steps up the charter pay scales would much fancy a drop in terms and conditions with a very long time to command. I dunno though, maybe I'm wrong. Just my thoughts.

PP

I heard the same rumour...

and you know the rule, if you hear the same rumour from three different sources then it must be true!

Good news all round if it happens. This will allow a few more to jump up a rung on the career ladder... Hopefully leaving the bottom rung free for me! ;)

I caught the guy from BA at the FLYER show. The exact number is not publicly known - but I get the feeling it is 100-200 not more.

The story goes that BA is looking mostly for 747 and 777 pilots due to retirements. The problem it has is that most of its existing pilots are frozen out from changing type because many/most of them have changed type in the last few years, and company rules bar another change. Furthermore, there are no other UK 777 operators, and not many 747 operators. It is therefore going hunting at Virgin and Emirates (not low houred wannabees). Frankly it is going to struggle.

Virgin is already recruiting, and not many people leave.

Easyjet needs 300 pilots to fill the 22 new planes (plus leavers and retirees) this year, or more if many leave to BA/Virgin (I reckon nearer 400). This number will be repeated next year.

Put it together and you should have a real shortage coming at the end of this year. But I dont see them panicking and coming directly to the wannabee market yet. Did one person get a call after the Bournemouth roadshow? No, they were hunting for EAAC pilots.

BTW BMIbaby has taken people out of the Astraeaus type rating course. So it still looks like you have to pay for a TR, or else be with CTC, to get a job.

I heard 80 pilots required for the 777 fleet alone ... and show me anyone with THAT type rating who's looking for a job at the moment? Same goes for the 744.

They'll obviously have to lay on type ratings for the majority of people that go onto those fleets at least.

The interesting thing will be the LCCs, whether captains are willing to jump ship and join the bottom of the BA seniority list, and a lot of the FOs will have a dilemma as well, in that many of them are still shouldering the bulk of the £20 grand loan they took out to get on board with Easy / Ryan / Excel / BMIbaby / Astraeus ... are they willing and able to jump ship, knowing that they'll still be paying off that type rating for years to come and they'll probably get a command in 3 years with their existing LCC as opposed to 10-15 with BA.

I would imagine that regardless of their seniority, most of Mytravel will have a CV in pretty quickly, none of those people can be feeling too secure in their jobs after recent events.

Whilst the LH Fleets will be prime poaching for BA, anyone with an A320 type rating (inc. an Orange one!) I am sure would be welcome. We are getting A321s from November, and also potentially moving A319s to LGW (different base = BA cannot just move currently rated guys there easily)...

Airbus delivery plan (a bit out of date) 6 A321 '04, 4 A321 '05 and 6 A319/320 '06 - a 25%+ increase in the fleet in 3 years.

NoD

I know a few guys in BA shorthaul who were considering leaving recently. Clearly BA ain't what it used to be and 10-12 years to a bus command doesn't appeal widely. If they start hiring for longhaul then I'm sure they'll get a good uptake but if its for shorthaul they may be a little disappointed.

Not sure about BA's final salary's pension scheme since nobody has been taken on since they announced the end of it.
Again like PP said, unlikely to see a large move across from the Charters to BA... When it comes to long haul, Britannia for example has increased significantly its operation and there is more to come therefore making it more interesting for those who like that kind of things.

BA is appealing to a point but it is no longer the only major player when it comes to recruitment so things might be a little tougher for them when it comes to attract experienced people.
I agree though, any recruitment is good news for everyone but remember as well that European Air Charter is in serious trouble with lots of people ready to move.... tomorrow.
The guys working for Mytravel might also want to have a look just in case, at least I would anyway.

Time to command... Well that s an issue when you are very experienced pilot and not that happy in the outfit you work for. Personnally I have a great lifestyle (not BA), varied routes (SH, MH, LH, interesting mid term contracts etc...) and money is pretty good. I may not be a typical case, although not that special really so joining BA would not bring any real improvement (apart from flying the 74/77 but frankly will it matter that much after you have been there 3 years?)
I am sure there are lots of happy guys at BA (and I would be) but can't think they are happier than me!

All this rambling to say that all of you, looking for a first job should make sure they update their file EVERYWHERE. You never know, your lucky day could just be around the corner.

Well I hate to rain on any Wannabes parade here but....

Anyone who joined a LCC in the last year or two is heavily bonded and won't have the jet hours required for BA. Anyone in a LCC for 3 years or so who does have the hours and may not be bonded is looking at a Command this year. Anyone who got a Command this year is going to stay put to get some hours in and is very likely busy expanding their lifestyle to suit Skippers money.

Anyone who has a few years Command experience will be in at least the top third of the pilot list if it were to come to redundancy. This a comfortable place to be whereas right on the bottom of the BA list with Bin Laden stalking Crawley is - frankly - not.

Quite a few LCC pilots are based in the regions and very likely are desperate to keep it that way.

Histotically there have always been some pilots willing to take a cut and move to the security of BA with the promise of That Pension. Personally this time I think BA offer no more security than any other airline - they were on pretty thin ice 2 years ago - and That Pension has now gone.

It will be quite some time before Ryanar stops you from buying a type rating or easyJet radically improves its TRSS.

Cheers

WWW

Hello all,

These figures were correct as of two weeks ago when I had my SEP renewal. As all of those BA people know, we are now required to sit through a post lunch management forum. Sounds ok, but it is more often than not hosted by the monkeys and not the organ grinders.

Anyway this is what we were told:

Approx 150 DEP's this year, starting around September (I think, but can't remember exactly).

BA still unsure of numbers for subsequent years.

DEP's being recruited onto most fleets, including short haul. This is in order to allow those SFO's with valid bids to transfer onto 400/777.

Expect muchos outcry if all DEP's go long haul, resulting in SFO's being held short haul for longer than their freeze. A potentially troublesome situation for the powers that be to (mis) manage?

As I say, this was two weeks ago, so the policy could have done a complete 180 in that time!

Ta very much...

Mary

Pretty certain that 150 DEP's to start end Summer04. DEP's can only go to LH once all the SH guys who want to go to LH have moved. The EXCEPTION to this are the guys who have done less than 5 years in the company because they are not fully part of the internal bidding system, their bids are frozen. To be honest all the guys with 5 years under their belt that wanted to go to LH are already there.

That means that type rated pilots on Airbus, 777, 747 will be required in big numbers as we are short on all fleets.

The pay is as good as it has ever been and for those at the bottom of the seniority list it is by far the best it has ever been. All fleets work very hard these days but that seems to be industry wide.

Pension...this is still under negotiation but BALPA have promised a strike ballot if a FSS pension is not offered to new joiners. It is looking likely that the accural rates may be increased to help offset the problem that NAPS has at the moment. But you will have the chance to work past 55 so it's not all doom and gloom. Put your money on FSS pension paid at 56ths (as opposed to 52nds)

Command times..well you will have to do your time in the trenches. Nobody joining today (but things always change in this biz) will get a command for at least 12-14 years. LH commands will probably never be an option to those joining unless they are well below 30. You need to be in the top 1200 to get a LH command and BA has about that amount below 30 already working for them.

Another bad point is that BA can do what it likes with you for the first 5 years. That's the rules. We have plenty of pilots who were recruited to fly 777/747 (actually written on their contracts) only to be told this had changed the day they entered Cranebank. BA couldn't really give a stuff about your old type rating once you start and this makes very little difference to the training that you will do. (In lots of ways it is easier to train guys who aren't type rated but thats for another thread.) The reason they want type rated guys is that this means people aren't joining just to get a type rating, remeber there is no bond with BA. So thats something worth baring in mind, you join the airline not a specific fleet. You have been warned.

Good luck to all those that apply.

Online Application
 

Hello Everyone,

This news does sound very positive!

I'm quite new to PPRuNe; I'm a Canadian commuter pilot and am just starting to look at converting my licence to JAA ATPL. I have Swiss citizenship so I'm fairly sure I have (at least) the right to work in the UK.

I wanted to get a jump on getting an application in to BA, and was just on their jobs website. Is there any way to fill out an application (other than an expression of interest) when there are no pilot vacancies posted? Any info would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers!:8

Wiggum75,

Its not been advertised yet so no app form.

Don't you have to have EU citizenship to work in the UK?

Is Switzerland part of the EU?

Surely all this jumping ship costs airlines more in retraining, unstablility etc than the initial savings of making people pay for everything with pants t & c's and a lack of loyalty!

I'm sure a happy work force is more productive and the sooner the bean counters lose the lever, all airlines should reep all the benefits

You do not have to have EU citizenship to work in the UK. Switzerland is not part of the EU. I believe that Switzerland have a bilateral agreement with the UK allowing 'freedom' of labour between the two countries.

For example, you would be unable to work in Italy (an EU member) but you could work in the UK as a Swiss national.

Since the new pay restructuring life has never been so good for the junior guys. People now just bid for a lifestyle that suits them, those with families want week-ends off, single guys want to be in Helsinki on a saturday night! Lines of work do not vary much in money terms so you just bid for what suits you.

What is the preoccupation with time to command, once you get there the quest is over. Yes the command time in BA is longer than others, but the opportunities are greater too. Fly RHS SH for a while then go and play with the 400 for a few more years. Before you know it your number will be up and you can return to SH to remember how to fly again!

BA will look first to fill the Airbus slots with type rated pilots to fill the new 321 slots. Once all the internal bids to LH have been processed then DEP's will be recruited to the LH fleets.

WWW, I dearly hope your comment about Bin Laden doesn't come back to haunt you my friend, we are all as vulnerable as each other. He could just as well go for the Easy option.

fruitbat - another Bin Laden event would hurt all airlines. My point was merely that being at the bottom of a list is an inhibiting factor in deciding to move employers during these uncertain times - which is what would be involved for DEP recruitment.

No doubt BA will be able to attract plenty of pilots for its ranks.

I just don't think it will be a stampede as it has in the past. Mind you - if they bring back the final salary pension then that would sway a lot of people.

Cheers

WWW

Fruitbat,

single guys want to be in Helsinki on a saturday night!

please explain?

With all respect to the low cost carriers apart from a quick command what long term career do they offer. BA can offer a mix of both long and short haul and the abliity to do this on various aircraft types.

What does one do when they get a quick command, say at less than 30 ?

Do you really expect to sit in the LHS for another 25-30 yrs busting a gut flying multi-sector days etc etc

Where and what do you do when you decide to leave the LCC ? Bottom of the seniority list again ?

I agree with JET A1, I mean being RHS is not that bad depending on who you work for.
Personally I do a mixture of Short Haul, Medium and Long Haul (in the winter).
Also we have some ad hoc flights or contracts taking us to Indonesia for two months, Scandinavia for 10 days at a time, New Zealand for 5 months etc...
All on a voluntary basis so for those amongst who rather a stable roster back in the UK, we also have that option.

Of course our time to command until now was very long (up to 15 years) but frankly who cares. I mean a command is a good thing if you want to go elsewhere (or need to) but at the moment I really believe I have a great lifestyle. Much better than I would have in the LCC. As for the money issue, well it is not the most important but then again by volunteering for such and such contract I am not doing badly at all.

BA was a career airline, chances are that is still the case. Don't think there is much there for me but for an LCC pilot, what a pleasant shock it must be to work there.

We are all after different things, we just need to realise what we want and when we have found it.
The way the world goes these days, who knows what can happen? Enjoy life is what I have chosen... and I do.

Whats wrong with 30 years in the LHS of A319/B737 European shorthaul?

Who gives a toss how big your jet is, how many engines its got or how fast it goes. They all look, operate and feel the same.

No desire to fly long or medium haul and spend days in hotels with colleagues. Shorthaul is shorthaul these days. BA EOG are doing as many hours as easyJet. Same stuff - different logo down the side.

Plus who would choose to work out of Heathrow?

Oh, and LoCo's give you the option of working on the continent. Seen what selling your 4 bed detatched in grotty Crawley will buy you 30 minutes South of Paris? Or 30 minutes East of Belfast?

but for an LCC pilot, what a pleasant shock it must be to work there.

Hmmn, lets see. No fixed roster pattern so I don't know what I am doing a month from now. No bidding power. Car park miles from report. Cabin crew earning more than me. No command for the rest of the decade. No command on long haul ever. 840hrs a year. No final salary pension. Top of the list for redundancies if they ever happen. Got to move and live near Gatwick/Heathrow. Pay cut for 5 years. BA politics. Slightly smarter uniform.

Low Cost flying ain't Nirvana but I don't see EOG as being Paradise by a long chalk.



Cheers

WWW

www
 

30 minutes east of Belfast...that would be a boat then!

Like I said www, it s all about lifestyle and I don't think BA nor Easyjet would be able to give me anything more than I already have.
Having shared a flat with an Easy pilot, I don't really find 6 On 3 Off as an advantage. I mean I work 17 days a month at the most. (How many days at home, a LH BA pilot enjoys every month then?)
Last summer, his roster kept changing and....
Unlike me, he can't live in Nice or enjoy a very stable roster (no change in the past 12 months if it wasn't for a canceled flight with plenty of notice).
Working out for LGW, I have solved the car park prolem. I don't need 30 minutes to get there because of course when you commute, you don't really need a car ;).

You also refer to the fact that BA cabin crew would earn more than you. I worked as cabin crew for BA in 1999... My basic was £9666 pa. I suspect You are then certainly refering to the "Old contract" but then you should compare a current BA pilot salary on the old contract too. Things have changed but not only for pilots you see.

"No command on long haul ever". Well obviously not your priority so doesn't really matter.

"No final salary pension" Do you have one at Easyjet ?
I do (for the time being anyway).

Anyway, LCCs being still relatively new, only in 10-15 years will we be able to see if that type of operation really is a career one.
Perhaps it is, perhaps it isn't but carriers like BA, Britannia and others have certainly nothing to prove in that area.

WWW, See you at CraneBank again then? ;)

Spotted ya back in 1998 at the "Corporate Buffet!" :ok:

Gosh is that really 6 years ago?!? Frightening how time flies.

For most LCC pilots moving to BA shorthaul means a big pay cut, command prospects go back 10 years plus you have to work out of LHR/GWK and endure massive politics. You will be sat on the top of the lay off list instead of the bottom, you'll be expected to fly more than 800hrs a year and there is supposedly no final salary pension scheme.

You'll lose a fixed 5/3 or 6/3 roster for the charms of Carmen + the lowest bid priority.

As always there will be plenty of applicants I am sure. But not - as implied - from the LCAs. I don't know a single FO at work who would dream of applying. More likely perhaps the FO's in GB or BMed who can see the writing on the Franchise Renewal wall..?

Cheers

WWW

Stop, stop, stop! This is not the forum to discuss the pros and cons of joining BA as a DEP. If you have, or are likely to have by the time the ad comes out, the hours and experience that BA require, then you shouldn't be in this forum. Terms and Endearments is the place to discuss your points and preconceptions. I will, if necessary, split off your discussion to that forum.

This forum is for those who have never yet held a commercial position, and so the only point of relevence to this thread is what effect BA re-entering the DEP market will have on those carriers who do employ low-houred pilots. Which is the question asked in the first place (at least by mad_jock!).

Discuss....

Scroggs

PS The numbers suggested seem a little unlikely, as BA has not taken delivery of any significant numbers of new aircraft, has few on order, and hasn't lost (nor will lose) that many pilots in the near future. I would have thought, for the moment, that 150 per year would be about the maximum they could absorb from other airlines - if those pilots wanted to go to BA, which is not a given!

Sorry! Back to the topic relevant to Wannabes.....

True, slap myself on the wrist. But it is interesting for Wannabes to learn something of the politics of employment in the UK. With so much focus on the first job - any job - rarely do discussions reach beyond to encompass whole careers.

Cheers

WWW

Retirements in British Airways are running at 2 per week. So the figure of 150 per year to replace lost pilots is about right.

12 A321's on the way...4 to arrive in Oct

WWW you're right, of course; topics about the wider implications of BA recruiting are both relevant and interesting, but the discussion was getting on to things of specific interest only to those who might apply to any DEP scheme - and it's that bit I want to put a halt to, or at least subdue. Oh sod it, let's go for it..... :p

So, on that note - Justbelowcap, I'd assumed that these A321s are 757 replacements. Is that in fact the case, or are they additional to the fleet? If they are additional, obviously that will have a significant effect on BA's recruiting requirements (by the way, what is BA's shorthaul crew/aircraft ratio?). If they are replacements for 757s (and 767s?), there will be no net requirement for crews.

As for retirements, 100-150 per year is what I'd heard from other sources, and is consistent with the size and age of BA's pilot workforce. There may be a change in or around 2006 with forthcoming employment legislation intended to allow later retirement, but the effect of that legislation on existing contracts, particularly pensionable ones, isn't yet clear (to me, at least!).

As for the sources of BA's DEPs, I imagine that a significant proportion will be ex-military, as is traditional - though the numbers perforce will be less than in the past. There is little to tempt Virgin pilots to BA. Emirates might produce a few disaffected by the current direct-entry command scheme, and BMI will probably provide quite a few who are terminally disaffected with that airline's recent management style. The British charter scene may yield some, but most of their pilots seem pretty happy with their lot, and would not relish shorthaul scheduled flying with any airline. EZ and Ryan are obvious targets - particularly the ex-mil guys with a few years and a few thousand hours of civvy flying under their belts but, as WWW says, BA's T's & C's are no longer as unassailable as they once were - and Virgin offers a longer career, guaranteed longhaul, and nearly as much salary (though the pension and allowances are nowhere near as good).

So, I reckon BA will have no trouble finding 100+ a year, but 3-400 DEPs (should that number ever be required)? Not from UK......

Scroggs

Well given that the consensus seems to be, that the lion's share of the recruitment will be to the 777 and 744 fleets, do you really think they'll get anywhere near enough type rated applicants (apart from maybe a few disillusioned EK people)?

And if not, how do you think they'll handle the 'type rated' requirement ... is it worth it for turboprop drivers to throw down a CV?

WWW, DEP's coming into BA would not have to "endure Carmen" as they would be flying long haul under bid line rules.

Incidentally, Carmen is only in force at LGW on the short haul fleet, and it is being replaced in September with Heathrow's bid line. Just thought you'd like to know.

WWW
Sorry to go on a bit, but where did you get the 840 hours a year from?!! BA's scheduling agreement puts the community maximum at 770 hours.
And you will probably find that spending days down route with your colleagues would appeal to the vast majority of wannabes!

As always ill informed debate and comment on both BA recruitment and what its like to work at both LHR and LGW, most of it coming from WWW, who has been pontificating on various companies recruitment and T & Cs (or lack of them) mostly inaccurately since I stumbled on this forum in 1998. WWW I realise your happy with your lot in orange land, but there are always going to be people who are not. Your point of view reference BA is like a stuck record, to be played over and over again.

The good news is that this does seem more than a rumour; an internal advert has been posted for Pilot recruiters. The numbers appear to be circa 90-110 candidates to be placed on the airbus at LHR/LGW and the 777.A mole tell me there will be little or no recruitment onto the 747 since the company can fill these positions from valid bidders internally. I think to save money those with the relevant type ratings will have an advantage. As has been discussed at great length the company may struggle in this respect with the 777

Sundance, as you can tell I share your view with WWWs internal looking fogged up sunglasses.

WWW - I'v read (and contributed to) the threads on people angry at EZY and RYR - and I'm struggling to see why your arguments are so pervasive.

Big pay cut - how does that compare with the overall value of the package (pension, travel, benefits)? Hasn't stopped loads of guys leaving to go to VS/EK.

Command prospects go back 10yrs - Bus conversions, contract pilots, huge numbers of new F/O's - their not exactly getting better at EZY neither.

Work out of LGW and endure massive politics - Hello?

Top of the layoff list - well, in the LCCs we ALL are.

Fly more than 800hrs a year - a) rubbish; b) Hello?

No final salary pension scheme - you guessed it - Hello?

If BA's doors are opened you'll be choking on dust.

I think from the wannabe's POV expansion among the majors is the best news to happen since 9/11. People ARE going to leave the LCC's, the LCCs ARE going to need new people to replace losses and crew their expansion, and they ARE NOT going to do it with CTC cadets. Opportunities will trickle down to the regionals and spaces will be created at the bottom of the wannabe food chain.

Let the good times roll!