840hrs comes from someone who did that at Gatwick last year. I didn't know Carmen was going.

Doubtless BA will not struggle to recruit - especially if they do reinstate the pension. As I've said all along.

Its been said for decades that BA's T&C's aren't what they used to yadda yadda yadda... who would bother with them... blah blah blah. This was just another of those discussions.

The good news is that they are finally recruiting again.

Cheers,

WWW

Slim,

anyone whose been reading the board since 1998 will know that the Welsh Wonder won't be applying to BA

I can assure you 840 hours is Rubbish. As is the definite implementation of Bid Line at LGW.

DaDog, as a guest in this forum, please keep it clean and polite. If you are current BA aircrew, you can help by informing others rather than flaming others.

Scroggs

Scroggs,

I can keep it clean, but don't chuck your toys when I point out information coming from your esteemed moderator is complete rubbish .Furthermore, as you can tell I detest the constant inacurate diatribe about life in general at BA from an ill informed outsider.

I thought that Da Dog's comments were useful to the wannabe since they are informative and true.
Surely what should be moderated are baseless comments rather than the opposite.

Just a thought anyway.

Low Houred
 

I'm still at the ppl atpl stage so this does not affect me, but I'm just musing over some of these comments.

Accorcding to some above, a lot of LCC and charter pilots will not apply to BA for various reasons mentioned. Also BA's T&C's not that great to attract suitable pilots.

Taking this to an extreme (hypothetically), what if the situation arose where they could not attract the DEP's required number? (highly unlikely I think), would BA then open up to newbies? If so I would guess they would call on BAE, Oxford etc for the integrated boys and girls. And finally on the modular people. Or would they take on foreign DEP's first? Any comments?

johnnypharm

That scenario will never, I repeat NEVER happen.

BA will always be able to attract people from UK airlines. Maybe not from Britannia...people like AMEX...however they will be able to get enough from others.

BA, like all airlines are in a food chain. BA are near the top, so even if the terms are not what they were in the past...they are still likely to be better than other airlines.

And BA will always get some people to apply in order to say.... I work for BA.

On your question though, I imagine they would go to OAT,CTC etc.

They will attract the DEPs they need. If they didn't they would just up the package a bit. Even as it stands they'd get plenty of interest and if they are offering the final salary pension for new joiners then there will be considerable interest throughout the industry.

Lots of people seem to be saying that the old style full sponsorship cadet scheme is now a thing of the past and I have no reason to disbelieve that view.

Cheers

WWW

DaDog, I'm sorry, but phrases like 'chuck your toys' are exactly the sort of rudeness I mean. You wouldn't talk to me like that if we were face to face, so why do it on this board?

When inaccuracies are posted, by all means correct them - if you are certain of your facts. If you have a difference of opinion, by all means argue your corner, but if you can't do it without aggressive and provocative language then I'd rather you didn't do it at all. It's unhelpful, disrespectful of all the other users of this forum, and unnecessary, whatever your personal opinion of WWW.

Johnnypharm there is no danger of BA not getting the numbers of DEPs that it needs, though the sources may not be what they were in the past. Any kind of direct-entry fATPL recruiting seems very unlikely to me, as BA have always preferred to have control over the training of their ab-initio recruits. They can always get the experienced DEPs to fill their short-term needs while they develop a replacement for the old Cadet system, should they decide that's the way they want to go.

Scroggs

Scroggs,

thats where your wrong...... I would say it to your face if I felt I needed to!


I also think that WWW is big enough to fight his own battles;)

Wheelbarrow, WWW, Scroggs
 

I know the scenario I mentioned will never happen, that is why I put the word "hypothetically" in the prose.

The only reason this scenario came into my head was that there were a lot of reasons for not becoming a BA DEP in this thread and lots of reasons for remaining a LCC or charter airline pilot.

Finally I said, "taking it to extremes" there being not enough DEP applications I was just wondering wht the pecking order would be (hypothetically of course) if this was in fact the case.

John

If BA don't get enough interest following the first attempt the requirement will reduce to 2000hrs experience then 1500, then 1000, then low hour people from integrated courses though this has never happened in the past and is unlikely to happen any time soon. I certainly don't think they'll be upping the package a bit.

I don't think they'd need to up the package - just include the Final Salary Pension for new joiners. That seems to be the deal breaker for a lot of people.

Frankly it will be very interesting indeed to see what happens when BA starts hiring again. One hears so many views and theories that the actuality will be enlightening.

For the bonding and promotion reasons stated some posts ago I don't see a flood of people leaving EZY for it. The case for Virgin appears sound. Can't see too many coming back from the desert once they've taken the big plunge and Done It.

Would people in the BA franchises not be the most likely candidates? Same job, different (better) T&C's and no worries about franchise renewal. Maybe, who knows.

All good stuff though for the Wannabe in the street. Time to start training I think.

Perhaps - as has been seen in the past - there will be an initial burst of job opportunities as things finally turn into an upswing. Promptly followed a year later by a tidal wave of people who started or renewed their training on the basis of the initial burst.

Cheers

WWW

Spoke with a BA skipper last night very briefly after a long haul sector to the new side of the pond. Recruting is in fact firing up and he mentioned a few things. 100 pilots plus was said and requirements would be full ATPL, 2500 hours with a type etc. It is safe to say that this will attract plenty of attention from those with the requirements. The airline does have a fairly steady retirement flow so recrutiment could be steady for some time.

It all adds up to an improving future in the UK market. Coupled with Easy and Ryans needs not to mention of course Virgin and others, things are on the up and up.

Yes, I agree that this is all good news for wannabes. Whatever the requirements at BA finally turn out to be, it's clear that they must recruit soon, if only to remain at the strength they are now. The same is true of almost all European airlines, and the reports from BAA et al of record passenger numbers back up the impression that the recovery (at least on our side of the Atlantic) is well under way.

What I'd really like to see is a resurgence of the sponsorship schemes that were such a feature of the market just 5 or so years ago. There aren't too many substantial rumours yet, but I do think that it's only a matter of time. Hopefully, this recovery will also remove, or seriously reduce, the pressure for new guys to pay for their own type ratings.

For now, we'll just have to wait and see what happens - but times are, at last, looking up.

Scroggs

BA nowadays is not all its cracked up to be -- Not sure what you are getting at, talking about the franchsie renewal ? Why is this going to be such a big deal ? What's the worst that could happen ? These guys end up on the BA seniority list without having to put sticklebricks together and all that stuff !! BA will not allow BMed and GB to go it alone especially with them owning precious LHR slots - Imagine a GB - EZY/FR tie up -- Orange out of LHR ! BA would really enjoy that !

Just to add, GB recruits cadets from ab initio courses and seemingly will continue to do so for the future.

I would imagine they will recruit somewhat less than 130 and somewhat more than 125...if I were a betting man!

Honest question scroggs, why in the hell would you like to see that? For sure it seems that the job market is turning itself around, but it has just gone through one of the worst and most protracted downturns in its history ... there are still hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of capable pilots out there with ATPLs, waiting patiently while they batter away in C152s or turboprops if they're lucky, all of whom would love jet jobs, without re-introducing these ridiculous sponsorships and the artificial imbalance in the job market that they create.

From the employer's point of view, sure, they may allow for a certain amount of certainty in their recruitment planning in times of 'genuine' pilot shortages, and perhaps even ensure a bit of hypothetical gratitude and loyalty from a portion of their crews, but we are still a long long way away from a 'pilot shortage' at the FATPL level by anyone's standards.

What I'd like to see is their permanent demise from the UK market forever more ... to make this place more like every other part of the world, where a shiny jet job is actually the reward for the people who have proved their worth and their commitment by doing a few years of hard work in pistons and turboprops. As opposed to getting it handed to them on a big silver plate with 200 hours to their names :yuk: :yuk: :yuk:

F.W.I.W. the gossip I have, is that the BA ab-initio cadet sponsorship is gone, forever, or at least never to return while Mr Eddington is in charge. Can't say I'm crying in my milk over it :D

So what happens then to the many people who have the commitment, passion, determination and intelligence to fly jets, but don't have the chance to access the profession of their dreams due to lack of finance to pay for there own training?

Well said Luke

It’s a tough World out there Silent boy.

Why should some little smart arse have it put on a plate to them when there are hundreds out there who have risked everything and get nothing. Don't give me all that tosh about lack of finance. I've met scores of people who have done !!!!e jobs day and night to save the pennies. It can be done if you're cut out.

It really winds me up hearing those whingers on the other sponsorship thread running at the mo who go on about how worried they are because they haven't received a notification emails and missed cut-off dates blah blah blah. They ought to have some of the REAL worries of others on here who can't pay the mortgage or fill the car with petrol.

Having said that sponsorships provide a small number compared to the general picture, but the less I hear about them the better!

luke and tom

"...there are still hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of capable pilots out there with ATPLs, waiting patiently while they batter away in C152s or turboprops if they're lucky, all of whom would love jet jobs, without re-introducing these ridiculous sponsorships and the artificial imbalance in the job market that they create."

Luke,

whilst I agree with some of your sentiment, you have to face facts. Big airlines do like to pre select their inexperienced pilots. This fact will most likely never change. I work for a large UK charter airline and have attended a few wannabee shows myself. Both as a wannabee and as a company representative.

My chief pilot reminded me about three years ago that not everyone is suitable for our airline. He added that he would probably only be interested in talking to a small percentage of people at the conference. In fact, most of these people already had jobs.... his meaning was that he would like to see some training history and an audit trail..... to reduce risk.

The industry has always worked this way, and it most likely will not change now.

As for BA starting recruiting, I think it is good news, however I would not be optimistic that any wannabees will get in. They will be looking for certain things like I have just mentioned.

As far as cadetships go.... I think they have gone for ever in the old BA style. You may find that BA join up with someone like CTC in future. They do speak to each other you know!

I don't like to sound downbeat, but I really don't think a lot has changed for the wannabees. You cannot afford to not try your butts off to get any kind of flying. Only the ones who really want it will get it..... the industry has always been that way. Unfortunately.

Tom,

I understand your frustrations, but you should look at how your last post came across.... poor CRM at the very least. I, like you had all the sh1t to deal with. Like mortgages. However, just as you have no interest in hearing about sponsorship whingers.... I bet they don't want to hear about your mortgage. Unfortunately.
:(

"Big airlines" may indeed "like to pre select their inexperienced pilots" wheelbarrow, but you forget that this country is in fact one of only a handful in the world where big airlines are daft enough to employ inexperienced pilots in the first place, let alone spend their hard earned cash on actually paying for their training :rolleyes:

Try and get an ab-initio sponsorship out of United Airlines or American or Delta sometime, and watch them hit the ground laughing at the very concept of letting some greenhorn CPL anywhere near their airplanes :ok:

That's a nice attitude you have their tom24 "boy"!! You need to get some facts before you start patronsing people. I've worked damn hard all my life to get into a position where I can afford to make my way in the profession I always wanted. Nothing has been handed to me on a plate, I got out there and fought for every scrap I could get to allow me to get into this career. I have been offered a place on the CTC cadet scheme and am damn proud of it. I've gone without for many years to get here and certainly don't appreciate your cheap, dismissive name throwing of 'smart-arse'.

Numerous commercial firms and the military offer some form of sponsorships or scholarships for just a very few people - it has always been that way and nothing wrong with it, it just helps a very few people get onto the first rung of the ladder of their chosen career.

For the rest, they have to do it the hard way and work and save the required many thousands of pounds. Some are lucky enough to get financial assistance from one source or another. They will also still have mortgages in the future and the debt to still pay back, so nothing different there.

The worst thing at the moment is the wannabe being almost forced into going down one of the variations of self funded type rating schemes that are currently prevalent, this just has to be resisted. Hopefully with the upturn in the market this will soon be consigned to the bin and airlines will have to start doing their own type ratings again.

Wannabes, I don't think the 'smart arse' is called for in an adult conversation, will be pleased to fly anything and don't want to take away the opportunity of those who have been in the business longer, those who have done their apprenticeship on the turbos, flight instruction etc, not forgetting however, that many still prefer to be flight instructors (great fun I understand) or flying turboprops, we all have different goals.

However if they get offered the opportunity of flying a jet do you think they will turn it down? Would you? In fact there are still not that many opportunities anyway, lets just face it we all want to get in the air somehow.

Now the big boys are, or in some cases, rumoured to be recruiting then eventually opportunities have to trickle down to all levels of the business and who knows in a few years we may even be in the enviable position of a choice of employer!

Hi5

So they have to work for it? Who doesn't?

What do they get at the end of it? A nice comfortable, well-paid job. OK there are the few that don't, but they have a much greater chance than Joe Bloggs down at ABC Flying Club.

I don't have a problem with sponsored people. I have even gone for the odd one in my time, however, it really baffles me when there are hundreds of suitably qualified people out there with the necessary attributes who can't even get an interview.

You say that airlines like to pre-select new employees, but of the hundreds of unemployed fATPL's out there, I’m sure there is somebody for every airline from Air Atlantique to British Airways!

I think it’s excellent that BA intend to hire. Hopefully everyone will move up and those not on the ladder hopefully will step on. Maybe then, when there genuinely is a shortage of pilots, great bring out the sponsorship schemes.

Unfortunately I dont have any facts and figures to back it up, but I was under the impression that the OLD CEP scheme made money? In that as well as a partial loan repaid through salary the fact the salary was lower overall for 5 years or so would more than cover the costs of the course??

Luke Sky Toddler

I cannot understand your latest post.

Either you already have a good flying job, and are uncertain as to how you got there by virtue of the generosity of the foolish UK airlines for taking a risk by employing you..... OR

You have realised through green eyes that the airlines are unlikely to give you a job with your current experience, perhaps because of a less than perfect track record in the past or because more likely.... these jobs are hard to come by. As we all know.

That doesn't mean that other people's efforts or plain good luck should be derided on here.

This business is a circle. Never sh1t on people on the way up. You will only be shat on by them on the way down!

Don't give up:D

Studi - you are right, the chinese, japanese, hong kong, UAE and Singapore, all have politically motivated cadet-pilot schemes to get people from their own nationalities into airlines, because they have no locally based flying schools or commuter airlines to produce pilots of their own, and the local politicians find it embarrassing to have a national airline that is crewed completely 100% by expats.

The Qantas 'cadet scheme' doesn't count because it isn't a sponsorship at at all but rather a flagrant money maker, whereby the student pays for every penny of their flight training themselves at about twice the going rate of other flying schools.

You're right wheelbarrow I do have a good job with a UK airline. I got there by virtue of several thousand hours of instructing, civilian and military cadets, VFR and IFR air taxi and air ambulance before I even got anywhere near the smallish turboprop I fly now. That is in fact how the system works, in just about all the rest of the world.

I don't mind admitting there is an element of green eye here though, I just feel there is something not right when four different people that I carried out first-solo checks on and trained for PPLs, are now wearing a BA uniform and earning twice what I do. I do find it kind of bizarre.

Anyway this pro-anti cadet thing could go on forever, bottom line is there is no BA cadet scheme and there isn't going to be one for a long time.

Back to the topic at hand which is BA Direct Entry ...

Could one of you wise ones enlighten me as to who is this 'Carmen' you keep referring to and why she is so unpopular?

Luke SkyToddler your not getting bitter and twisted are you because your smallish turbo prop dosn't have a bog fitted ;)

MJ

Luke and Tom,

What an arrogant, chip on your shoulder attitude to come from people who, as pilots and having had to struggle, surely would be the best to see the need for a little bit of help for many who would want to enter the industry, but otherwise would not have the means to do so, having not had a licence 'handed on a big silver plate to them' by mummy and daddy who may not understand that they have selected themselves and therefore not even passed an airline aptitude test, or the friendly bank manager.

Quite frankly, your attitude that pilots should have to do every step through the hoop of turboprop, commuter, instruction assumes (1) that everyone wants to do that sort of flying - which some will love and some will not, and (2) that entry to all those options is available, which it plainly is not. You are talking about many people who might have neither time nor energy perhaps due to age or family commitments who are unable to step through all these hoops and to realise their dream, and therefore need such a helping hand.

Just because you are a creature of envy, there is no need to display such poor sportsmanship to those who did get it - and don't tell me that you didn't apply.

Would you also remove paid training for military pilots who don't pay a penny of their military training, simply beacause they are getting in more powerful aircraft at an earlier stage? Or would you have them shovel crap for a couple of years to pay back for them getting something better than you.

Your attitude is both offensive and patronising - you should be campaigning to remove the requirement to have to pay for any professional training, just as in any other reasonable profession, instead of having people rip us off simply because we love it.

With your attitude you would not be getting a job with me as an interviewer, simply because of the antipathy you would cause among many a diverse pilot community, with many different backgrounds from both self-sponsored to fully sponsored. I suppose you are someone who thinks that you can simply rock up with a licence and be qualified for the job, without regard for how you might gel with staff, attitude to company goals and perhaps a greater aptitude that is required for some operations, such as North Sea for example? Get a life.

Rant off.

BA DEP then anyone? Back to topic?

Carmen is a bidding system in operation at EOG.

I too think the old style full sponsorships squewed things a bit too far.

Many airlines had pretty random recruiting practices. Producing a heck of a spectrum of results. I've seen 12 on a course who covered the entire spectrum of both personality and aptitude. One wonders if 12 names weren't plucked out of a hat at times...

A better system, on balance, might be a CTC style cadet one.

Whereby Joe Wannabe has to rock up at CTC with a clutch of good school grades, a well judged haircut and maybe some demonstratable enthusiasm for flying, e.g. a PPL, Air Cadets, Gliding. He then has to convince some professional recruiters (not some line pilots who've been on a 2 day 'course' plus some HR bint) to take him on.

He then enters a highly competitive pool of cadets, who are funding their training through loans arranged by CTC - ones that you couldn't get. The risk is all the cadets and they risk being chopped back into the free market.

The ones who make it now have to compete in a beauty parade before a host of airlines who can pick and choose from a pool of pre-selected and graded cadets.

Said cadets join the airline that liked the cut of their gib on the 6 months fly for expenses deal. Only after that are they taken on.

This system, places more commitment and effort on the shoulders of the cadet, reduces the risk to the airline, professionalizes the selection and evaluation process and levels the playing field somewhat from being good at 3 days of selection to being good throughout 18 months of training.

I think this is already the way things are headed, wish I'd thought of it before CTC. Be a lot richer than being a pilot. ;)

Cheers

WWW

Hello all,

I am one of the "smart arses" who is referred to in this post - I was lucky enough to be sponsored.

I wont respond to the posts written by Luke and Tom, except to say thank goodness I don't have to share a flight deck with you very, very angry young men.

I think the fact that BA and Virgin are recruiting is great news for the industry after the past few years. Good luck to anyone applying. Any movement in the job market means more guys starting out to replace those moving, which can only be a good thing for wannabies.

Good luck all.

Mary

Of course I didn't apply for sponsorships Lucifer - I'm from New Zealand, where there is no such thing as sponsorships, or an air force for that matter.

However I do firmly believe that I might have been quite a good rock star in my youth, and I feel a bit bitter because no record company would pay for my guitar lessons and guarantee me a superstar record deal when I learned to play :rolleyes:

And as for my mate from down the pub who wanted to drop out of school and be a professional footballer, well he definitely got a raw deal, because inconsiderate bloody Manchester United wouldn't let him join their development squad when he asked. They didn't even reply to his letters the rude b@stards :{

Turns out that you actually have to have a skill and *shock horror* even some experience before you can apply for a job, in most professions in this world. Especially cool jobs like "airline pilot" that thousands of little kids dream about doing when they grow up, and the supply of already-qualified-but-inexperienced wannabes outstrips demand by about 6973000000000 to 1.

And let me just make it clear in case you were wondering, that I find this idea you're pushing, that not having sponsorships means that worthy people are somehow being denied their chance ... it is bizarre verging on ridiculous. The world definitely does NOT owe you a chance to be a pilot just because you're from some underprivileged background and think you might be good at it. If you want it bad enough you'll find a way to get there, I'm living proof of that. And I tell you what I may already be halfway there but I am still plenty hungry for more.

THAT is why I get arsey when I hear people with 200 hours talking about jet jobs like it's their god given right.

However, I do take on board your veiled threat not to employ me when you're an interviewer, and I humbly apologize for any offense caused. :ok:

In fact, tell you what, I'll race you to a chief pilot's position, and whoever doesn't get there first has to admit defeat and work as the other guy's Mercedes washer forever :p

...and turning down a sponsorship is the way to do that is it?

Let's be honest, in an ideal world the industry would have a nice structured entry system for wannabe pilots (like most other professions!). Lots of openings for low houred pilots were they could earn their spurs and progress through the ranks to get to the jet job they are after. We do however live in the real world and that's just not the way it is. Even if wannabes did want to take the route you seem to think we should all follow, I'm afraid there are not many oppertunities to get onto the bottom rung. So when the oppertunity 'does' comes along to (as long as you work your b*lls off) gain that coverted jet job, people should not be chastised for grabbing it with both hands and never letting go!

Unbelievable, in the extreme. Some potentially fantastic news comes along and certain individuals have to start throwing their toys out of the pram about a totally different subject.

LST, if the world owes you nothing, then what is your problem. Nobody is owed a place on a cadetship, they earn it. Full stop. End of argument. If you watched as your students went and earned their place, why did you not? I was under the impression that the requirment to apply for the cadetship was to have the right to live and work in the UK. You obviously have that as you say you currently work for a UK airline.?.

Back to what was being discussed.:ugh:

I was wondering if anyone had any views as to how a recruitment drive of 150 per year would impact the current market from top to bottom?

Can't remember from the fleet predictions whether the A321's are to replace the older 757's or in addition. The long term plan is definitely to be an all airbus SH/MH operation, we just can't find anyone to take all our old 757/67's off our hands. Rod is all in favour of fleet rationalisation and would get swap of all the -400's for 777's if he could.

Not sure where WWW is getting his info but the T & C's for new joiners are by far the best they have ever been. The great differences in variable pay due to seniority, that used to exist, have become a thing of the past. Bidline is still the same bidline, they have been no changes. (LGW is on Carmen but there is no recruitment to LGW planned and once the 'bus goes to LGW they should get bidline as well).

Bidline is a system where the company produces a series of rosters that cover a whole month. These are known as trip lines. Pilots get to bid for the trip line of choice. You will get that trip line unless a more senior pilot has bid for it. To give the system a bit of flexibilty there are less trip lines produced than pilots, this difference is made up with BLIND lines. These are basically made up of all the trips that got left over in the initial bid process. As a new pilot you will get blind lines each month. Don't panic, you still get to put in a preference bid for your days off and trip destinations. Once your final roster is produced thats it. It won't and can't be changed. It is 100% roster stability. If you are new to the company then you won't to bid for anything other than a blind line in any case because the bidline system is so complicated you won't have a clue what is going on. The bidline rules come in a manual that is thicker than any flying manual (I'm not joking).

Bottom line is that on the 'bus you will mostly get tours around Europe with 14 days off a month. 777 you will be doing US East coast trips all year with Mid East trips during the summer. Nobody is junior for very long, although it may not seem this way at the time!

An ideal scenario would be that BA recruits Luke Sky Todler on one of their shiny jets - So he'd stop whinging for a bit ;) :E

SF

Justbelowcap,

Thanks for the info and explanation of bidline. I just wanted to ask what the take home pay ( approximately ) is after allowances of a fairly junior SH/LH F.O.

Thanks.

Groover,

For a 3 year old FO, the take home on a short haul fleet is anything from £2600-£3200 for a full month (ie, no leave), depending on how hard you work. LGW is now on the same pay as LHR, the only difference is the rostering system. If anything, LGW pilots may earn more than our LHR colleagues, although we do work harder!

Cheers...

Mary