BA DEP rumour
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BA DEP rumour
Well well this IS interesting ...
I have just been informed by a certain secret wannabe agent that I know, who operates deep within the bowels of BA recruitment department, that they have observed the preparation of a full page splash ad for publication in Flight International within "the next several weeks", inviting renewed applications for the British Airways Direct Entry Pilot scheme.
The words "type rated" and "2500 hours TT" were also overheard, and the numbers being bandied around are between 200 and 300 pilots required before the end of the year, for just about all the fleets, with probably another 3 to 4 hundred in 2005.
Hold onto your hats people, good times are heading back in a BIG way
I have just been informed by a certain secret wannabe agent that I know, who operates deep within the bowels of BA recruitment department, that they have observed the preparation of a full page splash ad for publication in Flight International within "the next several weeks", inviting renewed applications for the British Airways Direct Entry Pilot scheme.
The words "type rated" and "2500 hours TT" were also overheard, and the numbers being bandied around are between 200 and 300 pilots required before the end of the year, for just about all the fleets, with probably another 3 to 4 hundred in 2005.
Hold onto your hats people, good times are heading back in a BIG way
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If this is true, I can see that the likes of EJ/FR will be trembling in their boots. I bet they are full of folk just waiting for this oportunity.
The Cutthroat Business School of management that requires savings to made by eroding the crews T's & C's instead of looking at their own excesses is going to come back and haunt them. Watch out for lots of delays and cancellations with the LCC's and IT operators this summer if BA make their move. In fact, it could be a brilliant plan by BA just to show what a large operator with enough fat can do to undermine those LCC's that have been taking pokes at it for so long.
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Be very good if this happens, fingers crossed
Goodbye TRSS, Goodbye you need a type rating, Goodbye we will give you a job if you buy your own type rating, Goodbye CTC, Goodbye................ etc etc etc.
May the good times return and rebalance the whole aviation job market.
Goodbye TRSS, Goodbye you need a type rating, Goodbye we will give you a job if you buy your own type rating, Goodbye CTC, Goodbye................ etc etc etc.
May the good times return and rebalance the whole aviation job market.
Last edited by STATLER; 13th Apr 2004 at 15:43.
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I think a few of the IT operators could find themselves struggling to crew their fleets this summer too if BA start to draw in experienced pilots.
And also their starting package aint what it used to be is it? I am not so sure that 'experienced' guys who are several steps up the charter pay scales would much fancy a drop in terms and conditions with a very long time to command. I dunno though, maybe I'm wrong. Just my thoughts.
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I heard the same rumour...
and you know the rule, if you hear the same rumour from three different sources then it must be true!
Good news all round if it happens. This will allow a few more to jump up a rung on the career ladder... Hopefully leaving the bottom rung free for me!
and you know the rule, if you hear the same rumour from three different sources then it must be true!
Good news all round if it happens. This will allow a few more to jump up a rung on the career ladder... Hopefully leaving the bottom rung free for me!
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I caught the guy from BA at the FLYER show. The exact number is not publicly known - but I get the feeling it is 100-200 not more.
The story goes that BA is looking mostly for 747 and 777 pilots due to retirements. The problem it has is that most of its existing pilots are frozen out from changing type because many/most of them have changed type in the last few years, and company rules bar another change. Furthermore, there are no other UK 777 operators, and not many 747 operators. It is therefore going hunting at Virgin and Emirates (not low houred wannabees). Frankly it is going to struggle.
Virgin is already recruiting, and not many people leave.
Easyjet needs 300 pilots to fill the 22 new planes (plus leavers and retirees) this year, or more if many leave to BA/Virgin (I reckon nearer 400). This number will be repeated next year.
Put it together and you should have a real shortage coming at the end of this year. But I dont see them panicking and coming directly to the wannabee market yet. Did one person get a call after the Bournemouth roadshow? No, they were hunting for EAAC pilots.
BTW BMIbaby has taken people out of the Astraeaus type rating course. So it still looks like you have to pay for a TR, or else be with CTC, to get a job.
The story goes that BA is looking mostly for 747 and 777 pilots due to retirements. The problem it has is that most of its existing pilots are frozen out from changing type because many/most of them have changed type in the last few years, and company rules bar another change. Furthermore, there are no other UK 777 operators, and not many 747 operators. It is therefore going hunting at Virgin and Emirates (not low houred wannabees). Frankly it is going to struggle.
Virgin is already recruiting, and not many people leave.
Easyjet needs 300 pilots to fill the 22 new planes (plus leavers and retirees) this year, or more if many leave to BA/Virgin (I reckon nearer 400). This number will be repeated next year.
Put it together and you should have a real shortage coming at the end of this year. But I dont see them panicking and coming directly to the wannabee market yet. Did one person get a call after the Bournemouth roadshow? No, they were hunting for EAAC pilots.
BTW BMIbaby has taken people out of the Astraeaus type rating course. So it still looks like you have to pay for a TR, or else be with CTC, to get a job.
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I heard 80 pilots required for the 777 fleet alone ... and show me anyone with THAT type rating who's looking for a job at the moment? Same goes for the 744.
They'll obviously have to lay on type ratings for the majority of people that go onto those fleets at least.
The interesting thing will be the LCCs, whether captains are willing to jump ship and join the bottom of the BA seniority list, and a lot of the FOs will have a dilemma as well, in that many of them are still shouldering the bulk of the £20 grand loan they took out to get on board with Easy / Ryan / Excel / BMIbaby / Astraeus ... are they willing and able to jump ship, knowing that they'll still be paying off that type rating for years to come and they'll probably get a command in 3 years with their existing LCC as opposed to 10-15 with BA.
I would imagine that regardless of their seniority, most of Mytravel will have a CV in pretty quickly, none of those people can be feeling too secure in their jobs after recent events.
They'll obviously have to lay on type ratings for the majority of people that go onto those fleets at least.
The interesting thing will be the LCCs, whether captains are willing to jump ship and join the bottom of the BA seniority list, and a lot of the FOs will have a dilemma as well, in that many of them are still shouldering the bulk of the £20 grand loan they took out to get on board with Easy / Ryan / Excel / BMIbaby / Astraeus ... are they willing and able to jump ship, knowing that they'll still be paying off that type rating for years to come and they'll probably get a command in 3 years with their existing LCC as opposed to 10-15 with BA.
I would imagine that regardless of their seniority, most of Mytravel will have a CV in pretty quickly, none of those people can be feeling too secure in their jobs after recent events.
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Whilst the LH Fleets will be prime poaching for BA, anyone with an A320 type rating (inc. an Orange one!) I am sure would be welcome. We are getting A321s from November, and also potentially moving A319s to LGW (different base = BA cannot just move currently rated guys there easily)...
Airbus delivery plan (a bit out of date) 6 A321 '04, 4 A321 '05 and 6 A319/320 '06 - a 25%+ increase in the fleet in 3 years.
NoD
Airbus delivery plan (a bit out of date) 6 A321 '04, 4 A321 '05 and 6 A319/320 '06 - a 25%+ increase in the fleet in 3 years.
NoD
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I know a few guys in BA shorthaul who were considering leaving recently. Clearly BA ain't what it used to be and 10-12 years to a bus command doesn't appeal widely. If they start hiring for longhaul then I'm sure they'll get a good uptake but if its for shorthaul they may be a little disappointed.
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Not sure about BA's final salary's pension scheme since nobody has been taken on since they announced the end of it.
Again like PP said, unlikely to see a large move across from the Charters to BA... When it comes to long haul, Britannia for example has increased significantly its operation and there is more to come therefore making it more interesting for those who like that kind of things.
BA is appealing to a point but it is no longer the only major player when it comes to recruitment so things might be a little tougher for them when it comes to attract experienced people.
I agree though, any recruitment is good news for everyone but remember as well that European Air Charter is in serious trouble with lots of people ready to move.... tomorrow.
The guys working for Mytravel might also want to have a look just in case, at least I would anyway.
Time to command... Well that s an issue when you are very experienced pilot and not that happy in the outfit you work for. Personnally I have a great lifestyle (not BA), varied routes (SH, MH, LH, interesting mid term contracts etc...) and money is pretty good. I may not be a typical case, although not that special really so joining BA would not bring any real improvement (apart from flying the 74/77 but frankly will it matter that much after you have been there 3 years?)
I am sure there are lots of happy guys at BA (and I would be) but can't think they are happier than me!
All this rambling to say that all of you, looking for a first job should make sure they update their file EVERYWHERE. You never know, your lucky day could just be around the corner.
Again like PP said, unlikely to see a large move across from the Charters to BA... When it comes to long haul, Britannia for example has increased significantly its operation and there is more to come therefore making it more interesting for those who like that kind of things.
BA is appealing to a point but it is no longer the only major player when it comes to recruitment so things might be a little tougher for them when it comes to attract experienced people.
I agree though, any recruitment is good news for everyone but remember as well that European Air Charter is in serious trouble with lots of people ready to move.... tomorrow.
The guys working for Mytravel might also want to have a look just in case, at least I would anyway.
Time to command... Well that s an issue when you are very experienced pilot and not that happy in the outfit you work for. Personnally I have a great lifestyle (not BA), varied routes (SH, MH, LH, interesting mid term contracts etc...) and money is pretty good. I may not be a typical case, although not that special really so joining BA would not bring any real improvement (apart from flying the 74/77 but frankly will it matter that much after you have been there 3 years?)
I am sure there are lots of happy guys at BA (and I would be) but can't think they are happier than me!
All this rambling to say that all of you, looking for a first job should make sure they update their file EVERYWHERE. You never know, your lucky day could just be around the corner.
Well I hate to rain on any Wannabes parade here but....
Anyone who joined a LCC in the last year or two is heavily bonded and won't have the jet hours required for BA. Anyone in a LCC for 3 years or so who does have the hours and may not be bonded is looking at a Command this year. Anyone who got a Command this year is going to stay put to get some hours in and is very likely busy expanding their lifestyle to suit Skippers money.
Anyone who has a few years Command experience will be in at least the top third of the pilot list if it were to come to redundancy. This a comfortable place to be whereas right on the bottom of the BA list with Bin Laden stalking Crawley is - frankly - not.
Quite a few LCC pilots are based in the regions and very likely are desperate to keep it that way.
Histotically there have always been some pilots willing to take a cut and move to the security of BA with the promise of That Pension. Personally this time I think BA offer no more security than any other airline - they were on pretty thin ice 2 years ago - and That Pension has now gone.
It will be quite some time before Ryanar stops you from buying a type rating or easyJet radically improves its TRSS.
Cheers
WWW
Anyone who joined a LCC in the last year or two is heavily bonded and won't have the jet hours required for BA. Anyone in a LCC for 3 years or so who does have the hours and may not be bonded is looking at a Command this year. Anyone who got a Command this year is going to stay put to get some hours in and is very likely busy expanding their lifestyle to suit Skippers money.
Anyone who has a few years Command experience will be in at least the top third of the pilot list if it were to come to redundancy. This a comfortable place to be whereas right on the bottom of the BA list with Bin Laden stalking Crawley is - frankly - not.
Quite a few LCC pilots are based in the regions and very likely are desperate to keep it that way.
Histotically there have always been some pilots willing to take a cut and move to the security of BA with the promise of That Pension. Personally this time I think BA offer no more security than any other airline - they were on pretty thin ice 2 years ago - and That Pension has now gone.
It will be quite some time before Ryanar stops you from buying a type rating or easyJet radically improves its TRSS.
Cheers
WWW
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Hello all,
These figures were correct as of two weeks ago when I had my SEP renewal. As all of those BA people know, we are now required to sit through a post lunch management forum. Sounds ok, but it is more often than not hosted by the monkeys and not the organ grinders.
Anyway this is what we were told:
Approx 150 DEP's this year, starting around September (I think, but can't remember exactly).
BA still unsure of numbers for subsequent years.
DEP's being recruited onto most fleets, including short haul. This is in order to allow those SFO's with valid bids to transfer onto 400/777.
Expect muchos outcry if all DEP's go long haul, resulting in SFO's being held short haul for longer than their freeze. A potentially troublesome situation for the powers that be to (mis) manage?
As I say, this was two weeks ago, so the policy could have done a complete 180 in that time!
Ta very much...
Mary
These figures were correct as of two weeks ago when I had my SEP renewal. As all of those BA people know, we are now required to sit through a post lunch management forum. Sounds ok, but it is more often than not hosted by the monkeys and not the organ grinders.
Anyway this is what we were told:
Approx 150 DEP's this year, starting around September (I think, but can't remember exactly).
BA still unsure of numbers for subsequent years.
DEP's being recruited onto most fleets, including short haul. This is in order to allow those SFO's with valid bids to transfer onto 400/777.
Expect muchos outcry if all DEP's go long haul, resulting in SFO's being held short haul for longer than their freeze. A potentially troublesome situation for the powers that be to (mis) manage?
As I say, this was two weeks ago, so the policy could have done a complete 180 in that time!
Ta very much...
Mary
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Pretty certain that 150 DEP's to start end Summer04. DEP's can only go to LH once all the SH guys who want to go to LH have moved. The EXCEPTION to this are the guys who have done less than 5 years in the company because they are not fully part of the internal bidding system, their bids are frozen. To be honest all the guys with 5 years under their belt that wanted to go to LH are already there.
That means that type rated pilots on Airbus, 777, 747 will be required in big numbers as we are short on all fleets.
The pay is as good as it has ever been and for those at the bottom of the seniority list it is by far the best it has ever been. All fleets work very hard these days but that seems to be industry wide.
Pension...this is still under negotiation but BALPA have promised a strike ballot if a FSS pension is not offered to new joiners. It is looking likely that the accural rates may be increased to help offset the problem that NAPS has at the moment. But you will have the chance to work past 55 so it's not all doom and gloom. Put your money on FSS pension paid at 56ths (as opposed to 52nds)
Command times..well you will have to do your time in the trenches. Nobody joining today (but things always change in this biz) will get a command for at least 12-14 years. LH commands will probably never be an option to those joining unless they are well below 30. You need to be in the top 1200 to get a LH command and BA has about that amount below 30 already working for them.
Another bad point is that BA can do what it likes with you for the first 5 years. That's the rules. We have plenty of pilots who were recruited to fly 777/747 (actually written on their contracts) only to be told this had changed the day they entered Cranebank. BA couldn't really give a stuff about your old type rating once you start and this makes very little difference to the training that you will do. (In lots of ways it is easier to train guys who aren't type rated but thats for another thread.) The reason they want type rated guys is that this means people aren't joining just to get a type rating, remeber there is no bond with BA. So thats something worth baring in mind, you join the airline not a specific fleet. You have been warned.
Good luck to all those that apply.
That means that type rated pilots on Airbus, 777, 747 will be required in big numbers as we are short on all fleets.
The pay is as good as it has ever been and for those at the bottom of the seniority list it is by far the best it has ever been. All fleets work very hard these days but that seems to be industry wide.
Pension...this is still under negotiation but BALPA have promised a strike ballot if a FSS pension is not offered to new joiners. It is looking likely that the accural rates may be increased to help offset the problem that NAPS has at the moment. But you will have the chance to work past 55 so it's not all doom and gloom. Put your money on FSS pension paid at 56ths (as opposed to 52nds)
Command times..well you will have to do your time in the trenches. Nobody joining today (but things always change in this biz) will get a command for at least 12-14 years. LH commands will probably never be an option to those joining unless they are well below 30. You need to be in the top 1200 to get a LH command and BA has about that amount below 30 already working for them.
Another bad point is that BA can do what it likes with you for the first 5 years. That's the rules. We have plenty of pilots who were recruited to fly 777/747 (actually written on their contracts) only to be told this had changed the day they entered Cranebank. BA couldn't really give a stuff about your old type rating once you start and this makes very little difference to the training that you will do. (In lots of ways it is easier to train guys who aren't type rated but thats for another thread.) The reason they want type rated guys is that this means people aren't joining just to get a type rating, remeber there is no bond with BA. So thats something worth baring in mind, you join the airline not a specific fleet. You have been warned.
Good luck to all those that apply.
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Hello Everyone,
This news does sound very positive!
I'm quite new to PPRuNe; I'm a Canadian commuter pilot and am just starting to look at converting my licence to JAA ATPL. I have Swiss citizenship so I'm fairly sure I have (at least) the right to work in the UK.
I wanted to get a jump on getting an application in to BA, and was just on their jobs website. Is there any way to fill out an application (other than an expression of interest) when there are no pilot vacancies posted? Any info would be greatly appreciated.
Cheers!
This news does sound very positive!
I'm quite new to PPRuNe; I'm a Canadian commuter pilot and am just starting to look at converting my licence to JAA ATPL. I have Swiss citizenship so I'm fairly sure I have (at least) the right to work in the UK.
I wanted to get a jump on getting an application in to BA, and was just on their jobs website. Is there any way to fill out an application (other than an expression of interest) when there are no pilot vacancies posted? Any info would be greatly appreciated.
Cheers!
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Surely all this jumping ship costs airlines more in retraining, unstablility etc than the initial savings of making people pay for everything with pants t & c's and a lack of loyalty!
I'm sure a happy work force is more productive and the sooner the bean counters lose the lever, all airlines should reep all the benefits
I'm sure a happy work force is more productive and the sooner the bean counters lose the lever, all airlines should reep all the benefits