It’s not going to be resolved short term because these politicians don’t know or handle the pandemic In The one hand and looking at commercial knock on effects on the other. Holding a uk license one time was envy of the world but now no advantages in having it whatsoever..

MPPCAG

EASA licence is required to operate aircraft registered in EASA member states. UK can't mandate that aircraft based in the UK be G-registered and operated on UK AOC for UK-EU routes, as that would be a violation of the traffic rights defined in the UK-EU TCA.

Just as British AOC holders can base G-regs in the EU (that will require a UK licence from 2023 onwards), similarly EASA AOC holders can base EU-regs in the UK.

Hmmmmm! Are you sure?

Yes. G-regs based in the EU are still possible, albeit they are only limited to UK routes (vice versa for EU-reg in UK). I believe Jet2 are doing this with their Spanish bases?

So that will require a pilot having the right to work/live in EU presumably EU citizen, operating on G reg aircraft on a UK ATPL. Is that correct?

Douglas Bahada

Correct.

FlyingStone

That's all fair enough Flying Stone. I think you missed my point. ! was saying that a UK licence should be acceptable. A simple solution is to get an EASA licence of course but it's a pretty long wait now wherever you apply due to a huge backlog of applications (for obvious reasons). If I'm excluded from employment opportunities elsewhere in Europe due to Brexit, so be it but I don't expect it in my home country.

To be fair, EASA has softened its stance a lot since January and it is extremely easy to get an EASA license for UK pilots, especially if compared to all others in the same boat (third country nationals). There is still the need to be able to live and work in the UK for those outfits, or for UK airlines basing in the EU to be able to live and work in each country (there is no EU work permit) where they have bases.

https://www.flyer.co.uk/uk-to-leave-easa-says-shapps/

Short memory bring troubles...

CAA Board Minutes January 2020
These minutes (Para 11) suggest that the CAA were becoming aware that the Government was likely to U turn on EASA membership in January 2020, just after Johnson won (lied his way to) a huge majority in the December election. As far as I am aware, the CAA didn't change their advice on their microsite so they never suggested that there was any advantage to be had by transferring to an EASA licence or no hint that there would be limitations for UK licence holders (except in the unlikely event of a no deal). We then spent the summer on tenterhooks whilst the people who claimed they held all the cards played a crude game of brinkmanship. Trying to choose the best licencing pathway would have been little more than guesswork, particularly for those in training or out of work.

The CAA could have been more proactive in updating their advice options but they would not have necessarily known which way the traffic rights were going to go in the final Dec 24th CTA. The draft Air Service Agreement negotiating document had been released by the Government over a year prior to this and in this document, there was a clause relating to social issues and not discrimination against or advantaging one group of workers over others. So, it was reasonable to assume that the people who held all the cards would have negotiated this into the final agreement. If not, why not?

Alas, it appears that we didn't hold all the cards after all. As it turned out, we got the bare bones - keep the planes flying deal and UK pilots were well and truly shafted. The CAA could have done more, but in the final few months of Brexit negotiation stand offs, they would have been punished by the Government and the RW press if they had dared to commit Brexit heresy and told the truth by suggested that pilots might be well advised to get themselves an EU licence ASAP.


"Wot! British pilots need a foreign European licence to work in their own country..:= That's not what we voted for, we didn't win two world............."

Johnson, Shapps and the ERG crazies have well and truly stitched up the UK pilots but the probably don't care one jot.

@Denti

How so? Is there a post Brexit SOLI process that doesn't entail resitting EASA theory exams and the CPL?

Also interested in the details of this...

EASA has no choice in the matter. They would've been sued. It's like your foreign institution SUDDENLY deciding your diploma is worthless because you did it in a country that no longer has diplomatic relations with theirs. Simply stupid. The course material and exams were all EASA standard when we did them.
All member states have received a notice that they have to accept exams done in the UK. You have to ask the UK CAA to verify that information (pay £46 as usual). The accepting authority then sends an email which forms the basis of issuing your new EASA license.

Eagle has hit the nail on the head. It appears that it is the UK that has decided to disadvantage its own citizens in many cases, whether deliberately or through incompetence. I know which I believe to be the case.

It is interesting that a "large swathe of TREs" voted Brexit, although the intention to leave EASA was never revealed during the vote, I cannot understand why someone with that level of insight into the airline industry would vote for a process that would hinder international trade and want to damage the profitability of his/her company. If these TREs are at a scheduled carrier, what would be the point of harming a business that earns it's living flying Europeans around Europe?

If this really is the case, I'm not sure being a TRE necessarily qualifies an individual as being politically astute.

The point is, why would a pilot with any interest at all in friction free travel for passengers within Europe and tariff free freight transit across State borders think it would be a good idea to torpedo the business model. As James O'Brien of LBC fame puts it, it has been the greatest act of self harm in modern political history. Whether a pilot is a TRE or not, the implications should have been pretty obvious.

and what is wrong with foreign pilots? I have flown with great Dutch, German, French, Belgium, Polish pilots who seem to know what they are doing, but I wasn't actually referring to the flight deck alone, more to the industry itself..

It was the introduction of the EASA FTL’s that annoyed a lot of British based pilots just prior to the Brexit vote. You can see how telling British pilots that you can now increase your max working hours as it will mean another European country you have no connection with will now have safer limits is not exactly going to win Europe much sympathy with British pilots. This nearly swung my vote but thought either way UK will get shafted but better to be in than out.

Talk about democracy when the FTL’s was shambolically voted through in Brussels!

So the pilots at Lufthansa, KLM, Alitalia, Air France, SAS and Iberia clearly had no idea that their FTLs were unsafe.

I know the whole EASA FTL debate annoyed a lot of people but did anybody really buy into the argument that by voting for Brexit plucky Brits working for British companies would get “good old CAP 371 back” and wouldn’t have to work those nonsense foreign FTLs….

Did anybody seriously think CEOs and the CFOs of British based airlines were going to acquiesce to that?

There is no fight back on the cards, the whole thing is perfectly legal and I doubt
any government on national or local level would step in to something that is perfectly legal. We have been using cheap European labour for years so how is this any different to use European pilots flying EU reg aircraft happened to be based here which its legal, because it is aviation? Boris and co have made it plainly clear that they don’t give two hoots about UK aviation other then scoring some manufacturing deals, I think UK pilots and there lisences are way down on the list of priorities unfortunately and it is just the way it is.

I do agree with you; it is sadly funny to see that many UK colleagues wave the discrimination/racism flag on the issue. Easier to put the head in the sand than face reality. Blame game.
The only thing left to do is to go in front of Westminster and have a straight chat with the MPs that betrayed the promises made on all fronts.
Brexit is the greatest scam of all times.
There is no return i am afraid.

wiggy

No don’t think most really thought it would go back to the original CAA FTL’s but the supposedly democratic way it was voted through the EU showed a dark side.It didn’t enhance safety within the UK and nothing could be done about it.

Maybe it showed British pilots the ugly side of the EU when we’ve been told by many it was an angelic, pure and shining light of democracy.

How about getting together and picketing. I'm not saying at number 10 but at your local MP-s or at the CAA or something. Would at least give you 20 seconds on the evening news coz i haven't seen or read anything on the issue so far in any of the major media outlets. I stand to be corrected of course. But if fishermen could put their foot down and at least got their issues to be debated about in the commons so flightcrew could get a similar result.

Frankly if anybody believed the EU was angelic pure and a shining light of democracy then it’s also not surprising they also believed the leave campaign and they really do deserve the bridge they bought.

As I remember the FTL debate the argument as much as anything was that it stopped certain operators using permissive FTLs to undercut other operators in the EU…I know in an ideal world EASA would have rushed to buy into the supposed shining light that was CAP 371 but we’re back to the world of European organizations, horse trading and negotiating again….

The ironic thing (not) is that by putting themselves outside EASA I suspect British pilots have perhaps (only IMHO) made it easier for UK based companies to migrate even further away from 371, rather than move back toward it…and given the state of the industry in the UK the CEOs/CFOs have plenty of ammunition should they wish to go down that road with the UK CAA/HMG

booze

You might get on the evening news, but the result might not be the same.

Flight crews have an image issue, they are seen as entitled, often arrogant and aloof. Whenever pilots talked about industrial action they were seen as pampered and even now I doubt that the public view will be much different.

Being "Johnny foreigner" i am not surprised about anything. Enjoy some "southern Europe" political reality.

I don't believe there is much to separate our home grown crowd of corrupt politicos from their Southern European counterparts, it's just that it is more obvious the nearer you get to the equator

You are having your share of that then.

no sponsor

B747 is currently the best rating to have. Cargolux, CLA, ASL, Air Atlanta, Silkway are all desperate for qualified 747 pilots. And at least some of them do take British UKCAA licensed pilots.

This whole Brexit saga is a effin mess. Anyone who said they didn’t see this coming did not think about possible consequences at all. Many of my British former pilot colleagues voted for Brexit, working for an EU company based in the EU commuting in from the UK. Incredible!!!

but if is any solace. I will not in a hundred years apply for a job in the UK ;)

Are the UK right to work checks being diligently carried out...?

SaulGoodman

Saw the same thing happening at my workplace...
... and now they are all complaining around. Those, that did not convert to an EASA license have been terminated (because they were believing for some last minute solution? :D )

I strongly invite everyone to consider that this is not the fault of EASA or the European Union.

The brits voted out, so the 51% that voted for Brexit should deal with this now.

Wiggy

Yes, more ancient and deep-rooted powers at play. Any change whatsoever will be used as an opportunity to reduce expenses. It's not even personal, worklife is a constant swim upstream.

UK citizens and customers, UK AOC and G- registered. Validate and welcome other countries' licences and nationals if required when appropriate, but all taxes and social dues stay home.

The largest trouble is when the rules already in place are being circumnavigated (WZZ / RYR / IAG / ME3) over an extended period of time. In the long run, the discontent between reality and legislation will be solved by adjusting the law.

The best leverage from what you actually have is making sure present-day regulations are being followed, the base is not being eroded. Brexit may have (?) brought even a few options there, as much as the easy access to EU mainland job opportunities has been lost.

UK is a massive and wealthy market. There should be enough work for UK passport holders but the goose needs attending.

Post #116 and similar. Don't export the jobs and cash if there isn't a reasonable equivalent in return, fair and friendly do go in hand.

with hartfelt wishes of best luck,

Its definitely not the fault of EASA/EU. However Brexit is also not the fault of the British pilots. British pilots that do possess both an EASA license and UKCAA license might actually have a good position in the future.

Setting up a new AOC cost a lot of time, money and effort. And as long as you are not planning to start flying within the UK you don’t need one. So these companies require an EASA license and the right to work in the UK. I don’t see how that is “discrimination” towards British pilots. There are also jobs for FAA licensed pilots with the right to live and work in the EU. Similar thing.

Such irony when you consider that partly, Brexit came about by "Johnny Foreigner taking Brit jobs" but anyone saying that was of course termed a racist.

And yet after Brexit happens the ineptitude of the British government has created precisely that senario?

I really cannot help but think how the Australians would react in such a situation? Or the French?

But in the UK we have all been conditioned to simply suck it all up! 'Such a sad country now I am afraid.

Right now things are pretty bleak for UK citizens and license holders alike, the jobs seem to all be opening up in the EU requiring EU citizenship.

I would put a lot of this down to the restrictions on UK air travel. Once these restrictions are removed and UK air travel is really allowed to takeoff again the UK job market will expand and it will be limited to UK citizens.

In future there will be a lot of UK pilot positions exclusive to UK citizens whereas previously all of Europe could apply. At least this is what I expect - there may be light at the end of the tunnel.

And vice versa.
The problem now is total reliance on the UK industry whereas a few months ago you had the entire EU industry to go at. EU pilots still have that option. UK pilots do not.

For those crowing about BREXIT and the law of unintended consequences it may be worth considering that the EU is not the bed of roses it’s advocates believe it is. The Netherlands and France have sizeable leaving minded people. Poland and Hungary have sovereignty issues with regard to EU refugee quotas. In Germany local courts have ruled that local laws trump the European count. There is talk of tax harmonisation which will pitch the affluent Northern States against the Southern states.

A320LGW

Can you get that in writing from HMG?

Look, as I’m sure you realize from my previous posts I think at best Brexit can be described as one of the most successful bait and switch operations of all time.

That said I hope for your and many other people’s sake the market recovers and pilot recruitment (both UK and EU) picks up, but I’d be highly sceptical that the people who created this mess are going to rush to ensure exclusive positions for UK citizens in the UK in any job.

Not quite correct. Irish citizens continue to have the right to work in the UK and vice versa.