First off, I must say that I am thoroughly enjoying this thread.
Something about chickens coming home to roost.

​​​Anyway, not to change the subject and all. However I would just like to point out that being British is not a race, but rather a nationally. The key here is that British subjects tend to be caucasians. Ironically the same race as that (majority population) of EASA member states.
Yes I know oh, it's all very complicated.
But I have my doubts that Easa is racially motivated.
All I can say, is that I'm happy that I SOLI out before the deadline. And to all those whinging about all this. Your time might be better spent converting over to an EASA Licence.
​

Paul Rice Most probably I'll get banned for what I'm going to say, but here it goes anyway:

As an European pilot I have been looked down by British pilots all my life. I have worked for a UK Operator and, during company induction and sitting in a class with other pilots, being thrown to the face by the instructor that I was a foreigner, and nobody said anything. And you know what? I ate my balls, decided not to play the discrimination or racial card (even though, as pointed above, we are all the same race in the UK and Europe), worked hard, studied, learnt a whole lot from the huge number of amazing aviation professionals that there are in the UK, finally getting the respect of everyone around me.

My professional life has taken me around, I have now 4 licenses, on my way to 5. All of the them involved studying ATPL, doing initial Class I medicals, and preparing for ATPL skill test, and all of them brought me a job.

I just don't recognize the moaning from your post from my time flying the UK. I can't recall anyone there being as childish and spoiled as you are showing. There is an airline offering you a job at home if you get EASA license? FFS, go and take the exams! It is not the first time I have seen a job offer in Europe, but only for FAA licenses as the airplane was N registered, so don't create a global conspiracy against British pilots where there is none.

Generally speaking, British pilots are arrogant, but goddam if they don't have enough reasons to be so with their skills and working ethics, I think you can be better than this.

Iggy you are another example of a mightier than though obnoxious little man who refuses to see that there are hundreds of British born pilots who did not vote for Brexit. They were not allowed to SOLI prior to Brexit as a condition of their employment. I was one.

This thread has become a platform for people like you to insult us. Makes you feel big I bet?

Right now, I assure you the majority of UK license holders are busy trying to obtain an EASA license again but the waiting times are horrific. Vast majority of NAAs are absolutely useless when it comes to progressing things. There is one that stands out as a shining example but they are being inundated with hundreds of applications. And no you don't need to take 14 exams!

Half the threads on here used to be about how to SOLI to EASA. I'll bet there are more Brits with EASA licences than Europeans with UK licences.

Personal opinion : Because of the opening plea/claim that somebody made that nobody could have seen this could possibly happen….followed by the claims somebody else made that the present situation was all the nasty EUs fault - The first is nonsense and the second is also nonsense straight out of the Brexiters playbook.

The Brexit decision made it much more difficult for many of those “British born”, as you put it, to live and work within the EU. As a result I and many others have already spent the last five years jumping through hoops and spending the time needed trying to protect ourselves and our family’s futures from the consequences of that vote. The process has been time consuming stressful and expensive so frankly sympathy for those that caused this is in very limited supply, certainly in this household, regardless of whether they are an airline pilot or are in some other line of work.

I do genuinely feel sorry for those in the UK caught up in this who were perhaps to young to vote or voted against, but I have zero sympathy for any of the flag waving drum banging supposed patriots now looking for my support.

If they stopped sloping shoulders and realized they need to own this then I and others might find the ability to be a bit more supportive of them…until then..

Yo CW247 wassup!

No, I'm not a little man, pretty much the opposite to my disgrace. My AME keeps telling me to drop some weight or else.

And, if you would get off your horse, you'd realize that, actually, I'm doing the opposite to insulting you guys. Read again my post, please. I think you guys can overcome any agency trying to shaft you, or any airline imposing unreasonable policies on your license. Just do exactly as the hundreds of pilots you mention in your post: apply for a shiny brand new EASA license, and show the finger to whoever got you into this mess.

Coming here in tears doesn't help, and doesn't represent the British character I've got to known, either.

And just to let you know, I'm in the middle of acquiring a license, and, one year into the process, still no license in sight. Chaos and mayhem happens every where in the world, not just in Europe.

I'm getting out of this industry. The agenda is fairly clear for those that are prepared to face up to their own cognitive dissonance and Stockholm Syndrome (as opposed to genning up on yet another HPL exam).

World Economic Forum 'Great Reset', Build Back Better bleated by major Western orientated political figures around the world in syncro, 'Net Zero' the new buzzphrase. W-patterns from outside the UK serving these isles is where I see it going, maybe some regional operators (Loganair) surviving. Cabinet model of government is in place; writing to your MP merely serves as some sort of light therapy for the confused and disenchanted. No meaningful opposition to the existential crisis our national industry faces - in fact the most destructive mismanagement choices possible (and why the silence from airline management boards?) - No effective resistence either from BALPA or any of the main political parties. BALPA censoring people found summarily guilty of wrongthink, ffs.

Yet people are so heavily invested they refuse to sit back and take the macro view. I understand this, heavily invested quite literally in some cases. But, sit back, do your FORDEC, GRADE, DODAR or whatever you need to.

Do consider that there may be an overall unpalatable agenda, which you are not being served up in mainstream media.

Falling_Penguin

I’m not sure I buy into some of the global motives or things like the Great Reset for that matter, but hard to disagree with at least some of that.

BALPA will be completely useless. Always are.

As for the CAA, they might take notice in a few years when they see most newly qualified pilots in the UK applying for EASA licences. Only when their revenue stream is affected will they do something.

I considered converting my licence to a EASA one last year, but the CAA told me at the time they couldn’t guarantee I didn’t have to do the 14 exams to get the UK one back, since at the time nothing had been decided. So I couldn’t take that chance.

At the moment I will look into jumping through the hoops to do what is necessary to get a EASA one. But I think I’ll draw a line if it means I have to do a skills test in a 747-400 sim (which of course is now a completely useless rating).

In the meantime, I guess I’ll wait until Jet2 open their recruitment.

Correct - The ECJ has intervened in only one aviation case in 38 years but this was the main reason that pilots were sacrificed to the Brexit Gods. Ideology, pure and simple. But as we keep being reminded - it's what people voted for.

As a personal perspective, I can count on one hand the number of colleagues I've met in the last 6 years or so who haven't been pro-Brexit, usually in an extreme way. Maybe I was unlucky, but it seems hard now to have sympathy despite the huge disadvantage this has caused me personally. I've already lost one job offer because of it. What a ludicrous mess, but remember as someone already mentioned : "get over it, you won".

Having been the victim of proven historical discrimination, I found two things really stood out for me during the whole experience. First - at the time, there was a strong, concerted effort to undermine the case for discrimination - this was orchestrated by those who profit from it. Don't be deterred. Second - get the names of those who reject your application based upon the discrimination, this will be useful in the legal action to follow. If not now, in the years to come.

It's only as discriminatory as US carriers requiring a FAA Licence. I don't see any reason why European airlines should be made to do extra work to accommodate people from a country that has decided to give itself a collective knee to the groin.

Falling Penguin

Excellent post. However, many will refuse to see/believe/ accept what is really going on in the world right now. When it is openly said in the Word Economic Forum that we will all have less and we will be happier for it, it amazes me that people don’t catch on. Only the elite will be exempt from the rules, allowed to thrive and rule. The rest of us will just have to be content to survive, not thrive

I am astonished at the level of vitriol and venom spouted here against those who voted for Brexit (actually not me if you are interested although it was close) . They include ‘morons’, ‘tits’, ‘arrogant’, ‘sinking in your own :mad:’. Basically you should be embarrassed and ashamed of yourselves; hard to believe that you hold atpl’s or have the intelligence for aeronautical decision making and mature, responsible behaviour. It is probably an internet thing; cowardly attacks from behind a keyboard. And by the way, a special mention for the poster that claimed that a brexiteer was a ‘tit’ , I think I work for the same airline as you. If so, I can tell you that a large swathe of TREs and training managers voted for Brexit. Feel free to call them a tit to their face when you turn up your LPC. No? I didn’t think so. We live in a democratic society and the vote was for Brexit so live with it. Back to the post. Leaving EASA was a mistake. In this thread it has been conflated with leaving the EU. They are not the same. The resultant Alice in Wonderland scenario is that on Dec31 a B737 pilot could fly an EI (other EASA states are available) B737 but not on Jan1. No matter how many hours on type or training qualifications. The fact that the U.K. CAA are allowing European EASA licence holders to continue flying on G registered airlines and with no reciprocity is quite obviously unfair and laced with political spite and opportunism. Hopefully common sense will return and mutual recognition of equivalent qualifications will be reinstated. I flew with many Europeans in various British airlines and I was delighted to do so. Please dial down the anger and insults, it is embarrassing on a supposed professional forum.

The Joint Aviation Authorities (JAA) was established in 1970 to apply joint certification standards for all European Civil Aviation Conference (ECAC) countries. It drew upon a lot of UK expertise, it was strongly supported by the UK and was a great step forward:-
https://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/JAA

EASA, established in 2002, included the JAA and added more regulatory functions. It was created by the EU with widespread industry support:-
https://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/...y_Agency_(EASA)

When the UK decided to leave the EU it could have remained a member of EASA but, instead, for foolish ideological reasons, the government decided to leave despite being offered the option (like Switzerland) of continued membership. This was against strong industry advice:-
https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-n...easa-departure

Those who voted for Brexit and those who have supported the current Conservative party have only themselves to blame for the current problems now facing, not only British pilots, but the whole UK aviation industry:-
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-51783580

I now live in France (therefore many will say I am bound to be biased) but, viewing my country from afar, I am greatly saddened by what I see happening and even more so for those younger pilots who will now have their careers adversly affected, a problem that has been foisted upon them by those who have supported the current government.

olster

No thanks, I have no interests in mutual recognition between EASA and the UK CAA. Not a single advantage on my side.

Trying to play the discrimination card on the request of EASA licenses (not EU citizenship, just a license) is laughable, even more the empty threat of "repercussions".

olster

I totally agree with you. But you must also recognise that, if you legitimate somebody to give you a straight kick in the balls, then you cannot complain about the pain it causes. That is exactly what happened with Brexit. Everything was largely predictable. Not only in the aviation business.
Now you have to play with your broken toy, that you've bought with your own will.
There is no common sense in politics. Look at bojo agenda and deal with that.
I feel sorry for the many ex colleagues that are suffering due to this, but i feel no simpathy for those who voted out. They wanted it.
About LPC stuff, politics should stay outside the sim.

Agree with most of that. I think the causal factor behind even the most successful and professional people voting for brexit is the insidious British exceptionalism which has been instilled in anyone born (probably) before the mid 90’s, pretty much from birth. It’s so deeply engrained that mistrust of foreign institutions is an autonomous reflex. The fact that EASAland had seen a heavy influx of CAA brains doesn’t even matter, if it ain’t in Britain it ain’t trustworthy.

Sadly we are in a mess of our own making, so I can fully understand and sympathise with those others at their wits end who feel compelled to use derogatory remarks. It’s time to be pragmatic however you voted, but please stop continuing to try to load the blame on the EU/EASA - it’s tiresome nonsense and only serves to nullify your argument/agenda.

Spot on. Go on linkedin and have fun then.
Nonsense anti EU posts all around.

Greetings Giuff! Thanks for broadly supporting my view. Without giving too much away and to clarify: I am a TRE with a well known uk airline. Just to clarify: I would never be anything other than fair to a candidate / trainee in the LPC scenario regardless of political views etc.It’s called professionalism. In the same vein I do not call colleagues tits for their political opinions either behind their backs via the internet or to their faces. Cheers.

olster

i've never called anyone tit in my former UK Company. And i would never do that now.
In my former UK Company TREs were awesome.
Those times are sadly gone.
I would have loved to continue with my career on the other side of the Channel; things went another way.
Not my fault, neither yours.
Fair play.

Just out of curiosity, do you guys have a UK CAA license or know someone that is doing the UK CAA licence?

myuseraccount

So the UK could have remained EASA...!
I didn´t know that!
Well done for leaving!
That was a great idea!

The vitriol on here is off the scale. Many of my colleagues hold EASA licences and commute into the UK to fly G reg aircraft. They have just 16 months to apply for a UK License to continue flying our G reg aircraft. The don’t have to give up their EASA licences. Many of them are awaiting transfers to continental Europe. To a person they are no better or worse at operating. However most are bilingual or trilingual and thus l consider them a more “ rounded” product than l am. My biggest regret is not learning a certain European language when living there.

The biggest threat to UK jobs is The PM and his bizarre travel restrictions. My airline will only survive because the UK AOC is being carried by our Europe operation. This summer is heading for disaster because this UK Government are making travel deliberately complex with a view to getting the proles spending in country. This is not a health issue anymore it is political.

For the sake of semantics on the thread title, it’s not a fight back at all is it? U.K. aviation professionals, not just pilots, are being shafted by this Vote Leave government for the sake of ideology.

You can say “I told you so” until blue in the face, but this doesn’t exactly make it any better does it? I didn’t vote for it, but it is amazing how many of said aviation professionals voted for Brexit despite such warnings. And we all suffer as a result.

As for perpetual travel restrictions being the biggest threat, I can’t agree more. The U.K. I saw was only at 16% of previous 2019 levels whereas big swathes of Europe are well above 50%. Even Eurocontrol are saying that the last month was about the best case scenario for them.. but hey, vaccines vaccines vaccines… EMA bad!

I do absolutely agree with both you and Douglas..that’s where the problem now lies. There’s a fairly compelling reason for at least one person in this household to fly to the Uk but it’s not worth the risk of being caught out by a sudden, no notice change, from “Amber whatever it is today” to a brand new “purple with two stars” category.

The whole issue of the CAAs relationship with EASA, the EU licenses etc is to a great extent irrelevant ATM but makes for a handy distraction from the massive problems for the UK aviation industry that are being generated closer to home.

You are absolutely right

myuseraccount, could you reference the statement "EASA offered membership to the UK without voting rights but with ECJ jurisdiction for disputes ( like Switzerland / Iceland / Liechtenstein ) but refused", please? It is the opposite of what I was told.

Are British pilots not able to get an EASA license? As I understand it, they can, so I don't see who's being discriminated against.

And if they don't want to, they have the sovereignty to enjoy instead.

I am afraid I have come to the unavoidable conclusion that this UK left wing tory government are quite deliberately doing everything they can to change the demographics of the country

Right at the beginning of the Brexit negotiations the UK announced that every EU citizen in UK could stay. This, without any request for reciprication? I was one of one and a half million Brits living in EU land with complete uncertainty for 4 years not knowing where our futures lie? Even now it was left to individual nations to decide what to accept.

Why would a UK government continueously put the interests of foreigners above the interests of their own nationals?

And now they have done it again. Other EASA issued licences permitted to operate G reg without a reciprical arrangement? It has to be deliberate?

I say that as it cannot be possible that our peers are that that stupid and useless? Or?

So after living in the EU you still did not understand the concept of sovereignty of each member state?

I think Kelly Hopper has stumbled into the wrong thread. 😁
As for EASA membership, I still have my letter from the Minister in charge at the time (name escapes me as it was about four years ago) reassuring me that it is the UK government's intention to remain in EASA. Rees-Mogg and the rest of the hard line EU haters scuppered that when they rejected any authority from the ECJ. 🙄

It was the intention of the government right up until April last year to remain in EASA and this position was supported by the CAA and industry. This position on EASA remained for nearly a year through the Johnson premiership and after Johnson appointed Shapps as Transport Sec. It wasn't until April last year that Shapps let slip that the UK would leave EASA. So why the sudden change in position when it was OK for Johnson and Shapps prior to this point? I think it is purely down to the snap election victory giving Johnson and his masters in the ERG the green light to do whatever they wanted no matter what the damage under the cover of more "will of the people". Full throttle ideological hard Brexit.
Because they have become very clever at running government through focus groups and Twitter, Shapps has never actually been put on the spot and explain his decisions. All we have had is a corny line from a DfT spokeswoman - remaining in EASA is not compatible with the UK having genuine economic and political independence. Which means Baker, Mogg, Francois etc just cannot bear the ECJ being involved in anything and as a result, we will all have to suffer.

The great Brexit irony is that we now have to comply with far more EU laws than we did when we were in the EU.

It was always their intent to remain in EASA *provided* that we could do so without having the ECtJ as the ultimate arbiter, because the whole Brexit Mendocracy was rooted in the idea than we couldn't have some grubby-little johnny foreigner having jurisdiction over anything to do with decent British folk. This was bolstered with all the blather about the ECtJ always ruling against Britain (which was utterly unfounded, but what's one more lie amongst so many). I expect they assumed that they'd be able to demand membership with our own jurisdiction, but like so many things they promised it turns out that the EU had a different view, and they held all the cards. So they then had to drop the idea of staying in EASA.

Again, the founder members of the so-called "project Fear" warned extensively and in detail both before and after the referendum, but sadly we were jeered at. So people are now lying in the bed they made.

Well said FDR 1.

Let's also not forget that the decision to leave EASA was probably made in the first quarter of last year, just as we were entering the first Covid wave and first lockdown when all hell was breaking loose and it was already becoming apparent that a quarter of UK pilot jobs were at risk. The ERG crazies saw a smoke-screen and just went for it. Hardest possible damaging Brexit was all they were after and the CAA and DfT were well aware that this licencing problem would arise but did nothing.

If current trends continue and more and more UK based pilots are required to have EASA licences then the ECJ will continue to have a say in UK domestic affairs as it will be the final arbiter in any dispute between these UK workers and EASA. Another Brexit own goal.

And when the transition period ended, we were in the grip of the second wave and 1000s dying every day. A sensible government would’ve extended the transition period, but no we got a fudged deal on Christmas Eve.

This Vote Leave government have no other intention, other to disrupt every industry (look at freight, not just aviation) for their pet project. For them, Covid is disguising a lot at the moment, but the chickens may now be coming home to roost in the next few months.

The people calling it “Project Fear” will still be calling it that whatever people say… fingers will gladly stay in ears, just like Trump supporters in the US.

Simply ask for the CAA to change their position in this and obviously there will be other non beneficial counter reaccions. The current arrangement is only a temporary one and EASA can not trust the UK CAA past that point.

Also bear in mind that it is British license holders that are currently in this situation, this includes plenty of EU citizens. And there are also plenty of British EASA license holders benefiting from reduced competition at the recruitment stage giving them an advantage over their compratiots.

I think the main point the OP is making is that these jobs are UK based and due to not having an EASA licence he can't even apply.... the right to live and work in the UK is totally separate from the requirement for an EASA licence for these jobs. Any company basing it's pilots in the UK should be forced to at least accept UK licences. Don't forget we didn't all vote for Brexit. Yes, there are consequences from Brexit but not being able to apply for a flying job BASED IN THE UK should not be one of them. Anywhere else in Europe, well so be it, that's what the majority voted for but here in the UK, this should not be happening, it's a ridiculous situation that should have been sorted a long time ago by Boris and co.

Firstly I was replying to the poster above mine ranting on the airlines insisting on the airlines requiring the right to work in the U.K. they do.

as to the point on licensing. As things stand it is a requirement to have an EASA licence to fly an EASA registered aircraft no matter where it’s based. So the argument needs to be requiring U.K. based aircraft to be on the U.K. register. But that’s not going to happen. as has been pointed out many times the transport secretary’s own puddle jumper is N reg yet based in the U.K. admittedly that’s not for commercial use but you get the message.