I agree that S21 will be difficult. At least with the S20 season just gone people will have been booking for this right up to March and maybe beyond as initially a lot of people thought this would be over in a few months. So despite the massive amount of refunds airlines still had some money in the bank. How many people will be booking for S21? I would suggest a few are but it won't be many so airlines simply aren't getting any money coming in, as many rely on money in the bank for future travel to keep going.

If IAG falls how many airlines will go before it as they are one of the stronger ones?

Does anyone know the current share register of IAG There has just been a significant rights issue with lots of shares changing hands. It is very noticeable that IAG recently has been trading on the FTSE as one of the most traded, in some cases by a significant margin. Was this because large numbers of former shareholders chose not to take up their allotment Who actually holds a controlling interest. Is it Qatar?

The unmentionable aircraft in UAE has just had a second slashing of the workforce. Its going to be a rough ride

To put that in perspective Etihad were struggling with an over saturated market even prior to Covid. But yeah things are bad.

Bailing out Spanish & Irish jobs
 

Bombardierguy

I am intrigued as to how the UK Governments decision to extend IAG a guarantee for a £300m loan constitutes;
a) UK Taxpayers money
b) Bailing out Spanish & Irish jobs

The Spanish Government has committed 3 times as much.
https://www.paddleyourownkanoo.com/2...sh-government/

Staff in other airlines in the group have also suffered redundancies, accepted more onerous terms along with paycuts of 50% to 70%

More Bad News on the way......
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/ba-owner-s...?.tsrc=applewf

With the news that BA flight crew are now being furloughed, where does this leave pilots in the holding pool? Will the pool still be financed by furloughed pilots on 80% pay?

Surely they'll be furloughed too, they are still employees of the company after all?

Having tried to follow this simply for academic interest I think I need somebody to provide the "CliffsNotes" on the latest plan...it almost seems to my little mind as if pilots will brought out of "furlough" to perform a rostered duty", then drop back into it again...I must be misunderstanding it.. :confused:

The extended furlough is different in you can be furloughed part of the time. But yes Wiggy you are correct. Days off and leave are still that. Rostered work days with no work available are furlough.

Thanks bex, after posting I belatedly stumbled across some "FAQs" relevant to this and the concept of things like "flexi-furlough" are slightly clearer now.

Good Luck with all this.

PC767

Yes. The CRS pool pilots are still paid for by all the working BA pilots, furloughed or not.

All is quiet!
 

Rumour has it that a few people have left the CRS already.

I wonder how many senior Captains and FOs were put in the CRS withing a few years of retirement. This may help the junior members to jump up the ladder as it were when things improve.

All the best to everyone in this very difficult time.

And gone where? Certainly no one has left the CRS and being coursed.

The original plan was based on recovery starting in q1/q2 2021. That looks highly unlikely. What's in store for the CRS/pilots in general? There's been nothing reported/leaked in the Sun recently...

I'm pretty sure some have left the CRS and been on courses some now flying the line, not many mind you.

I've lost track of the terminology and which pool is which but last time I read about this (elsewhere) whilst there have been courses (e.g.I know for certain at least one senior ex-744 guy has converted to the 777 in the last few months) nobody in the CRS pool is likely to get a course until the summer....

Count von Altibar

im afraid that this is incorrect. The CRS ( the pool of pilots being funded by the line community) has not been touched yet. All courses since the CRS was populated have been for surplus ex 747 pilots to the 777,787 and some to 320. The 380 pilots have been doing short courses to the 350.
No one has left the CRS yet and is not expected to do so until Q3/4.
all pilots on courses since September were outside the CRS and deemed “operational” but without a current flying seat.

So, 321 (300 HCE) CRS pilots to be placed/re-typed from q3 2021. Is it feasible that this will be achieved in 2 years (by Q3 2023)? If not, unless they extend it, I guess that'll be the end of the PRP existence?

very feasible. In fact, there’s over 150 retirements (Age 65) planned in that period alone. Many Known unknowns And unknown unknowns (to quote DR), but it is most certainly do able.

Paddingtonbear

It's been mentioned several times that the PRP period will be extended if need be.

I've gotten lost with the Acronyms.... What is PRP?

It's the group of the 249 most junior pilots at the company that got made redundant as part of the deal that BALPA made with BA.

I don’t think that’s strictly correct but easy to assume.

All had less than 2 years service from what I know. I would say that’s pretty junior.

That is junior. What you know isn’t correct though as per the matrix more senior folk where let go. Some with more than 8 years service.

I believe that was one or two people with a disciplinary. Most where just caught out by LIFO.

Yes I think you’re correct. Most were caught out by LIFO.

Percula

LIFO..ish.. due to the 787/350 and former BACF immunity, the top end of the 249 made redundant were 350+ places off the bottom of the MSL.
Still junior, but approaching PP3 vs pilots who were only weeks (or days) in the company when Covid hit, and yet to touch a BA aircraft but kept their jobs.

BACF were certainly not immune. BACF contracts are with BA and therefore their service counted towards LIFO.

Imagine the uproar if BACF DOJ was suddenly used for bidding purposes.
At the end of the day there were approximately 70-80 pilots that got shafted out of seniority order.
In my eyes pilots with c. 2 years flying for BA mainline should not have lost their job ahead of those who may have only been in weeks or months, regardless of fleet or who they worked for previously. That’s exactly what LIFO was for.

There is no point imagining something that isn’t happening. Re the bidding process.
Although you may not like to think of the BACF Pilots as part of BA, their contracts say otherwise.
Legally their service had to count.
I would question the number being as high as 70-80.
There may well be that many BACF Pilots at mainline, but most of them would have already served more than 2 years. And therefore regardless of their city flyer service wouldn’t have been up for redundancy.

legally their service counts for statutory purposes when calculating a redundancy payment.
But it has no legal standing when determining a redundancy matrix. The company and the union can agree to put whatever they like in there provided it is non discriminatory, as we saw with Virgin when LIFO went out the window.
As LIFO doesn’t legally need to be part of the redundancy matrix, it can’t be legally required to consider DOJ at a subsidiary.
We have LIFO in the MOA to protect us but rely on Balpa to uphold that, which for the majority they did but a small number got very unlucky.

I believe ther were 20-30 former BACF pilots ‘below the line’ plus approx 50 787/350, hence the 70-80 made CR out of order.

We have LIFO in the MOA which states “ total service with an employer shall be taken into consideration” nowhere does it say the MSL is to be used.

And if you’re going to use 787/350 figures then it’s not just Cityflyer people who were saved, they wouldn’t even make up the majority in that group.

Again the MOA mentions retaining employment “in those showing high efficiency”.

Many many people were unlucky in all this, I just hope some sort of normality is in our future.

My understanding from the numerous emails sent out by the union and company was that the 350/787 folk saved did not push the line up. This was explicitly explained so many times it was boring. They were saved at no cost. They were saved at companies request, not the union's. The only issue is it makes is those of us that were screwed a little bitter that junior people kept their jobs. Either x lose their job or x+787/350 lose their jobs. The line didn't rise by 40, 50 or any number to save the 350/78 pilots. It might make you sleep better at night to have them sacked too, but it is a fundamentally worse solution.
350/78 talk just muddies the water IMO. All it did was reduce the number of redundancies (a good thing).
BACF did increase the position of the line, but is legally backed so no arguments there, just the way it is and sadly overlooked by all, initially.

Mainly being devils advocate, a lot of stuff has happened I don't agree with. Covid is (say it together) unprecedented.

CaptainSox

I said both in my first post on the matter, to quote - “due to the 787/350 and former BACF immunity”

It was simply a reply to someone who had said LIFO was used to point out yes, to an extent, but not completely.

Pips are squeaking.. British Airways to defer £450m of pension contributions

I think if I was in NAPS I would be seriously thinking about taking my money out.

I think many people are in the process of doing so....or at least leaving just enough not to get penalized when/if NAPS goes into the PPF.

Can NAPS go into the PPF if BA is still trading?

Yes........if it’s part of an RAA....... that’s what happened at Monarch in 2014.