Everything has a price in business.

With regard to the gatwick pilots, does anyone know their future yet? Has the bid been forgotten or are they all swimming?

What a balls up i'm hearing about.
People being called at home to be told they are being made redundant only to be called the next day to be told there's been an error we want you back.

Unbelievable!

To clarify, Pilots?

Given when the pilot CRs were announced relative to the timing of TURINs post I doubt it's pilots..

What a ba***s up
 

Probably this lot ......

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/124599...rkers-strikes/

Or this lot ?

https://www.independent.co.uk/travel...-a9679336.html

...

I was refering to the Licenced Engineers, Techs, Mechs and Maintenance workers who have been totally shafted over the last few days. LGW and LHR.

From what I'm hearing there is going to be very little left at LGW after this.

Good luck TURIN, sounds like you all need it.

In other news it looks like the wheels have come off the BALPA BA company council overnight.

Pray tell!

Now is the time for all the unions to be on the same wavelength at BA, but as usual their not even in the same room.

Anybody even thinking of booking will think twice with the threat of strikes on the horizon.

Industrial suicide
 

Industrial suicide by Unite.Good old Len, the ship is sinking so let’s blow a massive hole in the side. You’re right, who will book anything now. I know I won’t.

A real sh*t sandwich for most. Stuck between Unite on one side and Walsh the other.

indeed it is a sh#t sandwich and all the proud creation of Mr Walsh (a CEO taking his golden handshake and not perturbed at the carnage he leaves behind, as it is for the chairman and his €4 million ‘VR’). This could have been handled very differently without kicking the wasps nest within industrial relations. The issue now is that the majority of BA staff having endured a highly emotional roller coaster, are being presented with contracts or proposals which are unaffordable and not worth having. For my part, the current proposal I have from BA will not be workable or affordable. I hope a compromise can be found or I shall be off with a constructive dismissal claim in hand. The majority of BA staff currently have nothing to gain by helping keep BA solvent, not even future payback. So when, if, 2019 levels of business and profitability return in 2023/2024 as indicated by Walsh, most staff will remain on covid crisis 2020 pay and conditions. Nothing to gain, nothing to lose.

PC767.

You are correct in saying this has been a horrendous time for all of us within BA but it is a very real crisis, just driving round to TBA or TBC and seeing the sheer number of aircraft all buttoned up at both the engineering site and the south side is astounding.

You then claim current staff have nothing to gain from keeping BA solvent and finish your post by claiming there is nothing to lose... We have everything to lose, should, heaven forbid, BA go under we all lose our jobs it’s as simple as that so the talk of strikes and removal of slots is just not what we need right now, We need to try and Create confidence in our customers, no customers means no jobs.

i am not defending the management their approach to this has been underhand and appalling but in my mind there will be a round 2 and UNiTE are asking us to shoot ourselves in the foot, they need to tone down their aggression before it’s too late.

I guess a critical temperature has been reached as Balpa has just spontaneously combusted.....- WTAF as the kids might ask....

The saddest part for me is that I agree with you I need principle that slot removal and strike action is the last thing the company need. Many of us, like yourself, are passionate about our commercial alma mater and wish to see it continue and thrive when this crisis is over. But no so passionate that we are willing to lose of homes, holidays and lifestyles and more to keep her going. I’m not prepared to sell my family home and downsize, disrupting my children for a PERMANENT contract change which will ultimately only financially benefit shareholders and senior management, who by gift of the company are also shareholders.

Being reasonable and talking to Cruz et al hasn’t helped BALPA. I hear BA are reneging or altering the settlement agreement for those taking VR and that the chair of the BACC has resigned. Other reps suspended.

The only point of consideration is whether Walsh and his cronies actually want to push BA to a devastating strike, bringing the company down into administration and being able to restart with a totally clean sheet of t&cs for all. Doing so isn’t hardly disruptive to a business which does not have any current business. The dangerous downside could be a government re-nationalization of BA as an important British infrastructure. Unless Walsh has already agreed terms with Boris & Co.

I have not heard anything, rumour or otherwise, about any VR settlements being changed...

But OTOH, yes, the BACC chair resigned earlier this PM, and yes, several reps were suspended earlier in the day or last night. I'm not privy to the exact circumstances..I'm obviously not in the right Whatsapp group..

I am reminded of the demise of the coal industry when I hear of people demanding temporary change, and wanting to strike at the moment. It is pure insanity.

I love this. Balpa has been a management boys club for years. It just serves the few at the top. I know many a BA pilot that hate Bapla and everything about it but stay in for the personal protections.Look at the way it handled its strike and last internal disagreements. I hope the whole house of cards comes tumbling down.

A source tells me several senior BACC reps have been having behind the bike shed chats with the other side
High Treason

From what I'm now hearing I'm not sure it would be fair to describe what possibly went on as "High Treason" but the real problem seems to be some on the BACC and the NEC seem to want to label it as such for reasons I can't begin to fathom...:oh:.

What I do know is that two or three of the most experienced long term BACC Reps have benched, hardly a smart move in the current circumstances..

PC767

None of us want to accept permanent contract changes, but I have to disagree with you with regards Slot removal and strike action, bringing down the company and getting it into administration would be an unmitigated disaster for all of us, job losses would increase and any Ts&Cs would be far worse than what is currently on the table.

We are all angry but we need cool heads and UNITE are playing with all our jobs not just those they represent, consumer confidence is at an all time low because of COVID and an incompetent UK government and that threat means what little business we have (about 250 flights today) will drift off to Easyjet etc and the spiral continues until the doors are shut. At that point it’s not a permanently changed contract but it’s no contract at all.

Sorry but now is not the time to threaten strike action or round 2 will be far worse than anyone is expecting.

Dear all,

After careful consideration overnight, I have decided to resign as Chairman of the BACC with immediate effect. I accepted the role at a hugely difficult time when everyone else was looking at their feet and have tried my best to steer a collaborative path despite the underlying tribalism and politics on the CC. Having served on two other CCs, I simply cannot comprehend the level of selfishness and politics on display within this council, undoubtedly in cahoots with members of the NEC, to the point where the events of the last week and settling old scores and personal rivalries are put ahead of focussing on the needs of the members at this critical juncture. Literally on the day we have members made CR from BA for the first time ever, when we should be focussed on them, for internal politics to be seen to take over is grotesque beyond belief.

We are in the midst of the greatest crisis facing our members and association ever and as I have repeatedly said to the CC throughout this process, now is the time to put personal agendas aside and focus on the job at hand. Sadly, this CC is incapable of doing so and I simply cannot continue to be associated with it. For my own sanity and health, remaining chairman of this dysfunctional council, trying to do the impossible and 'do the right thing' ahead of politics is no longer sustainable. Personally, I have never felt so low as I do right now and despite significant wobbles throughout the last few months I have tried to soldier on. I simply can't do it any longer.

Attached is the decision paper I wrote up urging an election, I strongly recommend this is actioned as soon as possible, and for democratic integrity, I demand that the three suspended reps are unsuspended and allowed to stand in election (should they even want to after all this). Otherwise, by excluding them from any election, the association leaves itself open to accusations that this entire charade is timed with that very objective in mind. I note that suspension is not an automatic requirement for an investigation as other complaints have not led to suspension. I understand that some of my colleagues hold grievances and it is right that they can raise them, but democratic accountability is best served at the ballot box and they must make their case with those that truly matter, the members, rather than relying on manoeuvres. I note that some individuals amongst the complainants that were against my intention to delay the election back in April to focus on tackling Covid, have now changed stance completely and want an election delayed to give priority to their complaint.

Regarding the complaint itself, I was approached by the complainants back in June as they wanted to force a vote of no confidence in the three reps. As everyone will appreciate, it was a critical time with huge stakes and, along with our National Officer, so I said 'No, now is not the time for politics - concentrate on the job at hand please.' However, I did have a chat with Nick Brown at the time and accepted his apology for anything that I might have felt put out by (which I didn't) and so moved on and focussed on the real work. The complainants were not happy with this and so it has been bubbling away, which I've tried to keep a lid on in order to keep the show on the rather bumpy road. Now that the reps involved have gone direct to the NEC to try and force things due to my refusal to facilitate and get drawn into politics whilst the house is burning down around us, I cannot see a credible way for me to continue in role. Whilst I appreciate that we all have different views, styles and principles and whilst I have been accused by one of the complainants of 'abdication of responsibility' as a result of my stance and not allowing their thirst for a vote of no confidence to distract us, I maintain that now is absolutely not the time for this politics and therefore, I am left with no choice but to resign. As this now leaves the BACC with no chairman, and the one remaining Vice Chair, the P&P chairman (during the biggest P&P project in a generation) and the scheduling chairman all suspended from rep duties, I once again urge a snap election to populate what was already a zombie parliament but has now moved beyond life support. This CC has no credibility and cannot limp on any longer.

I want to publicly thank those reps that have put their heart and soul into recent months and that despite all the underlying issues, 'carried on regardless'. My decision is with a heavy heart because I believe we need strong representation right now more than ever as things will move on at pace, I'm sure. I remain available as a sounding board if the union believes it will help the members and couldn't in good conscience step away totally right now, but I cannot see any way I can stay as chairman under these conditions.

Regards,

For the benefit of those of us who are no longer active BA pilots (and hence no access to company forums) but have friends and relatives who are, is anyone able to give a concise outline of what this is about? I can understand there has been a lot of strong feelings about what changes in T&Cs and employment numbers, but what has triggered this crisis?

If I understand this correctly, BACC representatives may only consult/talk/converse with managers by pre-arranging a meeting and recording the minutes.

brilliant. I'm sure that works.

Wiggy judging from the last two posts my High Treason charge is not misplaced
The only way this can be resolved is for the NEC to dissolve the BACC and take charge
themselves. Clearly there are vast numbers of displaced L/H pilots who feel lost,
but rules have to be followed, the whole airline will disappear down a vast black hole
unless you all work together

I see that people are happy to post the names of those suspended but those who made the complaint are still hiding behind the veil of anonymity. This is just plain cowardice.

As for suspending the BACC and the NEC taking over within BA, it would kill BALPA. No one would follow reps from another company foisted upon them.

hec7or

"Off the record" conversations take place in all industries. They help to clear the air at a senior level and frequently lead to issues being resolved.

Yes it is...

From what I've heard the problem was supposedly "off the record" conversation of the type referred to in other posts such as hec7or's and Shaman's. It can just as easily described as the reality of negotiation.

You are having a laugh aren't you?

Trust me, given the way the NEC appear to have handled this many of the BALPA members at BA are in absolutely no mood this AM to have the NEC come stomping in and take charge.....

Instead there is a widespread feeling that some of the ex-BACC Reps who were elevated to the NEC in the last year or two have seen an opportunity to settle old scores.

Once they had lodged a complaint it seems the NEC felt obliged by the rulebook to suspend two/three of the BACCs most effective, knowledgable and highly regarded reps...just at the time there might be another S188 letter coming down the tracks.

As a result I'm sure you'll now understand that any attempt at "Direct Rule" by the NEC (if such a thing were possible) would finish BALPA at BA stone dead, in minutes..and there go a lot of membership subscriptions...and there goes BALPA..or at least it's shiny offices.

BA management, who obviously don't hold the rule book in as high regard as the NEC,must be loving this.:rolleyes:

Hi wonder what those" settle old scores are" ?
Seems like a lot of growing up is needed by some of the reps.

Wouldn't disagree on that particular point.......

For years, even to this non rep, it appeared that some of the reps were capable of getting into an argument with themselves in a locked room....

I might be rejoining BALPA!

In the past I have been a rep in two large airlines. I have also resigned from BALPA twice over the lack of interest in matters concerning non-BA pilots (and on both occasions, increased my pension contributions by the equivalent of my subs). It looks like time to consider rejoining.

(As I'm sure is quite clear, I am not a BA pilot.)

Why has the long explanation of the complainants views been removed, such censorship does not help matters
My suggestion that the only way to resolve this pickle quickly is for the BACC chairman to reconsider his resignation with all sacked members reinstated, with a supervision of the 4 BA NEC members to arbitrate and crucially the Gen Sec to get involved.
As head of the organisation he seems to be invisible
A truly democratic election would take months to organise and run

Peter Principle, innit?

My 2p, and I am not BA, nor privy to the negotiations:

Covid19 is an unprecedented global situation. Now is NOT the time for the management to be taking advantage. Nor is it the time for infighting, settling old scores, or for crew to threaten strike action.

The most important thing is to get the wheels of the airline turning again, and this will require everyone's cooperation.

Could it not be agreed that as many BA staff as possible return to work under a "lifeboat" system of temporary reduced pay, part time rosters and skeleton Ts & Cs, (same for all, including management), on the express understanding by both sides that this will only be for, say, a year until green shoots start appearing. After this period, talks and negotiations will resume to restore pay and Ts & Cs and take the business forward, and nothing signed, accepted or implied now will be valid or enforceable after the "lifeboat" period.

Would that be feasible? It could get many back to work, earning at least something, with their ratings and SEP etc. current, and hopefully the business will survive.

Uplinker

That is far too sensible when the people at the top of the business want to cut costs now for two layers of jam tomorrow.

Uplinker

Short answer is - No it couldn't be agreed...

That's basically the sort of thing I think the reasonable Unions, cognisant of the world situation, suggested to BA management right at the start of all this and I think would have been prepared to sign off on.

For the reason richardwpprn stated those at the top wanted much more.

Lordflasheart

Perhaps you might like to inform readers here of exactly what the BA pilots strike was all about in September last year, which caused the company to issue a profit warning? Seemed rather bolshy and petulant behaviour not even worthy of Len McCluskey.

Even more mysterious is what settled the dispute? Nobody seems to know. Hardly covered yourselves in glory.

So I wouldn’t be too critical of other employees in BA who do a have genuine reason for industrial action, rather than simply tossing their toys out of the pram.

Not a very helpful comment considering you clearly know the answer. In defence the actual existence of the company along with all jobs was not an issue then, following a record profit year following which most of it was chucked at shareholders and top management.

No not very “helpful”, and about as helpful as many BA flight crew were during the cabin crew dispute who acted as strikebreakers.......feeding the crocodile in the hope it would eat them last.

Some BA pilots were highly critical of BALPA last year and the handling of their dispute. Although there was a settlement of sorts, many BA Flight Crew considered it “unfinished business”.

I was just wondering when this industrial action is likely to start up again?

Count.

Whatever the rights and wrongs of numerous strikes in the past (don’t forget the mixed fleet strike a couple of years ago) now is just not the time to be threatening a strike.

This is very very real, I suggest driving around to TBA / TBC and just seeing the sheer number of aircraft sitting idle, 747 fleet has gone just like that, the word on the street is only 8 380s are coming back and a significant proportion of the 777s are to be stood down for a while. There are 16 A321s sitting in the ground at Glasgow, the list is endless. All airlines are scrambling about for any fares to reduce the enormous losses and any threats from UNITE with regards strikes will undermine what little confidence remains, no passengers = no money = no jobs.

BA have behaved outrageously, Walsh and Cruz have twisted this situation to achieve what they have wanted for years and for that they should hang their heads in shame but UNITE have been no better, burying their heads in the sand and not talking to the company, a political campaign to remove slots (and therefore even more jobs) and now threatening a strike, akin to shooting your sled in the foot.

i have survived round 1, but there will be a round 2, will I survive that? What about a round 3 or round 4? UNITE are playing a dangerous game and need to tone it down for all our sakes or there may just be no jobs at all.