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-   -   BA pilots vote to strike (https://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/623798-ba-pilots-vote-strike.html)

JliderPilot 22nd Jul 2019 15:47

BA pilots vote to strike
 

Dannyboy39 22nd Jul 2019 17:38

Ok devils advocate time... in a game of hearts and minds, in what way does 3500 pilots voting for strike action, on average earning £100k+ pa as well as rejecting a 11.5% pay rise, in the peak of the summer season, going to do them or the company any favours?

I totally understand if it’s about conditions and working practices - office staff and engineers and certainly cabin crew across industry have been suffering for 10+ years with people depressing the rate; by their own colleagues as well as the bosses. But if it’s just a numbers game an 11.5% pay bump... that’s hard to comprehend. See the staff of Monarch, Air Berlin, Primera, Wow and other airlines struggling...

frozenpilot 22nd Jul 2019 18:50

Danny boy...

shows how little you know! Don’t believe any headline figures. Do your research, look at Lufthansa, KLM... and the American carriers pay deals before judging. Then understand better how hard and how much BA Pilots have sacrificed in the past ten years. Then consider inflation against this claim of 11.5%... also, look at the rises the CEO has enjoyed recently, as well as a bumper one off dividend for share holders. Only when you see the true picture will you understand how shafted we have been and the true insult this pay offer is.....

oh and please understand any pay deal is based on ‘ unspecified change initiatives.’ Translated to mean - self funded pay rise through harder work.

Play devils advocate.... do your research and look at fact.. not spin!

WhatTheDeuce 22nd Jul 2019 19:05

11.5% is 3.7% per year over the 3 year deal - in the most profitable times the airline has ever encountered.

frozenpilot 22nd Jul 2019 19:14

It’s not even 11.5%... year three the anniversary date is moved to April, making it 10.5%.... Before RPI is factored

bex88 22nd Jul 2019 19:47

From my point of view pay is not the main reason people have voted the way they have. I don’t think the pay deal is unacceptable but just be straight. It’s 4% 3.5% and 3%. I cannot accept the “business changes” without being told what that means. They could offer me 25% and if it means longer hours then I am not interested.

I really hope a compromise is found because I don’t think anyone really wants to strike but I think many are prepared to do so.

Dannyboy39 22nd Jul 2019 19:55


Originally Posted by frozenpilot (Post 10525317)
Danny boy...

shows how little you know! Don’t believe any headline figures. Do your research, look at Lufthansa, KLM... and the American carriers pay deals before judging. Then understand better how hard and how much BA Pilots have sacrificed in the past ten years. Then consider inflation against this claim of 11.5%... also, look at the rises the CEO has enjoyed recently, as well as a bumper one off dividend for share holders. Only when you see the true picture will you understand how shafted we have been and the true insult this pay offer is.....

oh and please understand any pay deal is based on ‘ unspecified change initiatives.’ Translated to mean - self funded pay rise through harder work.

Play devils advocate.... do your research and look at fact.. not spin!

You can trade a KLMAF / Lufty pay deal with an easy or a Ryan or any other P2F operator. The point I’m trying to make is that the whole industry is in the same boat as well as looking at it from an outsiders point of view - ie the customers and potential ones. Pilots earning 6 figures rejecting 11.5% over 3 years doesnt look good. How many people have the luxury of turning down such an offer? BALPA do a great job for their members however not everyone has the same protections. Cabin crew in some airlines barely make the living wage. Engineers and office staff longer hours on reduced resources whilst competing against reduced margins from E Europe and other territories.

MikeAlpha320 22nd Jul 2019 20:39

Why doesn't it look good?

We are paid the money we are because of the responsibility we bear. We aren't Cabin crew, engineers or office staff- benchmark us against other pilots please. As for your 'six figures'- how many of us are on that kind of wage? Given the huge amount of recent joiners, I can assure you its not that many.

Public opinion will never be on our side- its how BA want to play it. As a passenger all I care about is the safe operation of the aeroplane. It is not relevant what we earn. We need to be sufficiently rested and motivated to do the job correctly. As posted above- do your research.

RexBanner 22nd Jul 2019 21:11


Originally Posted by bex88 (Post 10525360)
I cannot accept the “business changes” without being told what that means.

They’ve already told us, Bex. You only have to go back to Klaus’ Q&A a few months back, it’s three day long haul and airport hotels, they’re quite transparent about it. He conceded they’re limited in how they can squeeze more out of SH due to the Night Jet Ban at Heathrow and Long Haul is already efficient. I struggle to see what else they can do unless they’re also eyeing up major changes to aspirational bidding (completely foolish IMHO as it’s the only thing left that attracts people to this place).

(The only thing that will spare us from airport hotels is that half of their business model is preying on and profiteering from the cancellations and times of mass disruption. They can’t really do that if half their rooms are full of aircrew so will probably demand a premium. At least that’s what I’m hoping).

The Mixmaster 22nd Jul 2019 21:17

Public support is absolutely irrelevant and a well known tactic employed by management to try to bend the will of organised labour. Your Colleagues in other airlines are right behind you on this BA Pilots. Wish you all the best!

richardthethird 22nd Jul 2019 21:18

Best of luck with it

TURIN 22nd Jul 2019 22:04


Originally Posted by MikeAlpha320 (Post 10525400)
Why doesn't it look good?

We are paid the money we are because of the responsibility we bear. We aren't Cabin crew, engineers or office staff- benchmark us against other pilots please. As for your 'six figures'- how many of us are on that kind of wage? Given the huge amount of recent joiners, I can assure you its not that many.

Funny you should mention bench marking (and resposibility). Engineers within BA have been asking for bench marking for some time. It's no coincidence that in many airlines, UK and abroad, Licenced engineers are paid more than pilots, especially FOs. Except at BA.

Good luck.

gtseraf 22nd Jul 2019 22:32


Originally Posted by Dannyboy39 (Post 10525369)

You can trade a KLMAF / Lufty pay deal with an easy or a Ryan or any other P2F operator. The point I’m trying to make is that the whole industry is in the same boat as well as looking at it from an outsiders point of view - ie the customers and potential ones. Pilots earning 6 figures rejecting 11.5% over 3 years doesnt look good. How many people have the luxury of turning down such an offer? BALPA do a great job for their members however not everyone has the same protections. Cabin crew in some airlines barely make the living wage. Engineers and office staff longer hours on reduced resources whilst competing against reduced margins from E Europe and other territories.

This is where the pilot representative group needs to get hold of a good marketing company and spin their very valid point of view in a way the average person on the street will support. The, in my opinion, obscene packages the CEO's and other top people are earning in corporations is happily accepted by the masses due to the spin these people have sold to the masses.

I say, Good on you BA pilots, it is time pilots stood up for themselves, I really would like to see more of this around the world.

2unlimited 22nd Jul 2019 22:59


Originally Posted by Dannyboy39 (Post 10525369)

You can trade a KLMAF / Lufty pay deal with an easy or a Ryan or any other P2F operator.

Who are the P2F operators? Please elaborate.

FACoff 22nd Jul 2019 23:59


Originally Posted by RexBanner (Post 10525422)

They’ve already told us, Bex. You only have to go back to Klaus’ Q&A a few months back, it’s three day long haul and airport hotels, they’re quite transparent about it. He conceded they’re limited in how they can squeeze more out of SH due to the Night Jet Ban at Heathrow and Long Haul is already efficient. I struggle to see what else they can do unless they’re also eyeing up major changes to aspirational bidding (completely foolish IMHO as it’s the only thing left that attracts people to this place).

Short of increasing the freeze (entirely possible I suppose) I can't see them getting rid of bidding. BA aren't stupid - short haul would become a ghost town. And 3 day west coast in an airport hotel? Who would join PP34 for that?

BA need to take stock and remind themselves why they're still lucky enough to have a (grossly reduced) number of applicants, however suitable. In spite of the pay dispute, it isn't for fast cash.

As Bex says, all the money in the world could not make me work harder than I do at the moment. The idea that we would sign a blank cheque for "unspecified business change", especially for a completely arbitrary and unknown one-off sum, is just hilarious.

Roll on the strike.

Doug E Style 23rd Jul 2019 06:30

That a group of people who, by their nature and training, are conservative, risk-averse and very capable of making considered, rational decisions has decided to make a stand speaks volumes. A management gets the workforce it deserves.

P06T 23rd Jul 2019 08:41


Originally Posted by The Mixmaster (Post 10525428)
Public support is absolutely irrelevant and a well known tactic employed by management to try to bend the will of organised labour. Your Colleagues in other airlines are right behind you on this BA Pilots. Wish you all the best!

Here here!

UberPilot 23rd Jul 2019 09:46


Originally Posted by RexBanner (Post 10525422)


They’ve already told us, Bex. You only have to go back to Klaus’ Q&A a few months back, it’s three day long haul and airport hotels, they’re quite transparent about it. He conceded they’re limited in how they can squeeze more out of SH due to the Night Jet Ban at Heathrow and Long Haul is already efficient. I struggle to see what else they can do unless they’re also eyeing up major changes to aspirational bidding (completely foolish IMHO as it’s the only thing left that attracts people to this place).

(The only thing that will spare us from airport hotels is that half of their business model is preying on and profiteering from the cancellations and times of mass disruption. They can’t really do that if half their rooms are full of aircrew so will probably demand a premium. At least that’s what I’m hoping).

I fear that you’re hope is in vain! My company uses airport hotels when we visit the sim or have the occasional night stop and I reckon they’re almost all at least a third full of crew. Airlines represent a steady source of guaranteed income more so then the average punter who is staying there before an early flight. Also, the booking is done via a contractor who will just be tasked to find you a hotel for that night - a little bit of disputation does not really bother them.

Trossie 23rd Jul 2019 10:08

Many here say that public support is irrelevant. Public support will be zero. Public opposition will be huge. When the travelling public, who on average earn a fraction of what the striking pilots already earn, have their travel plans seriously disrupted for those pilots to get a pay rise that most of that travelling public could only dream of, the opposition will be huge. Don't expect support from a single newspaper, TV news channel nor radio station. Expect to be vilified by all of them. Don't expect them to listen to your complaints that you should be compared with German, Dutch or American airlines, they won't be interested in that. They will be blaming you for their travel disruption.

thetimesreader84 23rd Jul 2019 10:32

Every newspaper, politician, and man in the street in the U.K. loves the NHS. “Cornerstone of the nation” “what makes Britain Great” “Great dedicated, hardworking staff”

... until the Junior doctors (with good reason) decided that their new contract would be dangerous & a long way below market rate. Then they were absolutely slaughtered by the press (“Putting lives in danger” despite outcomes actually being shown to have improved on the strike days, due to greater availability of consultants who by & large supported the Juniors).

Cognitive Dissonance is not a thing in the media. They will churn out whatever line their masters in the establishment want them to. This strike will be no different.



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