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BA pilots vote to strike
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Ok devils advocate time... in a game of hearts and minds, in what way does 3500 pilots voting for strike action, on average earning £100k+ pa as well as rejecting a 11.5% pay rise, in the peak of the summer season, going to do them or the company any favours? I totally understand if it’s about conditions and working practices - office staff and engineers and certainly cabin crew across industry have been suffering for 10+ years with people depressing the rate; by their own colleagues as well as the bosses. But if it’s just a numbers game an 11.5% pay bump... that’s hard to comprehend. See the staff of Monarch, Air Berlin, Primera, Wow and other airlines struggling... |
Danny boy... shows how little you know! Don’t believe any headline figures. Do your research, look at Lufthansa, KLM... and the American carriers pay deals before judging. Then understand better how hard and how much BA Pilots have sacrificed in the past ten years. Then consider inflation against this claim of 11.5%... also, look at the rises the CEO has enjoyed recently, as well as a bumper one off dividend for share holders. Only when you see the true picture will you understand how shafted we have been and the true insult this pay offer is..... oh and please understand any pay deal is based on ‘ unspecified change initiatives.’ Translated to mean - self funded pay rise through harder work. Play devils advocate.... do your research and look at fact.. not spin! |
11.5% is 3.7% per year over the 3 year deal - in the most profitable times the airline has ever encountered.
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It’s not even 11.5%... year three the anniversary date is moved to April, making it 10.5%.... Before RPI is factored |
From my point of view pay is not the main reason people have voted the way they have. I don’t think the pay deal is unacceptable but just be straight. It’s 4% 3.5% and 3%. I cannot accept the “business changes” without being told what that means. They could offer me 25% and if it means longer hours then I am not interested. I really hope a compromise is found because I don’t think anyone really wants to strike but I think many are prepared to do so. |
Originally Posted by frozenpilot
(Post 10525317)
Danny boy... shows how little you know! Don’t believe any headline figures. Do your research, look at Lufthansa, KLM... and the American carriers pay deals before judging. Then understand better how hard and how much BA Pilots have sacrificed in the past ten years. Then consider inflation against this claim of 11.5%... also, look at the rises the CEO has enjoyed recently, as well as a bumper one off dividend for share holders. Only when you see the true picture will you understand how shafted we have been and the true insult this pay offer is..... oh and please understand any pay deal is based on ‘ unspecified change initiatives.’ Translated to mean - self funded pay rise through harder work. Play devils advocate.... do your research and look at fact.. not spin! |
Why doesn't it look good?
We are paid the money we are because of the responsibility we bear. We aren't Cabin crew, engineers or office staff- benchmark us against other pilots please. As for your 'six figures'- how many of us are on that kind of wage? Given the huge amount of recent joiners, I can assure you its not that many. Public opinion will never be on our side- its how BA want to play it. As a passenger all I care about is the safe operation of the aeroplane. It is not relevant what we earn. We need to be sufficiently rested and motivated to do the job correctly. As posted above- do your research. |
Originally Posted by bex88
(Post 10525360)
I cannot accept the “business changes” without being told what that means.
(The only thing that will spare us from airport hotels is that half of their business model is preying on and profiteering from the cancellations and times of mass disruption. They can’t really do that if half their rooms are full of aircrew so will probably demand a premium. At least that’s what I’m hoping). |
Public support is absolutely irrelevant and a well known tactic employed by management to try to bend the will of organised labour. Your Colleagues in other airlines are right behind you on this BA Pilots. Wish you all the best! |
Best of luck with it
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Originally Posted by MikeAlpha320
(Post 10525400)
Why doesn't it look good?
We are paid the money we are because of the responsibility we bear. We aren't Cabin crew, engineers or office staff- benchmark us against other pilots please. As for your 'six figures'- how many of us are on that kind of wage? Given the huge amount of recent joiners, I can assure you its not that many. Good luck. |
Originally Posted by Dannyboy39
(Post 10525369)
You can trade a KLMAF / Lufty pay deal with an easy or a Ryan or any other P2F operator. The point I’m trying to make is that the whole industry is in the same boat as well as looking at it from an outsiders point of view - ie the customers and potential ones. Pilots earning 6 figures rejecting 11.5% over 3 years doesnt look good. How many people have the luxury of turning down such an offer? BALPA do a great job for their members however not everyone has the same protections. Cabin crew in some airlines barely make the living wage. Engineers and office staff longer hours on reduced resources whilst competing against reduced margins from E Europe and other territories. I say, Good on you BA pilots, it is time pilots stood up for themselves, I really would like to see more of this around the world. |
Originally Posted by Dannyboy39
(Post 10525369)
You can trade a KLMAF / Lufty pay deal with an easy or a Ryan or any other P2F operator. |
Originally Posted by RexBanner
(Post 10525422)
They’ve already told us, Bex. You only have to go back to Klaus’ Q&A a few months back, it’s three day long haul and airport hotels, they’re quite transparent about it. He conceded they’re limited in how they can squeeze more out of SH due to the Night Jet Ban at Heathrow and Long Haul is already efficient. I struggle to see what else they can do unless they’re also eyeing up major changes to aspirational bidding (completely foolish IMHO as it’s the only thing left that attracts people to this place). BA need to take stock and remind themselves why they're still lucky enough to have a (grossly reduced) number of applicants, however suitable. In spite of the pay dispute, it isn't for fast cash. As Bex says, all the money in the world could not make me work harder than I do at the moment. The idea that we would sign a blank cheque for "unspecified business change", especially for a completely arbitrary and unknown one-off sum, is just hilarious. Roll on the strike. |
That a group of people who, by their nature and training, are conservative, risk-averse and very capable of making considered, rational decisions has decided to make a stand speaks volumes. A management gets the workforce it deserves. |
Originally Posted by The Mixmaster
(Post 10525428)
Public support is absolutely irrelevant and a well known tactic employed by management to try to bend the will of organised labour. Your Colleagues in other airlines are right behind you on this BA Pilots. Wish you all the best! |
Originally Posted by RexBanner
(Post 10525422)
They’ve already told us, Bex. You only have to go back to Klaus’ Q&A a few months back, it’s three day long haul and airport hotels, they’re quite transparent about it. He conceded they’re limited in how they can squeeze more out of SH due to the Night Jet Ban at Heathrow and Long Haul is already efficient. I struggle to see what else they can do unless they’re also eyeing up major changes to aspirational bidding (completely foolish IMHO as it’s the only thing left that attracts people to this place). (The only thing that will spare us from airport hotels is that half of their business model is preying on and profiteering from the cancellations and times of mass disruption. They can’t really do that if half their rooms are full of aircrew so will probably demand a premium. At least that’s what I’m hoping). |
Many here say that public support is irrelevant. Public support will be zero. Public opposition will be huge. When the travelling public, who on average earn a fraction of what the striking pilots already earn, have their travel plans seriously disrupted for those pilots to get a pay rise that most of that travelling public could only dream of, the opposition will be huge. Don't expect support from a single newspaper, TV news channel nor radio station. Expect to be vilified by all of them. Don't expect them to listen to your complaints that you should be compared with German, Dutch or American airlines, they won't be interested in that. They will be blaming you for their travel disruption.
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Every newspaper, politician, and man in the street in the U.K. loves the NHS. “Cornerstone of the nation” “what makes Britain Great” “Great dedicated, hardworking staff” ... until the Junior doctors (with good reason) decided that their new contract would be dangerous & a long way below market rate. Then they were absolutely slaughtered by the press (“Putting lives in danger” despite outcomes actually being shown to have improved on the strike days, due to greater availability of consultants who by & large supported the Juniors). Cognitive Dissonance is not a thing in the media. They will churn out whatever line their masters in the establishment want them to. This strike will be no different. |
I may be a bit out of step with the majority here, but what makes anyone think that they are entitled to an annual pay rise? I've spent most of my working life in UK manufacturing engineering and have lost count of how many years went by without a payrise. If your employer is not making enough money, how do they find more to increase the wages bill? Sure it is annoying when those at the top of the organisation award themselves pay increases or other benefits whilst those doing the actual work get zero, but that's life. Same as the best way out is to find another,better paid job but if you cannot, then so be it, you just have to accept a fall in your standard of living. The rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer but a strike won't change things.
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Originally Posted by Paul Lupp
(Post 10525979)
If your employer is not making enough money, how do they find more to increase the wages bill?
Go and have a look at BA's annual reports for the last year or two. Then tell me how much you would regard as being "enough" to increase the wages bill or perhaps provide a meaningful profit share for all staff. |
Good luck to all the BA pilots fighting for the rights!! i have to say there are sooo many trolls on this tread. I wonder if someone has hired them. arguing with trolls is like, try to learn blind people to see. |
Originally Posted by Paul Lupp
(Post 10525979)
Sure it is annoying when those at the top of the organisation award themselves pay increases or other benefits whilst those doing the actual work get zero, but that's life.
The gap between the highest and the lowest paid in most UK organizations is the biggest its ever been. Only legal collective bargaining can change that. BA is being fined more for failing to invest in its IT platform than the pilots total pay claim. |
Many here say that public support is irrelevant. Public support will be zero. Public opposition will be huge. |
I'd venture to say most Nigel's aren't really bothered about the % as most of it will go to the taxman. Its down to respect and being acknowledged.
Can someone tell me the last time Aircrew went on strike in the UK? To get to this stage is pretty bad - a sign of the times |
Originally Posted by FACoff
(Post 10525513)
Short of increasing the freeze (entirely possible I suppose) I can't see them getting rid of bidding. BA aren't stupid - short haul would become a ghost town. ...
Roll on the strike. Not quite true as BA sell you "M&S sandwiches", but then EasyJet have a bigger range of UK airports to fly from. As a passenger in 'the regions' I see no need to use BA short-haul. A Dutch airline does quite well for me and they give me a free sandwich and drink. You guys are probably correct, why bother about public opinion. |
Originally Posted by Paul Lupp
(Post 10525979)
I may be a bit out of step with the majority here, but what makes anyone think that they are entitled to an annual pay rise? I've spent most of my working life in UK manufacturing engineering and have lost count of how many years went by without a payrise. If your employer is not making enough money, how do they find more to increase the wages bill? Sure it is annoying when those at the top of the organisation award themselves pay increases or other benefits whilst those doing the actual work get zero, but that's life. Same as the best way out is to find another,better paid job but if you cannot, then so be it, you just have to accept a fall in your standard of living. The rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer but a strike won't change things.
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The rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer but a strike won't change things |
Well done lads. Backing you all the way here. i dont give 2 hoots what the public or press say. the press I understand their anti union stance from way back when with the printers strikes, but its amazing too see the public say things like “well i dont get a pay rise so why should you!” if that person that said that, had a relative or friend that got a rise, they would say well done! But they cannot see how they have been conditioned to be against anyone getting a rise, thereby helping the shareholders drive every wage down. It would appear the balpa nec has got some metal now, hope we go the way of the RMT! |
Can someone please explain to me what the impending strike is about?
Is the rise on offer not inline with inflation? Have you been on a pay freeze and this is too little too late? Have management been giving themselves and other departments huge payrises but neglecting pilots? |
Originally Posted by Paul Lupp
(Post 10525979)
If your employer is not making enough money, how do they find more to increase the wages bill?.
This when the loss was only a couple of hundred million. So by your rules Paul the pilots should be asking for around... shall we say 50%? |
pilotchute, I only speak for myself but for me it’s not % or money. Yes I want to see the value of my contract preserved if not improved but it’s about having a life for me. Rostering, workload, duty credit, EASA FTL’s. Rostering minimum rest at home and 6 day blocks followed by only 2 days off. Ops knowingly ignoring agreements in the hope you don’t challenge them. I don’t want more money, I want more time and if I can have more time then i’ll take money to buy myself some time. |
Originally Posted by NoelEvans
(Post 10526167)
When I was checking in for a BA short-haul flight some time ago I heard this comment from a fellow passenger in the queue: "BA short-haul is now just EasyJet where the pilots wear caps".
Not quite true as BA sell you "M&S sandwiches", but then EasyJet have a bigger range of UK airports to fly from. As a passenger in 'the regions' I see no need to use BA short-haul. A Dutch airline does quite well for me and they give me a free sandwich and drink. You guys are probably correct, why bother about public opinion. Also, you might find that the average earnings of an EZY Captain far exceed those of their BA equivalents. Which goes some way to explaining the dissatisfaction amongst the BA pilot workforce... |
pilotchute
Can someone please explain to me what the impending strike is about? At a regional base I was even offered a pay cut. Alongside all of this a continual cutting of terms and conditions and benefits down to ridiculous minutiae. As my esteemed colleague Wiggy points out - the company has now been "saved" and billion pound profits are in (and forecast).... It's payback time. |
BA
BloodY AwefuLL stays Bloody AwefuLL ! Pray 4 a HArd BREXIT !
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The 'public support' line always amazes me. The last time I checked, Tube drivers didn't have huge public support but seemed to do okay with their industrial action. We're employees of a large airline making record profits whilst giving a highly average management massive bonuses on the back of a decade of reductions to our Ts&Cs; why do we need the support of the public to sort out our industrial dispute? It boggles my mind the amount of my colleagues that take that red herring seriously.
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Originally Posted by sarmonkey
(Post 10526799)
The 'public support' line always amazes me. The last time I checked, Tube drivers didn't have huge public support but seemed to do okay with their industrial action. We're employees of a large airline making record profits whilst giving a highly average management massive bonuses on the back of a decade of reductions to our Ts&Cs; why do we need the support of the public to sort out our industrial dispute? It boggles my mind the amount of my colleagues that take that red herring seriously.
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The public have a pretty short memory about most strikes. Ok, we all remember the “Green Goddesses” but does anyone hold any grudges against the Fire Service? BA cabin crew went on strike a few years back but passengers seem to enjoy their service (and also enjoy complaining about it to me at dinner parties!) While I’m acutely conscious that ‘the public’ pay my wages, I’m not overly concerned about their perception of the rights or wrongs of this strike, if indeed it happens. I don’t expect any sympathy but the more enlightened amongst them will recognise that there must be good reasons for us to have got to this point. BALPA press releases can go a long way to educate people about the historical background and economic realities behind the BA pilots’ frustrations. |
Out of interest, i hear it can be 3-5yrs short haul command, what would the total gross be of a skipper short haul with such seniority? i hope we are turning a corner with balpa, strike at ba, ballot at ryr, it appears finally they are getting some balls! |
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