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Originally Posted by Twiglet1
(Post 10564348)
Noel - The CAA had plenty of meeting's in the run up with the major AOC's (and BALPA were there) and most of them had scheduling agreements managing the excesses, or their FRMS managed it. I personally don't know any AOC's that work 7 E/L/N to the excess of EU FTL - I stand to be corrected however. In my experience the biggest change to Pilots with EU FTL is whereas under CAP371 if they sold days off they would likely get these days off replaced to manage the 7/14/28/84 day limits - not the case now with the ERRP.
What is worrying is that (from wiggy's comment) it appears that BA Short Haul has poor Ts&Cs/scheduling agreement protection against EASA's 'Fatigue Target Limits'. I would see that as a bigger concern than pay -- unless higher pay is a way of being able to afford part-time work to be able to create one's own protection from those dreadful FTLs. As far as the 'collateral damage' that Plastic787 mentions, my travel arrangements are all to avoid using BA in favour of other airlines that provide that provide a nicer and more reliable service: When flying on holiday out of LHR I do not use BA short-haul to connect there as I have seen far too often where BA cancels their short-hauls whenever there are any problems at LHR. BA's handling of this present situation has firmed up my feelings on that and I am sure will taint the views of others, so maybe that 'collateral damage' is a bigger damage than BA management perceive? I am not too sure that this will help other Pilots in the industry in general: If BA management make it an unattractive place to work then Pilots will not be so keen to move there which will mean that other airlines will not have the same worry regarding Pilots moving on, with the effect that that has on Ts&Cs. |
Originally Posted by NoelEvans
(Post 10567392)
Twiglet1, About your comment "... most of them had scheduling agreements managing the excesses, or their FRMS managed it", 'most' is a long way from 'all' and FRMSs vary significantly, where the 'cheapest off the shelf' could be almost irrelevant to airline operations. The idea of FTLs is that the FTLS are the ultimate protection against Fatigue, not that something that could be commercially influenced (scheduling agreements or FRMSs) are having to be relied on as the ultimate protection. (About the 'work 7' days; I have done so under EASA FTLs: 7 consecutive days work totalling 45 hrs 30 mins duty, but with nearly 180 hrs free of duty before that and about the same after, as I have a "Ts&Cs protection" against the long-term extremes of EASA's FTLs)
What is worrying is that (from wiggy's comment) it appears that BA Short Haul has poor Ts&Cs/scheduling agreement protection against EASA's 'Fatigue Target Limits'. I would see that as a bigger concern than pay -- unless higher pay is a way of being able to afford part-time work to be able to create one's own protection from those dreadful FTLs. As far as the 'collateral damage' that Plastic787 mentions, my travel arrangements are all to avoid using BA in favour of other airlines that provide that provide a nicer and more reliable service: When flying on holiday out of LHR I do not use BA short-haul to connect there as I have seen far too often where BA cancels their short-hauls whenever there are any problems at LHR. BA's handling of this present situation has firmed up my feelings on that and I am sure will taint the views of others, so maybe that 'collateral damage' is a bigger damage than BA management perceive? I am not too sure that this will help other Pilots in the industry in general: If BA management make it an unattractive place to work then Pilots will not be so keen to move there which will mean that other airlines will not have the same worry regarding Pilots moving on, with the effect that that has on Ts&Cs. Another poster mentioned BA crews had done 7 early duties on the bounce so I made an apology and swift exit. |
Originally Posted by Plastic787
(Post 10567137)
Collateral damage, Beamer. It’s unfortunate but this is a fight that absolutely has to happen. If management manage to tear up all industrial agreements at BA (and that is their clear aim) you just watch the rest of the industry fall to pieces. This is a fight that is a long time now in the making but one that has (apart from a few scabs) almost absolute unity amongst the workforce. The rest of the industry will thank us for it afterwards. |
They might be the reason we exist, Beamer but we’re not a charity. It’s important to remember that. Why is it important that BA maintain Terms & Conditions? Because traditionally BA have hoovered up crews from other airlines, in part forcing them to up their game to at least some extent. If there’s nowhere left for people to go because BA terms and conditions have fallen below an aspirational level (and this process is happening already) then other airlines are emboldened to go after theirs with greater tenacity too. |
As a mere pax, part of the "collateral damage" described above, I'd just like to state my total support for the pilots in this dispute. That is all.
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Those familiar with the "dispute" in Australia in 2011 will note many themes similar.
Olivia Wirth, the ever charming Qantas PR porte parole, mouthed that Qantas pilots (paraphrasing) "demanded massages and first class travel" Ever the one to leave out pertinent detail, she neglected to mention that "massages" could be had in first class lounges and that Qantas pilots on duty travel asked for lounge access. First Class travel is something many airlines give to senior employees and unfortunately for Qantas PR that includes senior pilots (Captains) So expect more of the same, after all it is the same IR playbook. Pulling back the curtain though, their threats are hollow. They make close to zero operating revenue from their desk and they know it... |
BA pilots deserve the support of the industry. Whilst their airline may have fallen from grace over the past few years their T&Cs remain something of a benchmark. These have been chipped away at - pensions, PP34, removal of bidline and now salaries. All of our executives will be looking intently at what’s happening between BA and their flightdeck crew. I, for one, applaud their courage and resolution |
Originally Posted by Callsign Kilo
(Post 10568013)
BA pilots deserve the support of the industry. Whilst their airline may have fallen from grace over the past few years their T&Cs remain something of a benchmark. These have been chipped away at - pensions, PP34, removal of bidline and now salaries. All of our executives will be looking intently at what’s happening between BA and their flightdeck crew. I, for one, applaud their courage and resolution |
Originally Posted by moosepig
(Post 10567964)
As a mere pax, part of the "collateral damage" described above, I'd just like to state my total support for the pilots in this dispute. That is all.
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Cancellations
AND today BA cancels flights for the 27th to avoid paying compensation to passengers. What planet are this management on. I just cannot believe what is happening. Why do they think that pilots and passengers are so contemptible?
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Originally Posted by Callsign Kilo
(Post 10568013)
BA pilots deserve the support of the industry. Whilst their airline may have fallen from grace over the past few years their T&Cs remain something of a benchmark. These have been chipped away at - pensions, PP34, removal of bidline and now salaries. All of our executives will be looking intently at what’s happening between BA and their flightdeck crew. I, for one, applaud their courage and resolution Keeping crew happy is far cheaper than annoying them, and I applaud those who have taken the matter this far. Keep going, and the company has to back down in the end, it's in their interests to! |
The Sun: “British Airways pilots plot 10-day strike that would cost £400m in bid to ‘break’ the airline”British Airways pilots are plotting a ten-day mega strike that would ground much of its fleet and cost £400millionCredit: PA:Press Association An airline source told The Sun: “The disruption we have seen so far is nothing. The mega walkout would bring BA to its knees.” In response, British Airways could call in 150 volunteer pilots to tackle the ten-day walkout. Bosses will ask partner firms for the help to ensure flights are not grounded if the action goes ahead in November. Pilots staged a two-day, walkout this week costing the airline £80million in lost revenue. Yesterday BA began cancelling flights hit by a new strike due on September 27. Pilots union Balpa said the “inconsiderate” move was just to save on compensation. |
Originally Posted by NoelEvans
(Post 10567392)
SNIP ...... TUCK ..... I am not too sure that this will help other ..... Verbose, ill informed gibberish. I do hope you’ll forgive me for not quoting your entire essay. The B.A. pilots are on the right path, at the right time. |
Add another 100% supportive SLF here.
Looking in from the outside, all I see is an incompetent, greedy and bullying management, who have no respect for the people who are mission critical to their business. |
The funky open plan desks at Waterside do not tend to generate a dollar of operating revenue...
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Partner Airlines...... |
Four training Captains resigned yesterday. 10 days in November will place so many crews out of check that flying programme will not be covered Cruz knows his job is on the line Crews will begin to call sick due management pressure. Last time it ended tragically 1972 |
Seems to me that having cancelled all the flights on the 27th - then all the pilots should report for work on that day and ask where is my ‘plane. Just don’t tell management beforehand |
That would be quite funny, but I don’t think it’ll happen. I’m hearing that not only TC’s handing in their training positions but some mgrs doing the same. |
Originally Posted by DCS17
(Post 10568911)
Add another 100% supportive SLF here.
Looking in from the outside, all I see is an incompetent, greedy and bullying management, who have no respect for the people who are mission critical to their business. All over the world, these leeches derive salaries and add substantially to the cost structures and value add ZERO, although they see themselves as vital, for the drive down labor unit cost. With strategic assets (like pilots) eventually something gives. The administrative tail has wagged the airline dog for a few decades now. |
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