Norwegian VS Ryanair
 

Hey guys, here is my question;

As a 737 FO, more than 1000 on type and 3000 total, which one would you prefer to work for, Ryan or Norwegian??

- Salaries
- Type of contracts
- Roster
- Time to upgrade
- Various (uniforms, sims, ...)

Note: I´m too old to join BA

Ta!

Who would you rather represent?

With regards to who is better to work for, I would say it depends very much on your personal circumstances.

Ryanair will offer you permanent employment with a pension contribution and a fixed 5-4 roster with no scheduled overnights. If you live near a Ryanair base and you're lucky enough to be based at home, your quality of life increases enormously, however basing seems to be a little bit of a lottery with no guarantees and no seniority list to govern who goes where and when. Alternatively, I believe the option to work as a self employed contractor through McGinley is still available and there is plenty of info about this arrangement on here. Time to upgrade if you join meeting the requirements can be as little as 6 months, but the downside is that you will most likely have to move base upon completion and the base lottery starts all over again. You will have to cover all job related expenses, i.e. uniforms, license, medicals, transport, hotels and there is no crew food.

Norwegian is a different kettle of fish. You will be offered permanent employment, however it is permanent employment with an agency that is partially owned by Norwegian and salary, pension contributions etc are currently being negotiated with local unions. There aren't as many bases to choose from and Scandinavia is off limits for now, so you're looking at Helsinki, Rome, various Spanish bases and Gatwick. The company is heavily unionised and base allocation is based strictly on the Master Seniority List, so it may take a while to get your base of choice. The operation includes a fair amount of overnights and the roster is variable, published 1 month in advance and includes 12 days off per month. As far as command is concerned, expect at least 2 years and there is a tough evaluation process to get through before being accepted on a course. You have the option to go to long haul on the 787 if you wish, internal applicants get preferential treatment. All job related expenses are reimbursed, uniform and crew meals are provided. Job stability is less than at Ryanair, with redundancies having occurred in the winter for the last 2 years.

The differences in pay between the 2 companies are negligeable, it's much of a muchness, with Ryanair offering a slightly better deal as far as I know.

You are going "soft" mate ? or what. . . .


I too resisted responding really, having been kicked out from 1 for being "disloyal", (judgement still pending) & bullied by the other into paying up to keep the solicitors off my back for contentious postings in the past.


In any case, november.sierra pretty much summarised it, NAS a bit more "touchy/feely" (but it is all , in fact, a bit of a charade) & carries risks particularly as regards ongoing employment/command/base stability


Ryanair . . . well, how many threads can you read on here, how many days/weeks do you have to read them all.

Doubt if you would wish to spend your days there, but, with a decent base (meaning somewhere you live /or are happy to live , which happens to have a "human being" as a Base Capt ,some do , some don't) it is quite a pleasant way to amass experience whilst you figure out (or try to ) what is actually "better" at the moment (if you do, please let the rest of us know Eh ? ) for your next move.

Advantages are, "transparent" progression to Command, number of bases available (don't mention the system for acquiring one ) year round employment (see NAS employment history for Winter 2014 & 2015 ) no distraction from your professional responsibilities by permanently spending time on wifi :D

capfo,

I have just reread your original post.

I would imagine your priority , at this time, is seat swap. . . . .if that is the case, Ryanair are the simple solution. They need you, you need them. If I understand you need 2 Sims (so 12mths ) & if they are at the standard required you will enter the "Command" process.

Norwegian, well, a little less simple. A whole load of guys who didn't fancy pay -cut /base change to swap seats , who were pretty much "Command ready" in FR, bailed out & joined NAS in Spring 2014 with implied "rapid Commands". . . .it didn't pan out that way, DEC's were recruited continually, & some actually went back, disillusioned by the Salmon Pink Glasses they had donned. Base stability WILL affect you if you have your Command in FR, but, it will hit you even sooner if joining NAS as an FO, the last 2 Winters have seen lots of "enforced" changes, doubt this is likely to change.

I have spent the last 18mths or so , recommending FO's to join FR in preference to NAS, if you had told me this 4 years ago I would have asked that you (or I ) be certified , how times/things change.

Up to a few years ago NAS would have been the undisputed choice between the two gigs; however things have changed and nowadays RYR is probably a better and more stable option.
Being able to choose one should avoid both of them.

November.Sierra said it more or less already.

Ryanair:
As a Captain(it seems they are short of them which is a good thing being a Captain ^^) it seems they are very keen to offer your first base choice in the contract. Be aware that they may change that without big notice and force you to move to a new base. So, make a wise choice(e.g. a big, medium one) base wise.

If you are tired of nightstops and this bloody 6/2 or even 7/2 with the occasional 4 days in a row/month then Ryanair is the place to be. Preferably on the Ryanair contract as the "agency"(yes, it is still there, is even being offered during interview) one makes you most likely to be a "jumper".

Typerating is now finally paid by the company, only have to sign a bond(25.000 Euro/5 years). If you get something better, no big deal without paying a TR upfront.

Norwegian: Don't know really much about them but what I recently heard about them would not make me want to go there.
Got a look at the UK 787 contracts and honestly, it is avery poor paid job(Capt.787). And for that I have to do longhaul, destroy my sleep pattern and hang around again in hotels? Naa.
Norwegian 737? NO idea? Might be better, doubt it.

I guess the old saying is still valid. Both Norwegian and Ryanair will treat you like sh*t, but Ryan will be honest about it and Norwegian will lie to you and blow sunshine up your rear end. I am always puzzled by november.sierra's posts, he is either a firm believer in lies and evil propaganda or part of the degenerate handful of people that produces them. How is being heavy unionized a bad thing?(even if Norwegian is not). If the MSL did work as intended, you could actually partially have a life, as you would have more base stability instead of being shuffled around Europe like trash.

RTO, I'm neither a believer in evil propaganda, lies, nor am I part of the degenerate handful of people that produces them, as you so eloquently put it. I merely present facts and leave people to make up their own mind.

FYI, I never said that the airline being heavily unionised is a bad thing, quite the opposite, at least there is a voice, there is representation and the MSL does work as intended, so you clearly don't know what you're talking about and my guess is that you definitely don't fly aeroplanes with a red nose for a living.

Yes, base stability is an issue, and it is an issue in both airlines. Seasonal demands dictate this, and neither of the 2 airlines is perfect in this regard. Again, all I'm doing is presenting facts and people have to make up their own minds considering which best suits their personal circumstances. In the words of US senator Daniel Moynihan: everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts! Once again, all I do is provide facts as numerous people have acknowledged on this very thread.

Been on both gigs so I'll try to sum it up as close as I can.
1) same ****
2) same lie
3) different uniform

november.sierra: Do you really think the MSL work as intended when you have to quit your permanent position in Scandinavia and accept a mediocre contract with a dubious agency, if that MSL privilege is to be exercised? Termination of insurances an pension was not part of the MSL idea.

Couldn't be more accurate!
:D

Fact is, whether we like it or not, that the powers that be have decided there is to be no further expansion in Scandinavia for the time being. This initially put K-area FO's in a difficult situation as there was no chance for command. Now the company, in accordance with the MSL, has decided that any K-area FO eligible for command upgrade, can be upgraded provided that they resign and instead sign an OSM Euro base contract. Base allocation as per MSL.

The fact that there's no expansion in Scandinavia is something the unions or the MSL have no control over, so at least upgrades are being done in accordance with the MSL. Previously, there was NO upgrades for K-area FO's and the only upgrades being done were Euro bases, FACT.

The MSL brings nothing to the table. If a K-area FO wanted to quit the company and seek employment in another airline abroad, he could do just that.

Hey guys,

Does anyone have any information about the current situation regarding employment in Norwegian during winter season?
I read that in 2014 and 2015 they gave an ultimatum to a lot of pilots to either take an unpaid leave or quit the company... Did the same happen this winter? Have they undertaken any strategies to improve the situation?
Thanks for any replies!

Nothing is being done to remedy the situation. During winter the operation is run with an extreme shortage of crew. In summertime they trick people into signing 2 year contracts for LGW and tell them on the first day that its gonna be 6 months in Oslo instead. Come winter you are all fired again.

Fantastic news.... So did the same happen this winter?
Why are they recruiting now if they have been laying people off for half a year for the past 3 years???

It's just the third miscalculation by the crew planners. Don't worry it won't happen again.

I doubt it is an "honest mistake" by the Crew Planners, and would be more inclined to believe it has been (repeatedly) another cynical attempt to recreate a facet of the "Ryanair model", that rather ironically, Ryanair are themselves slowly moving away from.

If it was just that, a simple miscalculation, the company would have in all likelihood bit the bullet, picked up the tab, and kept people employed over Winter . . . . there was no miscalculation here, believe me. :=

If they are recruiting now, the TR courses will probably start in September, until people are qualified it would be November.
So here is my question again, because I cannot get my head around that: what's the point of hiring now to put new FO's on the line in late autumn if the airline has the strategy of laying people off in winter?

...and they are about to sign a deal with FTE Jerez to take on their cadets as well as the self sponsored TR scheme they recently opened up. WTF is the long term thinking here???? :ugh:

At least the Irish are honest and they even put the winter shafting in your contract

Yeah but what I've heard in Ryanair it's only a month rather than 6 months in Norwegian... (please correct me if I'm wrong)
On the other hand I think if one flies approx 800 hrs a year, a month off is a nice break for holidays.

Does anyone have any information on how many pilots Norwegian has and how many have been laid off for winter?

None of them?

As an FTE cadet who would you prefer to work for?

In Norwegian they are more polite and treat you a bit better but they are quite disorganized at the moment and training might take for ever. In Ryanair they are better organized for training and the command upgrade is certainly quicker but they treat you like a number with almost no respect.

SierraEchoCharlie "As an FTE cadet who would you prefer to work for?"


Well, history suggests the choice is fairly straightforward & it doesn't just apply to Cadets, equally applicable to experienced FO's looking for a "structured" / "transparent" path to Command, permanent year round employment, and some Base stability.

The last 2 Winters NA(?) . . . too many permutations to enter the last letter . . . . has layed pilots off / forced some to take unpaid leave / forced some to take 50% work / told others (who had paid for the TR with them ) to come back in 6mths or pay the Bond NOW ! / changed bases for many who were quite happy in their European mainland base due to reduced production ( a Winter in the Canaries is very pleasant, but it didn't suit many who commute ) / changed during their OCC the bases/ contracts/ type of employment they thought they had just signed for from Spain/ Gatwick to Scandinavia . . . . sign here or leave the course being the 2 options on offer / changed agencies & threatened those who didn't appreciate the "new kid on the block" with termination due to their obvious wish not to continue their career in Norwegian :yuk: even though they are not actually employed by Norwegian/ Introduced a new AOC & associated system that has completely failed to roster/train/organise the flying programme with anything approaching the level enjoyed by Contractors operating under the "NAS" regime up in Norway. Allowed (nay encouraged I would wager ) their preferred pilot "employer" to issue bullying emails as regards providing documentation, satisfying Govt agencies etc during their own time, with the implied or actual threat of dismissal if anyone dissented.


Meanwhile, Ryanair, whilst not exactly on a charm campaign, have continued to provide year round employment , base stability (unless you are at one of the mercifully few bases that are a bit "seasonal") roster stability, & transparent /rapid progression to Command. Yes there are more (false ) smiles from Fornebu, but I prefer an honest scowl to a two-faced stab in the back by a "smiling assassin".

The choice (as Cilla Black used to say ) is yours, &, I am shocked to find myself suggesting that Blue / Yellow may be a better choice than Red/White, but, as the "Norwegian Way" rears it's ugly head now the constraints of the Scandinavian employment model have been well & truly cast aside, my recommendations of 4 years ago (which I followed) are turned on their head. Inflight wifi is fine, but it loses its sheen when, via this medium, you find out 4 hrs into a 5hr sector that you appear to have been summarily dismissed for publishing truthful (Oh dear can't have that := ) comments on here & the company internal forum during the pilot strike (without the simple courtesy being extended of someone actually contacting you , to inform you of the fact)

Freemasonic sycophants, if thats what floats your boat, good luck with it.

My 10 cents having dealed with Norwegian Recruitment(agency) and doing the Ryanair Interview(DEC, passed).

Captainplaystation is quiet "spot on" with his post. I personally had as well so mayn promises and false smiles when I joined some outfits just to discover that my contract is not worth the paper it is written on(this includes ALL ME carriers, as most of you are anyway aware of. Still remember my QR contract...).

Surprisingly, and very refreshing, the Ryanair guys did nothing like that on my interview, they told me which contract options are available, differences, bases, salary , benefits(lol). I knew most of it but it is nice that nobody tries to sell you the airline. Even the HR guys asked if we understood everything because he does NOT want to have anyone pissed off upon joining because they thought and expected something different.

I like that. That's why I joined and that's why as well I cancelled my application with Norwegian(even before I passed the RYR interview because for them I would not leave my old employer).

If someone is up for the risk not having a job over the winter season just for the chance to fly a bloody 787, well, then they are maybe worth a shot. I have different "needs" (permanent contract, relativ safe base - of course if you choose one of the smallest ones then don't complain if they close it down, being home every night, relativ good pay for a Captain).

Interesting experience. If I were you I wouldn't expect that kind of open attitude to remain after you have actually started working... Just a heads up!

Stay away from Nas/Nai this is a complete disaster everything have changed in two years . Much better to try Ryr at least they don't lie you . Much more stable and serious company .

..if year round employment means sitting on 3-4 unpaid standbys per working block .


On a serious note, you can approach that dilemma in many ways. Budget on X amount of hours per year and plan your life accordingly. However, the range of hours flown in different bases per year could vary significantly.

Regarding Norwegian is there safer bases to be at regarding forced leave in winter months. I know a few new cadets and the bases that are being talked about for them include : BCN, AGP , TFS
Are these bases "safer" or a disaster for the winter months?
Appreciate any information from insiders

Basically, no (in my opinion). It has always been the last joiners that have been 'fired' for the winter, first time around it was 3 months. This year they had the wonderful opportunity to have 6 months, so you may be in any base due to 'production' needs and still be turfed out when they deem you to be surplus to requirements.

Will that happen this year? Who knows but as they promised that after the first time it was a special case I know what I think will happen.

Unfortunately for us, the author of post #28 has been saying it like it is for a long time.....

If you are in TFS or LPA Winter is no problem, but less production in Summer, so maybe you have to change base. If you are in BCN , AGP , ALC & you are most junior, expect to spend Winter in the Canaries. LGW/HEL (MAD/FCO ? ) stable year-round production, but, as stated above, if you are most recent entry, don't worry about base change, worry about having some unwanted unpaid leave (or if you are lucky 50% pay cut :})

Plus no payment when on deadhead flights , no payment during traning (only ground school), no payment increase ( you'll be earing the same after 5,6... years ), no CLA, no union recognition, hotels quality getting worse, Irish crew control a complete disaster ...

Worked in both. Left both. Norwegian, in my opinion, was streets of ahead Ryanair ahead even with its ""issues".

Would have agreed with you in 2012, but the gap has narrowed considerably, and in some respects has opened up, but in favour of the "real" Irish carrier.

It's not Nas anymore nowadays Nai/OSM rules the circus ,everything changed six month ago .

@Kulito ; Are you working for NAI ? What are the chances of winter lay offs again this year??
Regards SAR

Nobody knows just let get closer to winter time to see what happen, last two years they have being doing it.