-There are even some pilots who don´t speak german at all.
-I think the Assessment is mainly in german, but I guess you will get some help if you don´t understand it.
-I guess you salary would be somewhere around 55-60k.

Hello,

I work for AL since 2009, regarding the screening I don't remember a lot. On day one, the most important part is the dinner, some applicants believe that it is not part of the assessment, but that is not true! If you have in the next morning your sim at six or seven o'clock, I would recommend you not to stay until midnight and drink the whole evening. Most candidates think that the dinner is not part of the whole process, but have in mind that these hours during dinner give the recruitment team an idea who you really are!
The sim is pretty straight forward, you fly approximately 45-60 minutes in a 737CL or NG, depending which sim is available. As far as I remember, the expectations for persons with an 737 Rating are higher, but the programm is still the same. You'll make an raw data takeoff without A/T and climb on runway heading to e.g. 5000ft, there after some airwork followed by a NDB Approach and a single engine ILS Approach, it's not really complicated. If you pass, you will go straight to your interview, where you spend another hour. That's it.

If your German is good enough, I wouldn't be worried too much about it. But yes, the whole screening is in german, if you have any questions do not hesitate to ask. They will help you.

Regarding the salary, I really hope that your expectations are not too high. We have lost plenty of SFOs to Norwegian, but you can negotiate because they need people. We get two more airplanes, one is coming in July and one in September, I heard that there is a third unit in the pipeline! They lowered the requirements to upgrade all the FOs to captains. It's just a rumor, but they might have to take DEC because we don't have any experienced pilots in the right seat, so maybe you are in a better position.

Good luck

55.000€ gross for an experienced FO on a widebody B777 that costs 300 Millions ?
That is 2650€ net after tax and social security.
That's what an elementary teacher in Germany makes, right after university.

That must be the worst 777 pay ever!? But wait, it's a heavy:/

I think thats one of the problems with this profession nowadays. People look at the aircraft instead of proper terms and conditions :(. Just my 2 cents anyway

Thanks BillBoeing. Wow, that salary is attrociously low. How many 777s do you have these days? Do you guys have decent layovers in nice places or are you operating on min-rest in barren outposts in Central Asia?

Also, is there a natural tension between you guys and the LH Cargo folks or is it a respectful relationship?

No doubt, the salary is low, and it doesn't matter if you come out of the screening and negotiate 60 or 65k Euro per year, finally it's your choice. I've never heard of a triple seven operator who pays less. And to make it clear, we never received a bonus, except in the first year and there is no pension scheme, just a LOL and an annual salary increase of 2.700,- Euros.
We know that the company is making a lot of money for DHL and Lufthansa Cargo, unfortunately they don't like to share with us.
But as mentioned in previous posts, there are a few other things that I like and enjoy:
1. 15 days off every month. So, comparing to other triple seven or longhaul operators I do have a private life and enjoy my life. When I return home there are plenty days to recover. I have friends who work in the dessert, but none of them has 5 or 6 days off after an flight. The company could plan you for two extra days (13 days off), but as a captain you get 700,- Euros/day. This is the reason why they usually don't do it.
2. in the last 5 years I flew not more than 600 hours/year. So expect 50-70 hours in average.
3. All hotels where we stay are 5 star and in the city Centre or at the beach (LAX),Breakfast and Internet is included. Layovers vary with the destination. You can expect minimum 24-72 hours in most places, except of LAX where you stay from Sunday to Friday ( 5 days).
4. we have a request system where you can request one flight and four days off, so if you plan to be at home for your son's birthday, just request your off days or plan a flight before of it.
5. 20% of your basic salary is tax free up to a certain amount (20.000,-Euro/year)
6. Part time is possible and taken by a lot of pilots, you can request up to six months a year or sign for a permanent part time contract (75% or 50%).
7. The operation itself is very relaxed, just close the door on time and enjoy flying, no unruly passengers, no ATC slots, no missing bags....As long as you stay with the SOPs there is nothing to be concerned about.
8. Homebase is Leipzig, but we do have flights out of FRA or returning to FRA. In this case the company pays all travel expenses (Hotel, Flight, Car....)
9. if we proceed deadhead with other airlines and flight time is longer than 4 hours (which is in most cases) you get a business ticket.

@Iver No, there are no tensions between us and LH pilots. At some places, we stay in the same hotel (PVG). So it happened many times that we went out for dinner together, we noticed that we are sitting in the same boat, so they don't have any problem with us. At the moment we operate 8 Freighter, but as already mentioned we get two more till September, coming from DHL and not from Lufthansa. We start with Tokio and South America operation in September and October, we take that flights from the MD11 LCAG. There are some rumors about JFK,ATL and IAH.
Currently, some sectors are operated by two men crew and not three or four, this will last until the end of the year. The toughest flight with two men is most probably the night flight from HKG to DXB. Due to the new FTLs, some flights are operated with four crew members instead of three.

That's it!

Thanks for your insider knowledge

Do many pilots live in LEJ, or is commuting from within DE common? I guess with the days off in a row it should be fairly easy.

Which units do you expect to receive from DHL, any 757/767 coming your way?

Cheers

Why do you think any 757/767 would go to AL?
Non of them are going to AL, they stay where they are, AL is only operating 777 on behalf of DHL, thats it.

Does anyone know more about Stage 1 Hoehnerbach Assessment ?

Cheers guys!

Anyone willing to share some more detailed information with me eg. rosters, commuting options and so on, would be highly appreciated!?

I am desperate to get an insider`s view to make up my mind if it is worth going there or not...

Heard rumors off them perhaps dropping German requirement, anyone who can confirm this?

Thanks

I don't think so since they have a family and want to know their people like friends. they have lots of very good applicants who all fail.

Hi there,

all my previous posts about AL are still up to date. Company is still recruiting a lot of FOs, last year more than 60 people and this year most probably another 60 pilots. It’s not official, but a lot of rumors about more airplanes to arrive, coming from Lufthansa Cargo.
In general, commuting is possible, we have pilots living in Italy, Switzerland, Netherlands and Austria.
AFAK, german is still a requirement, it’s a german company, so what do you expect?

Except for a few individuals who were hired at the beginning, who came in with lots of relevant on type experience, fluency in german language is a hard requirement. That doesn't necessarily mean native speaker level but you should be able to hold a conversation

As for the company, flying gets more interesting apparently, bunch of good people there, rosters are good for the most part and make commuting possible, just know that at the end of the seniority list even with the current expansion it will take anyone lots of years to progress and all that while earning sub standard money.

Hi Guys,

Any updates on the assessment (especially Hoehnerbach Test)?

I think the pay is better at CV, but the roster at AL is one of the best of the industry from what I have seen (and I have seen some SO & FO rosters).

It depends on what you want.

Hi there,

it depends what you want. If you are looking for a decent salary and a pension, take Cargolux ( btw flying a B747 is also a good argument). If you prefer a stable roster with 15 days off every month, max. 600 hrs/year... AL is not a bad option!
In both cases, you work and live in Europe and this is in my opinion a very strong argument to choose one of them.

@DEEC We have so many new guys coming from Ryanair, SunExpress or Easyjet, they are all very welcome and they are very happy with Aerologic, so what do you say about it?

BB, they guys from SunExpress are from SXD right? Or also fron SXS?

They are coming from both companies, some of them straight from Turkey and some pilots from SXD.

Def. Aerologic, full access to LH-ID system and a much more valuable Rating. But i would join Norwegian as well directly and skip those.....

I don’t get it, what is your point? Did I ever say that we have any mainline pilots from LH or BA? Why should they join AL? Why should any U.S. pilot join a German company in Europe? We have pilots coming from Austrian Airlines, Emirates, Alitalia or Singapore, most of them were Commander before they joined AL.
Yes, we lost a great bunch of Senior First Officers to Norwegian, but some of the pilots regret it. Did you read how much money Norwegian lost last year? I don’t think that Norwegian is a better gig comparing to AL, but it’s my personal opinion.

I thought it was German speaker mandatory for all pilots. All these pilots coming from alitalia, Emirates, ... They were all speaking German ? Or it is not mandatory in real ?

Thank for the answer ?

@Flocks

They are all native speakers except of the Alitalia people, some of them still refuse to speak german in the flight deck, a few other understand most words, but in general, german is still a requirement.

@gnalberg

Just do me a favor and read my previous posts, I never said that AL is the best longhaul Operator in the world, but as an former expat I can assure you that it’s not a bad deal, especially when you are getting older! Yes, we have discussed the money issue so many times in the past, but why don’t you stick with the facts. Starting salary for a second officer coming straight from flight school (22 years old) is 40.000 Euros, just for pushing the MIC Button. Show me a non-aviation job in Germany where your starting salary at the beginning of your career is higher? if you join the company as experienced copilot the wages are higher. The SFOs going to DY were promised a quick upgrade and except of one person, NONE of them is in the upgrading, waiting now for two years, surprise surprise!
By the way, the profit loss was 38 Million E last year, but you are absolutely right, it’s not your money, so who cares if a company is loosing money, as long as you get your payslip at the end of the month:D

I agree with you about it, no Job is perfect and yes If i had to say something in my company I would pay better, but that’s life, I am not responsible for the T&Cs.

Take care

I would also be careful about the fact that AL is a company flying for two groups (DHL and LH). DHL is growing for years now and they made up plans for the next decade. LH has also it's own cargo business. I wouldn't feel too good in that situation since it is often the case that AL would be the first to be ceased in case of difficulties. Salaries at AL are low for the type of ops and it can be frustrating to meet the guy's next door earning more money (DHL crews). I've met some AL captains in Leipzig and some of them are really special. But I guess it is like this pretty much everywhere... I would go for Norwegian if I had to choose.

AL is a joint venture of LH and DHL

@BillBoeing

Maybe check your sources and don't believe everything that MOS is feeding you.

-Of all the people that have left AL for DY, only two of them are longer in the company than two years and both have passed their first upgrade to RCA and are on track to become captains soon.

-Everyone else has so far exactly gotten what has been promised to them in the interview (with respect to the upgrade), it might take them 3-4 months longer than expected but that was due to the delay in training until final line check. Which was fully paid by the way including per diems from the first day

-Just to give you a little comparison, as an RCA you earn 100k€ (or lots more if you sell OFF Days which is now really lucrative) which is higher than the highest FO step in the salary scale (and 45% higher than what I earned after 7 years) which is basically unreachable except for the few individuals who have been hired into it from the beginning. Oh and nobody in DY sleeps in a trailer on the parking lot or in a smelly cellar room next to trash because they can't afford to pay for a hotel and the taxi ride at night.

This might sound like I hated my time at AL, I actually enjoyed it and look back to lots of good memories but having been one of the guys who where on the receiving end for years when it came to career progression and who owned the sad title of being the lowest paid SFO worldwide on a B777 I definitely don't regret having made the move to a different airline, not one little bit.

Dear Parkbremse,

First of all you don’t know me, so plz. stop putting me in a line with MOS, I have nothing to do with him and I don’t belong to the inner circle, it’s so easy! Also, I am little older than you and know the life.
Do you like commuting to LGW? If yes, than it’s fine for you, but I also have my sources, some guys regret their decision.
I bet you came to AL as copilot with not more then 1000 hrs on a turboprop or BAe Jet, why did you sign the contract if the money was low for you? I Know exactly what kind of person you are, always complaining and never happy with anything (money,hotels, catering,roster....)
Regarding the sleeping opportunities, in general spoken what is so wrong about it if a company is providing sleeping places? I wished I had been offered something similar when I was a young copilot and had to drive back home the whole night. On the other hand, how does it come that you see young pilots driving expensive cars but not willing to pay 45,- Euros for an accomodation?

So, it doesn’t make any sense to discuss with a person like you who is always frustrated, I guess i have an idea who you are, so none of us is missing you in the flight deck!

That’s it, I’m done with you!

This is amazing, you don´t know me ....... but I know you.

Come on, lets face the truth, the money at AL is crap and and people come to AL because of the a/c, its the lowest paid wide body job in Europe.

And you have to tell the full story, people from AZ, EY or EK joined about 7-8 years ago when they were hired as DEC or fast command and OS guys bypassed all the SFOs and were hired as DEC on top of the pay scale.

If you are happy at AL, great, but its a low salary airline offering P2F time to time.

Bill, well you jump to interesting conclusions without knowing me and whether you guys miss me or not is really not of my concern.

I don't like the commuting to LGW of course. I didn't like commuting to LEJ either though. It's because I don't like commuting in the first place but I do it because I value living at home much more and then thats a price to pay. Interestingly the money I pay now for commuting is almost the same as I paid on average commuting to LEJ but honestly, I will take London, Paris, Barcelona, Rome or any scandi city anytime over Leipzig but thats of course a personal preference.

But if it fits your mental picture and makes you feel better that we are unhappy and regret our decision to move along than thats ok, we have already heard the rumors about us and its always good for a laugh when we meet at the Costa or somewhere else in the world before we move along to different topics.

Also and to be a little more on topic, I always said that AL is not a bad job, rosters are nice for the most part and you will in general have a good time in the flight deck but without the rose tinted specs it looks like this:

- the ratio of cpts to sfo/fo is skewed, has always been so one can not expect a high amount of upgrades with even two or three more aircraft coming. Sure there will be some but I would assume its in the region of 10-12 people.

-As a large number of copilots are with the company for years and many have already reached the hour requirement and most will reach it within 1 or 2 years, meaning that a new FO at the bottom of seniority can now expect to sit in the right hand seat for 10 years+. Also, a significant portion of captains is fairly young (40s or younger)

-As entry salary is low and the progression of salary is slow, you will in that time progress to a salary level a little higher than what NLH pays for a First Officer in the first year. That can change of course but it would take a really significant adjustment upwards to make the salary competitive and that includes cpts salaries.

If thats ok for you, then apply and join should you make it through the selection. If you have doubts though it might be a good idea to look elsewhere, there is lots of opportunities now, Norwegian being just one of many.

I don’t want to engage in any personal discussion because frankly I don’t have a dog in this fight. Neither Airline is perfect. However, 20-30 pilots from one have moved further west, 0 Pilots moved the other way.

This is all public info but to save you from Googleing:

- There was a PAY2FLY program via BAA Baltic Aviation. Complete strangers wearing the uniform etc... paying to sit in a 777.

- There was an engine failure over the Atlantic and a return single engine all the way back east german base.

- Union recognition and transparent, equal employment terms and conditions among the pilots are vehemently fought against by management, using all kinds of interesting „strategies“ to keep the „sheep in line“.

8 years ago there was a real chance, it could’ve have been a great, fun place to work, that chance was destroyed for the benefit of fery few.

A good sum up: It has more in common with East Germany than just location. Look back 25 years and you’ll get it.

Simple sum up: the terms and conditions are not really the main discussing point. If you're expecting a normal, german airline you will be surprised what is possible :(

Plus
B777
Germany
Hotels downroute
Deadheading over 4 hours in Business Class
ID Travel
LOL
Very many really nice guys working there
Duties starting in FRA means company pays for ticket from home and hotel in FRA so no commuting cost
Bar of chocolate or coffee mug as christmas "bonus" :rolleyes:

Neutral
15 days off (sounds great and would be if the duties were "normal", however be prepared to C/I at 4AM, then fly two legs LEJ-DXB-HKG, back the same but through the night, it is A KILLER!!!)
Mostly very high standard pilots, good standardised training (of course there are some random ex emirates checkers who forget to fly the plane while focused on/quoting some OM-A rules but in general harmless)
Good ops support
Bidding system (1x 4days off in a row, 1 trip, but intransparent, at the sole control of crewplanning)
The current DFO is a very knowledgeable guy that could really manage the place well but unfortunately he is only a "placeholder" for someone higher up without any power.

Minus
Get it done culture/Get-there-itis (Google Youtube: AeroLogic BOX506 777F - Typhoon NIDA)
Fatigue. Be prepared to be very tired and fly trips like LEJ-DXB-HKG, LEJ-BAH-BLR, FRA-ORD-LAX in one stretch (18+ hours duty through the night...)!
Low Pay
No Pension
No collective contract
Pay2Fly with weird guys who buy flight time in a 777
Backstabbers/"pretenders" who try to advance by ratting on their colleagues
Some colleagues have more "privileges" than "normal" guys.
No seniority protection, (upgrading requirements are changed as needed to fulfill "friends" requirements)
Based at LEJ but actually in the middle of nowhere in an office building off airport (no public transport available = $$$ for taxis)
Very "political", people who spoke up about anything (minor or major like safety, fatigue etc...) are reprimanded (rumours are that one pilot has been fired over nothing).
Fear culture, Intimidation
Brainwashed people
The generous 42 days holidays are worthless because each vacation day reduces your off days 2:1 (e.g. 15 days off + 15 days holiday does not mean you get 30 days off but only 22)!
Everything based only on working days/days off, no overtime threshold for productivity/block hours (e.g. a 7 day layover counts the same as two minimum rest trips)
Part time scam if you look at workload/block hours, basically you get 25% less pay for the same work: 100% = fly 3 trips a month plus one EU turn/sit SBY in LEJ @15 days off, 75% = fly 3 24h trips a month plus 1 EU turn @20 days off)

PJN states "German state pension" :confused:

In all fairness,

1. this is probably not the only reason you failed (they generally dont fail people for such things alone)

2. its not really a good example, it can be completely reasonable to take off below min FPL TOF, thats what Contingency Fuel is there for, whether you burn it on the ground or in the air doesn’t matter.

The state pension is mandatory, but very low in yield, actually it might be negative (you get less out than you pay in). So no, it is not a "real" pension.

gnarlberg, be a bit creative. It's absolutely legal to depart below FPL fuel. Get the aircraft on the way, try to save fuel enroute (levels, direct, lower CI...). If you cnnot make it to your destination with the required minimum fuel, land short for a tech stop, refuel and, FDL allowing, continue the flight. But at least you are on the way and the company might be able to organize something for you.
This is how it is handled in all longhaul outfits I know.

I know it's not always a clear cut case with definitions but ICAO Annex 6 "Operation of Aircraft" (4.3.6.3 ) specifically states:

So it is stated in an official ICAO document that contingency fuel can be used for before take-off.