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-   -   Norwegian - Last 36 pilots not needed during the winter. (https://www.pprune.org/terms-endearment/563834-norwegian-last-36-pilots-not-needed-during-winter.html)

liveview 1st Jul 2015 08:04

Norwegian - Last 36 pilots not needed during the winter.
 
Yet again this winter Norwegian has more pilots than needed, and the best solution they came up is leave of absence during at least 6 months or choose to be out the company for the guys hired during 2015, most of them still during line training.

Last winter there was 60 pilots with forced reduced rosters (25 to 50% salary), plus this 36 new pilots hired during 2015.

Hoping for a good solution for everybody.

slr737 1st Jul 2015 08:53

where did you get that information?

TypeIV 1st Jul 2015 08:59

The excuse was, if I recall it correctly that they had a surplus of crews due to a planning mistake last year.

Seems like the, mistake, has been repeated...

737aviator 1st Jul 2015 10:03

Pilots who joined at the beginning of this year have indeed been told their services are no longer required for the entire winter season.

172_driver 1st Jul 2015 10:10

What form of contract are they on? Self-employed or hired by an agency? Do they have any form of salary during times of not flying?

lear999wa 1st Jul 2015 10:41

I don't want to start a mud fight, but these guys and girls should have known better. They were recruited with the full knowledge of what happened last year. Buyers beware, before you sign on the dotted line with one of the Norwegian employment agencies.

Widebdy 1st Jul 2015 10:52

@lear partly true. However these guys claim they were given promises of a 2 year contract. They also claim they were never made aware they would be held in Scandinavia all summer and thereafter not get a base transfer into the euro area.

While the company can afford to throw millions at long haul they should be able to afford to carry a few pilots. The damage they have done to their reputation in the pilot community is very disappointing. I am aware some senior management pilots are very concerned that when they go to expand next year, the pile of CVs that NAS current hold will be fruitless. Experienced FO won't touch NAS until the command situation is sorted out and now inexperienced FO may feel they can't afford to invest in a type rating if they are going to be kicked out in the winter with no pay. It is not clear to those of us on the ground who is making these decisions!!!

It is also not a good idea in my opinion to be treating staff in this fashion while trying to get claim you should be allowed compete on the atlantic.

LNIDA 1st Jul 2015 12:57

Lets be clear from the off this situation is a long long way from ideal and carries potential recruitment problems for next year.

Most airlines need less crew during the winter months and have various methods of dealing with it, Norwegians bigger problem is that they need a huge number of new pilots next year 300+ probably beyond the training capacity of the airline, the thinking seems to be with the NTR guys that will be laid off over the winter is that with under 500 hours they are unlikely to get taken on by anyone else? i think the number is close to 60 pilots that will be 'parked' from the end of October until the end of March, some joined on a summer only contract. I reckon that 25% of that number will clear off never to return, but the other 45 will be back in April thats the equivalent of 5 or 6 courses that don't have to be done over the winter, but that still leaves the thick end of 250 pilots to recruit and train, thats still 30 course to cram in, so I suspect that recruitment will begin in Sept just as these pilots are being parked.

Cruel world out there buyer beware

Nearly Man 1st Jul 2015 13:45

Widebdy is right. After they said they wouldn't do this after last year to then turn around and do it again, well, just shows you what twits they are.

It's not the case as the previous poster said that these people should have known. Well no, they shouldn't because that's not what they were told when they joined.

Kirks gusset 2nd Jul 2015 13:24

Last year the pilots galvanised a lot of support from the pilot community in general and during the industrial action when they had the upper hand they rolled over and turned turtle, decisions based on empty promises, broken commitments and threats. This years new pilots went to this tampax operation with their eyes open and have paid the price for believing the serial killer smiles of the recruitment team and the management hype. I doubt very much the pilot community in general will give a rats ass about this now, as you say, they went in with their eyes closed! Nice early Christmas present, the company should think about their complete lack of morals and credibility when they sit down to the next management dinner or organise a hanger party for the chosen few..

No Fly Zone 2nd Jul 2015 17:09

Where is the Written Contract?
 
OMG! Not again. Anyone sharp enough to drive a transport class airplane OUGHT to be sharp enough to read an employment contract.:ugh: If the details are not to his/her liking, why do it? Take a walk and find far better options down the road. And of course... if it is not in writing, it simply ain't gonna happen. How many can reasonably expect to meet basic needs with sub-standard wages and working only half the year? With their reputation, I have to wonder how they manage to hire ANY pilots. :=:yuk:

Cliff Secord 2nd Jul 2015 20:41

It's simple. They'll only stop doing it when we stop falling for it. But we won't, there is no "we" with pilots anymore than there is a "we" with people who enjoy cinema or like the colour blue. It'll never happen. Time spent hoping people stop signing up is time wasted. This isnt rail. There is no powerful ASLEF. If anyone actually believes the job has a standing chance of being a reasonable option for life in this day then they're living in the cuckoo land of a current - eventually to be time expired - working agreement.

RTO 3rd Jul 2015 01:16

This is not about being sharp enough to read a contract. From what I've heard these chaps were given a signed 2yr contract for LGW. First day on conversion, the friendly flightops mngr. pops in to inform that they changed their mind, and its now a 6 month contract, and instead of LGW its in Scandinavia. This is of course after quitting their old airline and relocating to the London area. Contract will now not be extended. They have all been tricked into being summer temps while covering own accomodation expenses in the most expensive place on earth. I hope no one will show up for next years summer scam, as this is becoming a tradition for tampax airlines.

Googlebug 3rd Jul 2015 09:02

Is this on the 737 fleet or the 787 fleet.
I hope its not the same guys that were made redundant from the 73 and moved the 78.

deptrai 3rd Jul 2015 09:11

24 pilots with ARPI aviation contracts. No job, no salary, type rating debt remains...

At the same time OSM Aviation also sent out a friendly letter to some based in the UK and Spain, suggesting they take unpaid leave, or quit.

That's outrageous if it's true: no one is lying here.

highfive 3rd Jul 2015 09:34

Many many years ago , before i was a pilot, i was fired from my job. Just like that. It was painful, humiliating and embarassing. But i learnt my lesson.

Airlines have been recruiting hundreds of cadets, P2F and self sponsered 200 hour guys for quite a few years now. These pilots have not experienced redundancy, furlough, airline collapse overnight. The Y generation of wannabes dont read contracts . Why would you , life is so good and young inexperienced pilots are sought after everywhere. These guys have not suffered the pain . They have not learnt the hard way that in contracts , terms and conditions small print are as inportant as what shiney new type you may be flying next week.

As always buyer beware

deptrai 3rd Jul 2015 09:44

I did ponder the "tampax airlines" thing for a second, but the livery gives a cue. I couldn't resist: http://s28.postimg.org/l51uoa6dp/73417548.jpg

adwjenk 3rd Jul 2015 09:50

Non of the pilots laid off are long haul pilots, this situation only effects short haul 737 pilots.

Long haul have never forced pilots onto forced vacation.

MonarchOrBust 3rd Jul 2015 11:04

Some might say it's a used tampon. Others might say it's BK's nob after he's finished shafting all his pilots.

deptrai 3rd Jul 2015 11:55

yup the photographer who took that picture was talented.

viking767 3rd Jul 2015 14:52

Why not take the redundant 737 pilots and train them on the 787 like a decent company would do?

PT6Driver 3rd Jul 2015 16:17

Viking;

You have answered your own question there!

Cliff Secord 3rd Jul 2015 22:58

Deptrai.

The tampon comment on that photo wasn't what sprang immediately to my mind. Given his self satisfied expression plus the positioning of his hand says more along the lines of

"just look at my massive xxxx. Haven't I just got a huge xxxx? Hey everybody! come and see how big my xxxx is! I've just used this thing to sully and defile a whole lot of aircrew. Guess what! They still keep coming!"

Anybody who had suffered under the false hope of terms in the industry standing a chance for us grunts at the grinding wheel. Please take a look at "management Freudian sexual exhibit "A"" then exit the room in an orderly fashion. This is what you're up against.

deptrai 3rd Jul 2015 23:10

a caption competition for that photo would probably result in a lot of references to shafting, or..."You'd better wake your bloody ass up".

minimumunstick 4th Jul 2015 06:07


Originally Posted by viking767 (Post 9033228)
Why not take the redundant 737 pilots and train them on the 787 like a decent company would do?

They offered this to the pilots that were laid off last year actually, so maybe they will do it again this year.

However, some of the pilots might not have the experience required to fly the 787, and besides, some of them probably don't even want to fly the 787.

Of course offering something is better than nothing at all, but doing so still wouldn't make this OK. Far from it!

captplaystation 4th Jul 2015 08:06

I don't remember there being many takers for the 787 offer last time around, which would no doubt be influenced by the need to provide a sum of cash/bank guarantee somewhat beyond the financial ability of someone just laid off after only 6mths on Contract.

LNIDA 4th Jul 2015 09:30

Last year many pilots not effected took reduced working or unpaid leave to 'help' reduce the impact, the outcome was that most of the lay offs had their lay off period reduced.

Few will do so this time round, it would also be nice to see the Norwegian union which was supported by the euro based pilots during their dispute get a grip of this situation, after all most if not all the lay offs are to pilots who have worked in OSL since starting.

I understand that the letter to these pilots states that this will be a 'one off' event ?? for the second time .......few will believe that.

Greenlights 4th Jul 2015 10:23

+1 Highfive,

Seriously, what did they expect for "working" for them ?
They just got what they deserved! and I don't have any sympathy for them.
They will make burgers in winter...

opscat 4th Jul 2015 22:46

No Fly Zone.......... 'And of course... if it is not in writing, it simply ain't gonna happen.'

You would like to think so wouldn't you? Unfortunately not at Norwegian. An OSL core Captain told me that there was a DEC pilot here completing his line training in OSL last week. This pilot had signed a contract for OSM for Gatwick starting in July but Norwegian and OSM were trying to force the pilot to now sign a Spanish contract instead. They waited until the day before his line check and the chief pilot told him that unless he signed the Spanish contract he would not be allowed to do his line check. The pilot refused so they sent him home - then terminated his contract.

Avoid Norwegian like the plague unless you are desperate. Even Ryanair is probably now a better option.

piperx 5th Jul 2015 00:06

Gaza 10, firstly I am sorry for the situation you find yourself in.

Professional Pilots, we all attend CRM etc to learn from the mistakes of others.

You have a first hand example here. Use it.

This practice only continues because you/we let it.

captplaystation 5th Jul 2015 01:01

A great deal of sense in the last 5 or so posts (I say "or so" as I don't want to include myself)

LNIDA, I am heartened to see that your Rose Tinted spectacles are actually those really clever light sensitive/ variable jobbies that are NOT recommended for flying (OK for driving at high speed into tunnels :ugh: ) you have given me hope for the edification process that is really required, & to be applied to anyone in doubt of what is "The Norwegian Way"
However, as you know only too well, the "Norwegian Pilots Union " / NPU can only get involved if someone is on a Norwegian Contract, not an ARPI/OSM/Whoreshuttle contract temporarily dumped in Scandinavia after line training to artificially prove that the Core pilot figure is sufficient. . . .but well, I guess you know/understand all that. NPU do what they can, within their remit/Norwegian Labour Law, I eagerly await BALPA's contribution, although their recognition,given that it is with the Seamans Employer, rather than the postholder, may limit their influence a bit there, lets see.


gaza10, the writing was on the wall IF you had taken the time to read the postings made (at personal cost/liability to some of us ) on here, so, don't be remotely surprised, you were warned, and if you didn't believe, you could have PM'd any of us for confirmation, &/or read the history of how it went last Winter.

opscat, regretably, yes, that is pretty much the "company culture" :{ or so it appears going forward. The NLH thread is a source of unbridled joy too.

Direct Bondi 5th Jul 2015 04:59

Another NAS pilot layoff should come as no surprise from a management culture best described as punitive and poisonous. Despite a Post Holder goon who regularly appears in the Norway press tomasterfully hammer home the Norwegian product, pilots should be seeking other alternatives to becoming 100% Norwegian.

Recall that many ex-Ryanair pilots dumped NAS and returned to the rock solid 5/4/5 of Ryanair and better pay, after their promise of direct employment turned into a blatant lie, with cancelled contracts, pilot layoffs and the strike devolution of the Scandinavian core group - turning a once strong union into more of a string onion. Divide and conquer – mission accomplished.

As a contractor employed by an agency, you are providing a service to Norwegian like catering or cleaning. Norwegian instructs the agency as to the services and manpower they require. You have no recourse whatsoever with Norwegian regarding any employment and/or contract issues with your agency employer. No union can help you, including BALPA. This is the reality of the employment circumvention Kjos has achieved. Things can only get worse.

Sadly, in less than three years the now separated core group of NAS pilots will find themselves in the same position, after each receives another OSM phone call at home, to again threaten being fired or signing an OSM contract. 100% Norwegian, indeed.

minimumunstick 5th Jul 2015 11:49

This thread reeks of hindsight bias and know-it-all mentality. And it's sickening to read. Not uncommon when things like these happen unfortunately.

Some of you are so good at looking back and finding it so obvious how these layoffs during winter happened for the second time. Because it was so damn clear to see and anyone who didn't see it coming must be mentally retarded, right? Stop fooling yourselves. You did not know for certain it would happen, because none of us did.

Of course in hindsight it is all easy to explain and there are so many convenient explanations available to show how "easy" it was to see this coming.. no matter how much you believe you knew it was going to happen you actually did not know for sure. This is a perfect example of the hindsight bias. It's easy to criticize and find faults in someone's decision making after the outcome is known, and likewise also very easy to forget that when the decision was made the outcome was actually still unknown.

The truth is that even for the pilots in Norwegian this was surprising news. It did happen last year, but considering the explanations given it could all seem like a simple ****up by the crew planning department (which would not be a surprise), or a mere coincidence as new routes that were planned from the Euro-bases had their start-ups postponed leaving less work for the pilots. My point being that it would be just as easy to find logical explanations to the hypothetical scenario that no one was laid-off this winter as to the actual scenario that people will in fact be laid off.

So get off your high horses everyone, cut the crap, and show some respect to your fellow aviators. They could not know this was going to happen again, and neither could you. Telling someone they "should've known" and that they "deserve" to be laid off because of it is just being disrespectful and quite frankly, stupid.

FlyboyUK 5th Jul 2015 13:48

Well said minimumstick:ok:

Avenger 5th Jul 2015 14:44

I'm not sure anyone is " blaming the pilots" yes they may have been feeling secure given last years events and the promises of your management that there would not be a repetition of events.. this is not the issue.. the real issue is : How can any responsible company behave in such an atrocious manner.. Now you may spring to their defence with " overmanning, lack of new routes, overcapacity, commercial pressures etc etc, all bull.." and I am sure there is genuine embarrassment among the core pilots, however, how many other low costs do this? No wonder the pilots are trading the red nose for the golden harp, it is more acceptable than the golden rivet!

captplaystation 6th Jul 2015 01:54

minimumunstick,

specsavers is a well known optical chain. . . . . . .


reality pills, are possibly not available on prescription, but are surely advised for anyone in this industry.


None so blind, as those that will not see













Old 8th Feb 2015, 14:11 #50 (permalink)
captplaystation

Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: FUBAR
Posts: 3,064
To which you can add


The winter season 2015 will open up for the possibility of extended Leave of Absence (working outside the Norwegian group), reduced working patterns (50-80%) or leave for most bases at the EURO/SCAN area. If you already have a wish for a break in the autumn of 2015, please send an Email as soon as possible.


For anyone who doesn't remember, a similar request last Summer did not yield enough "volunteers", which resulted in between 1 & 4 mths forced unpaid leave for the most recent entrants. There was no solution to this until the pilots got together & ameliorated it by volunteering to help out their colleagues by taking reduced roster. This resulted in most receiving shorter forced breaks, or at least 25% or 50% employment for part of it.

It appears NAS is becoming a seasonal employer, in regards to Base Stability / 100% employment, this suits some people, if it doesn't . . . beware, leaving FR will not mean you are leaving behind being dicked around for basings, nor having to take unpaid leave over the Winter (at least for the first couple of years you are here )
captplaystation is online now Report Post

highfive 6th Jul 2015 04:23

Clearly the contracts cannot be worth much if an employee can be forced to take 'unpaid" leave?

The important issue here, for those looking at joining NAS or NLH , is the companies intent. If it becomes accepted that the workforce are
complicit with the employers "requests" then it will become accepted practice. If you have 200 hours and living at your parents, or sharing digs, then no problem.
For the majority, its a lottery and must make sound financial planning a headache. How do guys on these punitive contracts expect to plan for their long term futures?

How long before this thinking of taking an autumn "break" will spread to the long haul? From what I gather, it seems the guys there are rather smug that they are in a separate company and there is no cross over. This will only last until there is a financial hickup or similar long haul slowdown, that requires NLH to trim its fat. Or cancel a few contracts.

All of this is not an issue to the newbie or desperate, or out of work brigade. They will take the crumbs on offer and hope to move on to pastures greener. Good luck with this.

For the majority, I cannot believe many will throw in the towel on an expat contract or a secure euro LoCo position to join either NAS or NLH. Its too risky and unstable.
I was hoping for something more but clearly these modern operators are ruthless with their staff.

minimumunstick 6th Jul 2015 09:24


minimumunstick,

specsavers is a well known optical chain. . . . . . .


reality pills, are possibly not available on prescription, but are surely advised for anyone in this industry.


None so blind, as those that will not see

Congratulations on your prediction which turned out to be correct. Do you want a cookie for that?

Unfortunately you fail to see that my point remains, and especially for you who "saw this coming from miles away" it is of course easy to be smug now in hindsight that it actually did happen.

Now the vast majority of pilots should "go get glasses" and are "uwilling to see" because they did not see this coming as clearly as you did right? Your comments are perfect to reiterate my point about "know-it-all" mentality which is perfectly displayed in your sarcastic comments. As someone else recently posted it should not be the topic of this discussion, and it is not very respectful to those affected either. Then of course, I have to say that I am familiar with your style of writing so it doesn't really surprise me coming from you ;)

Just to make my point clear: It was not shocking news that pilots would be laid off as it did happen last year, so you didn't really predict next week's lottery ticket numbers either. But we did not know for sure, and it was not clear cut that it would happen again as you believe it was.

Most likely some of the pilots who applied did indeed know that there was a risk involved, but maybe some of them coming from smaller companies without jet-experence considered it worth the risk anyway. Are they then "blind" and "in need of glasses" because they applied? In my opinion not at all. Their decision might have been a good one regardless.

M-ONGO 6th Jul 2015 09:43


and the best solution they came up is leave of absence during at least 6 months or choose to be out the company for the guys hired during 2015, most of them still during line training.
And if they choose to leave the company for pastures greener (or blue/yellow and whiter) they must pay half the rating back, according to a mate who's one of the few involved.

opscat 6th Jul 2015 09:43

Highfive, 'Clearly the contracts cannot be worth much if an employee can be forced to take 'unpaid" leave?'

The contracts are completely worthless when the previously agreed terms no longer suit Norwegian. See my earlier post about the captain that was terminated for refusing to give up his Gatwick contract to sign a Spanish one.

OSM advertise their contract as permanent employment. In reality it is no more than a rolling 3 month contract if the employee can be terminated for attempting to defend the terms in his existing contract. You accept what is forced upon you or you are out.

Anyone considering an application to Norwegian needs to be aware of the reality that others before them have experienced. I would only apply to this company if you have no other option. Proceed with caution.


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