M-ONGO, off topic but how do you insert a quote as you have done?

Cut the text you need then hit the button third from the right (speech bubble)

Paste the text within the lines.

Or just hit the quote button in the post you wish to quote.

minimumunstick,

I cannot claim any particular skill for predictions, but what I posted back in February (the "offer" to take unpaid leave" ) coupled with the clear example of what happened the previous Winter, and bearing in mind the lack of any promise from Norwegian that going forward this clearly could not be allowed to happen again, made it pretty clear that this was a likely outcome.

Totally agree, that for some there was no better option available, and believe me I am not rejoicing in the fate of the unfortunates involved. What I cannot do though is offer too much sympathy for those who failed to see it coming, we are, after all, supposed to try & stay ahead of the game whilst exercising this profession, skills we should apply to our thinking with regard to our employment scenario too.

M-ONGO and LSM...... Thanks chaps. I view pprune on an iPad so will take a look....

The captain who was alledgely (as per previous poster) promised Lgw and ultimately told he had to go to Spain won't get any sympathy. There is a base system in place and it is based on seniority- everyone who does an ounce of research before signing their contract will know that. Good luck to him or her.

Widebdy - I read it that he had a contract at Gatwick (signed and accepted) and that the company decided to change it to a Spanish one. If that was the case then I for one are somewhat under impressed by the company position and actions.

I fully agree, if true I am not impressed nor surprised by the companies actions but I still struggle to have pity for the individual.

There is a small number of pilots moaning that they were "promised" a certain base - contract or not - there isn't much reason to complain. The greatest tragedy for many people in Ryanair (where most of us have come from) was the lack of a transparent basing system - it had the potential to ruin families and family planning- a big problem in a company with so many bases and the willingness to open and close them in a blink of an eye. In Norwegian we have a system and yet pilots think they can walk into Norwegian and skip the queue for a base - contract or no contract - that selfish attitude is not welcome. I will be the last to defend any company making broken promises, however the health warnings regarding those promises were public knowledge. The seniority system is there for everyones long term benefit.

Go to the junior base and do your time. In any event given the expansion a UK base will not take very long. The reward for short term pain will be a protected place in a base you want.

Norwegian has issues but it has a certain amount of established "transparent" systems which are followed 95% of the time. Issues can be fixed through improved communication and negotiations. Essentially, as usual pilots will need to act collectively to encourage the company to move in a certain direction. Pilots believing promises or signing contracts that go against those systems like basing are not helping anyone. A number of pilots who got notified of lay offs this winter apparently only joined the union last week and then demand help - reap what you sow.

Latest info from Oslo is the company met the pilots notified of unpaid this winter, and the union rep.

No doubt the pilots explained the individual problems unpaid leave creates, as well as the potential problems of damage to Norwegians reputation as an employer as they approach a time of major recruitment. It will take at least a few days for a solution, should one be forthcoming.

Widebdy. I don't agree with a number of your comments. You say you have no pity for this individual? Most people reading this would expect an employer to honour the terms of a signed contract. By signing a contract, both employee and employer agree to certain terms and conditions. It is a legally binding document that defines the parameters of the working relationship. The minute it becomes acceptable to terminate a contract because those terms become a little inconvenient then we are all doomed.

An employer breaking a promise is one thing, but breaching a contract in this way is unacceptable. Would you expect pity if your contract was torn up and you were told you would be terminated if you failed to agree to their new terms? I don't suppose you'd be that amused either. From what I recall this is no different to how Norwegian tried to treat the Scandi pilots over their contracts.

I agree that transparent systems are vital and seniority is all important for base allocation. But what control would this pilot have had over these systems? He received an acceptable contract and signed it. Who would honestly do any different? You say that the seniority system is there for everyone's long term benefit - I agree. However I would add that the legal system of the state takes precedent and is there for all our protection from the unscrupulous actions of immoral employers.

If this event is true, then I do have pity for the pilot concerned - this could happen again to any pilot currently engaged by Norwegian. The actions of the company go to prove that it's moral values are clearly in the gutter.

Fair point, I was a little unfair. I would pity any pilot having their contract breached.

It is not acceptable to see any company breaching pilots contracts nor is it acceptable to see any pilot, regardless of their contract, expecting to jump a seniority list. If his or her contract was breached I wish them well in finding a solution. It is worth pointing out that, if true, the situation is unusual, most pilots entering Norwegian, even those with promises, do not have contracts reflecting that and are also well aware their seniority may require them to work from another base for a short time.

Different story for the guys notified about winter unpaid leave but we await further news from Oslo about what solutions are on the table. Norwegian need to get a handle on things quickly if they are too find high quality pilots when recruitment reopens. It is frustrating as generally Norwegian is a nice place to work once clear of the murky area at the bottom of the seniority list. The company need to stop abusing the junior pilots and approach the unions for a mutual solution to such issues.

Seniority means different things depending on an individual's expectations. One guy may be more senior at base xx but joined the company after another guy at base yy that had more experience. In general the simplest form is by company join date but temporary postings and vague promises raise people's expectations artificially. Whilst it appears NAS are blatantly abusing the contracts on the surface it may well transpire the individuals concerned did not fully understand their positions. Now a permanent contract that gets massaged into a 6 month on 6 month off is another matter and perhaps NAS can take a leaf from the Ryanair book and offer meaningful permanent contracts directly with the company with the associated benefits. Ryanair seemed to have learnt a lesson from the exodus and now concentrate on pilot retention not alienation which appears to be the NAS policy

Seems like they're going the RYR-route.

Cut costs and push the limits and then back up one notch just enough to keep people.

After such bad PR I really do wonder how they're going to find competent people. Me personally and others where I work now see Norwegian as a sub-Ryanair alternative.

Havent you heard? If companies like this can't find pilots, they just lower the bar, simple as that. There are always desperate pilots without experience.

There is several comments above suggesting Norwegian is "sub-ryanair". A word of caution, using a forum as a tool to weigh up different companies is probably not the best method. Personally I would regard the rates of attrition as a better indicator tool.

For Norwegians reputation to be as low as some people are suggesting goes to show just how poorly management have handled and communicated on some recent issues. They can only blame themselves if they do not attract quality candidates for interview next year. They must improve. In my opinion, Norwegian is a better place to work and Norwegian offer their pilots better longterm prospects.

Yes, Norwegian like all airlines has issues. However Norwegian, or at least their agency, has recently recognised BALPA and is about to start talks with SEPLA. The company fights with unions, like most companies do, but they have not point blank refused to deal with unions. BALPA reps have not been mistreated for putting their name beside the union badge and several have now in fact got line training captain positions. The path is now paved for future issues to at least be discussed in a meaningful way.

Personally I see more light at the end of the Norwegian tunnel then I see at the end of the Ryanair tunnel. All just my humble opinion:} And each individual will have their own views and requirements.

"Sub-Easyjet" perhaps!

It is generally excepted that Easy is the " place to be" if you go the loco route, they are akin to a national carrier in terms of pay and conditions, Ryanair may not have the warm and fussy feeling that NAS seems to inspire but at least at Ryanair guys can get a permanent contract, get a mortgage and have a stable roster. Even though there may be poorly handled communication issues at NAS this is not an excuse to deprive people of a decent and normal lifestyle. I know several guys at NAS, like most are happy with their colleagues and the roster is very light out of Spain, however, due to the ' contract terms" are in the financial wilderness..Lets hope NAS steps up to the mark on this issue and gives meaningful transparent direct employment contracts..

RTO
 

I think its very unlikely that NAS will lower the bar, the nature of their operations in Scandinavia precludes it.

I gather that Norwegian have now offered 50% contract for the winter period to the 36 pilots that are the subject of this thread

Delusional, best describes many of you with respect to the legalities of your working relationship with Norwegian. Is there a signature from Norwegian on your agency contract? Do the terms "seniority" and "transparent systems" or similar, appear anywhere in your contract?

The Scandinavian core group are the only pilots having direct employment with Norwegian and associated employment rights. This group was unilaterally divided into three divisions during the strike (possibly illegally) and has a collective agreement with Norwegian for three years. After which, they too will become employees of an agency.

Norwegian is not obliged to give an agency pilot three months notice - they simply instruct the agency they no longer require your services, and the agency gives you three months notice, not Norwegian. The agency may find you alternative work during the three months notice period. If they do not, a clause in the contract indemnifies the agency from your financial loss a result of any action by the lessee airline - read your contract.

Who would you take to an Employment Tribunal? - certainly not Norwegian, they were not your employer.

BALPA and SELPA can only collectively negotiate with an employer. Norwegian has no legal requirement to comply nor honor any agreement reached between a pilot union and their employer agency.

Welcome to the Bjorn Kjos world of employment rights circumvention. A world with no lights at the end of any tunnels.

Bondi
 

Pilots flying for Norwegian in Euro bases are not employed by Norwegian, no one is under any illusion about that. They are employed by an agency and just like most pilots they have a 3 month notice period.

The rest is froth, we get paid what we signed up for on time and there are far far worse place to work.:cool:

"there are far far worse place to work"

That may be the case but temp agency contracts are the poison pill in this industry and its reactions like that and a willingness to take them that is driving conditions down of all operators. The accountants are playing judge the lowest bar and pay £1/1€ more and the applications come flying in.

Which agency does NAS use? Is it EU based? Norway is not, and is NAS registered head office in Norway?

RAT5
 

Most non Norway/Sweden/Denmark pilots are now employed by OSM Aviation on permanent contracts. All taxes and social security taxation is collected by OSM in accordance with in country local rules and regulations.

These are not temp positions googlebug

We receive holiday, sick pay, we are paid a basic salary + flight duty pay, my year to date gives an annual pay of £110,000.00 but no pension for now. I get my medical renewal costs refunded and staff car parking is paid, i also get monthly mobile phone allowance. Free travel on company flights for commuting including two items of checked baggage + ID staff travel for family/friends, oh i get paid for sim duty and its a rostered working day(s) oh and yes standby is also a working day with 4 hours of duty pay if not called.

Roster disruption is very low 95% of the time, we night stop & get b&b in decent airport hotels, uniform is of course free of charge with a points based system for replacing it twice yearly, this includes flight bag, night stop bag, and cooler bag.

We also get free crew meals........+ We now have BALPA recognition

So for most the crap that gets posted on here bares no relationship to what we see in our daily lives

Apart from my payslip coming from OSM i'm not sure it makes any difference ??

LNIDA just a quick question please . Do you get a UK P60 and UK tax code considering your employer is not UK based? I think if the tax and NI are stopped then you should automatically be provided with one, this was an obsticle to getting a mortgage in the past with some of the agency workers as no P60 was issued . Genuine enquiry

Well put LNIDA.
I've found that they at least want a happier workforce as opposed to a few airlines I know.

Curious: I googled OSM Aviation Services to try and find out where they are based/registered. Nothing on their website, just a contact form, but no address or telephone numbers. The simple question is: if it is declared that you are employed by OSM, and they are EU based, then you have certain rights. If they are non-EU it asks the question how they can employ people on full-time contracts and base them in EU. Are they making deductions relative to where they are based or the country where the crews are based? With various country bases that could be a weighty administrative burden.
Interesting that they have gone the 'agency employee' route rather than the more dubious construction of some of their competitors. If this is a legitimate construction I wonder how long the other models can survive. There must be a reason why they have chosen this model of employment.

LNIDA:

"employed by OSM Aviation on permanent contracts" - "These are not temp positions"

Permanent positions with OSM, NOT Norwegian.

The lessee airline, Norwegian, may terminate your services at any time, depending on their contract with the agency, which neither the pilots nor any union are party to.

"We now have BALPA recognition"

You do NOT have BALPA recognition with Norwegian, because Norwegian is not your employer. You may have recognition by your employer agency. Norwegian are NOT obliged to comply nor honor any collective agreement between pilots and their employer agency.

Let me know when Kjos signs any collective agreement involving BALPA or SEPLA.

As I stated - many of you are delusional as to the legalities of your working relationship with Norwegian.

The use of an agency in this manner not only relieves the Company of the admin burden of the payroll but also provides a means to ensure that the taxes due are collected and thus avoid the types of problems Ryanair guys had with setting up bogus shell companies to avoid tax. As we know the Ryanair system was slammed by the courts as tax evasion and at least NAS are avoiding such possible events. If NAS wanted to be the employer probably they would need a UK based company NAS UK ltd for instance just as Cathy have CX UK ltd.

RAT5 & Kirks gusset
 

OSM Aviation UK is the employer they are based in Crawley. Yes UK notice of coding and UK employer reference number. In the UK the payroll is actually processed by Moore Stephens payroll (outsourcing outsourced !!) the important thing is it is done correctly and we get paid on the 25th, still a few minor hitches but it gets more accurate with each month.

OSM Spain deal with the other Euro bases, tax is more complicated for people who commute between Spain and Denmark in particular, but the bottom line is that the company through its outsourcing to OSM is compliant with national rules and the liability for payment of tax is black and white as opposed to blue & yellow

RAT this is why they have chosen agency employee route.

Mortgage and credit checks have been no problem

When travelling on a commute (known as S2) ticket there is no requirement to travel in uniform and you check in with normal fair paying passengers, not pretending to be on crew manifest going through crew security, it is sub load of course unless positioning duty.

The way i see it is you might earn more at FR and have a fixed roster pattern, but you don't feel embarrassed when telling people who you work for, you don't get the roster excitement that seems to be the Summer norm with Jet2, so all in all not perfect but most are happy

Bondi i respectfully suggest you re read the post or read it properly in the first place! we are NOT employed by Norwegian our contract is not with Norwegian, of course if Norwegian cancel the agreement it can change, but that can equally apply to any employer, just ask the poor sods at Monarch who were employed by Monarch, so again I am not delusional and I know the legality of my employment contract & yes we have union recognition between our employer (OSM) & BALPA

LNIDA thanks for clarifying that. I hear new Ryanair contracts are with Ryanair UK but that should not be an embarrassment with the "BE NICE " by MOL campaign! Doesn't effect me working for Europe's favourite airline already ! Just thinking of the green grass days ahead and some hobby flying! But not 73 the roster would be too much. 50 percent would suit me just fine ��

LNIDA.
Please, if you are trying to sell everyone your nice contract with your contract agency, could you at least tell the truth to everyone?

1. Permanent contract: well I guess yes but as mentioned before nothing to do with Norwegian. You are employed with an agency, OSM, and nothing else. Also it is stated that you can get a base change at any time with 2 months notice and as well as unpaid leave for the whole 6 winter months with the same notice. So much for permanent, hey?

2 holiday: again yes like everyone else however dont expect any pay for those days. So again less money when you take them.

3 No pension

4 Sick pay: well, 30 days at 90% basic and then...

5 111.000 pounds for this current year. You are just having a laugh!!

6 Car Park: you forgot to mention that it has just been taken away by your nice OSM agency recently because and like a lot of things too, it is no writren in the contract

7 Sim pay: are you on something that I'd like too. Just read the above

8 Uniforms: I guess I'll give you that one but dont forget that you generous poits system has been severely reduced so dont' expect an bag every year.

9 Standbys: of course they will pay you 4 hours of dutty but that is until you get call to position around Europe because did you forget to mention that positioning is free of charge.

10 Also and not the least this is just from me: according to what it has been happening this summer. Expect to fly away from you asigned base very often and from very expensive countries so make sure you save a little of you massive salary because you wont get any extra nor per diem for night sttoping.

Everything else is ok seriously

Jedy
 

Some people don't want hear it as it is it seems, i'm not trying to sell you or anyone else anything, personally i don't give a fig whether people decide stay/leave/join, makes no difference to me I'm just a line grunt.

I don't know of a single pilot who actually got 6 months unpaid leave, that includes the people who are the subject of this thread, now on 50% for the winter, not ideal i'll grant you

I get paid leave = equal to my basic salary including fixed allowance and phone allowance.

£111,000.00 no laugh thats my YTD earning yes a couple of days off in that

Parking is included, but depends on basing, included in the UK, but not in all the Spanish bases.

Uniform points system has been reduced, but unless you sleep in it and wear it when your out on the pull its plenty to be honest, positioning isn't free of charge, its a working day and you get salary just the same, but no flight duty pay.

Some hotels in Scandinavia, yes not cheap but its B&B i guess your airline buys your beer hahaaa,

Take it or leave and yes you work hard

LNIDA,
It will be interesting to see the small print of the OSM long haul version.....

And yes we have to sleep in our clothes so enough points for an OSM crew bunk onesie would be nice...

Some useful information from LNIDA, of curiosity, my Tax year starts 1st Jan most start 6th April. To earn 111K in 6 months is 222K a year! or if we take the 6th April is 444K a year? Not quite right, perhaps an average monthly as shown on the payslip would be of more use.. maybe its " earnings to date" i.e total since employment?

Guys, forget the salary 'willy waving' contest. Concerning the financials, the Norwegian deal is not the best but it's not the worst either. Norwegian is let down by poor employee relations although many have no issues at all. These issues are clear for all to see from reading these forums - where there is smoke there is fire. If you are thinking of applying, don't be surprised if you find yourself on unpaid leave over the winter or that your base is changed every six months if that base up sizes/downsizes seasonally - a hopeless situation especially if you want to settle somewhere with a family.

As has been mentioned before, Balpa recognition is not directly with Norwegian but with the agency, OSM - and therefore of little value. Recognition from the organ grinder is not going to happen - you are unfortunately left to deal with the monkey. The minute Norwegian decides to change the arrangement don't expect your 'permanent' OSM contract to protect you. As a previous poster wrote, consider this 'permanent' contract as a rolling 3 month contract and you won't be disappointed. Be extremely cautious giving up permanent direct employment with an airline elsewhere for this arrangement at Norwegian.

Just to be clear the annual salary pro rata YTD is £111,000.00 based on my YTD earnings divided by the number of months worked multiplied by 12 months, hope that clears that one up, sorry if i wasn't clear in my previous post

Loco outside of perhaps BA i would recommend all employee consider their employment as a 3 months rolling notice, bmibaby, Monarch, XL, Globespan, flybe

BALPA might/should be interested in testing the 'permanent contract' status and T's & C's in a UK court. If it is operated as a 3 month rolling contract, and T's & C's changed willy nilly at the behest of NAS, I would expect BALPA to have a case to argue on behalf of their disadvantaged members. OSM have the duty of care to their employees. That can't just say it's out of their hands because in fact NAS pulls the strings. BALPA should be eager, but I doubt it will happen. In another sphere, after many of the guys at RYR have pumped €-m's into IALPA we have heard nothing about what fruits have come from seeds sown with those contributions. Are unions just stashing the dosh away for a rainy day for some more priority members' issue? The tax authorities in various countries seem to be getting their act together and warming up the engines. If there has always been a case why have the representatives of the crews not been more active? Just asking, as it has been very quiet on that front, across the whole industry, for 3 years or more.

RAT5 & Kirks gusset
 

When most of us started it was a 2 year contract with a months notice by either party, i know of only a couple of guys that got the bullet with a months notice and that TBH was down to said individuals bringing the company into disrepute in the media (one now features heavily in the USA anti Norwegian traffic rights dispute) an awful lot more left for greener patches closer to home and gave and got one months notice period, no if or but and some hadn't even completed their line training, I'm sure those guys would agree they were treat fairly by Norwegian, they worked their notice and got paid what they were due, there was no bond for people coming new to the NG from the classic

It is a permanent contract with 3 months notice on either party, so its not a rolling contract, i.e. renewable after 3 months.

Anyway enough of all that good to see the new internal Spanish flights launched today starting October 2015

LNIDA quote:

"this is why they have chosen agency employee route"

It also allows Norwegian to treat their crew in this way:-

DN News, Dec 13, 2012
"Within Norwegian threats of reprisals against crew being used in daily operations"

Nettavisen News, July 10, 2013
"English [Norwegian] intimidates officers and employees from expressing themselves"

DN News, Nov 14, 2013
"None of them [agency crew] want to come forward for fear of their future with Norwegian"

E24 News, Jan 26, 2015
"Threatened pilots to sign a new contract using aggressive tactics and threats to revoke contracts if pilots did not sign"

Dagbladet News, March 3, 2015
"Feeling exposed to a witch hunt from Kjos" [cabin crew after reporting a serious safety occurrence]

There are many more reports in the media regarding the Kjos circumvention of employment law and employment principles by the use of agency employed crew.

Norwegian is effectively the employer by having full control over their crew. In fact, EU law states this to be the main consideration in defining an "employer". Kjos fights this EU regulation tooth and nail because it doesn't benefit him. However, he expects full recognition and rights as an EU airline, and even receives representation from the EU Commission at taxpayers expense!

The Norwegian regime permits crew to be fired at will and without recourse against Norwegian. Such an abhorrent working environment creates a fear culture and should be made illegal.

Perhaps LNIDA can provide information as to the status of the Captain who was fired for refusing to sign a new contract with a Spanish base, and what recourse he has against Norwegian?

Bondi

I give up..............

Your talking about a place i don't recognise day to day

I'm happy with my lot

LNIDA:

I am pleased you are happy with your lot, however, you might recognize the fear culture were you to remove your heavily tinted, rose-colored glasses!

The latest report of Norwegian's free hand of labor abuse, enabled by its use of an agency employer:-

Dagbladet News, June 19, 2015
"This smells of punishment and discrimination, says deputy Vegard Einan in PARAT, which organizes pilots and cabin staff in English [Norwegian]"

Link to newspaper article:
Raser mot Norwegian: - Lukter av straff og forskjellsbehandling - nyheter - Dagbladet.no

What is the status of the Captain fired by Norwegian via his agency employer, for refusing to accept a unilateral change to his previously agreed base, and how is the 'white knight' of BALPA assisting him ?