Stocious,

I think you've misunderstood my comment so apologies if I was unclear... I have no problem with anyone going for a command regardless of background! You'll only pass if the training dept deem you suitable. I was shocked at the sense of entitlement, not if I get my command but when... Still got to pass the course!

Plus unless the original FPP's have been nailing 850hrs + per year consistently then no they don't have the required hrs or experience (changed in OM-A last year).

Good luck to them, will make most of the junior skippers happy with more guys bellow them.

Anyway to the thread.... I still feel there will be DEP's next year, just BA don't know it yet!

I wish I was a FPP, my point was. In the eyes of the company you have the same rights as a cadet who joined the same day. I don't feel special at all, bottom of the seniority list on my fleet and I'm fine with that.

When I joined BA I was a TRI in my old company shortly to start my command course there. When you join BA you start at the bottom. There is no point in winging about it. BA is not for everyone, if command is what you want stay where you are now.

FlipFlapFlop I still disagree with you views. Having joined with very similar experience as yourself on the SH fleet I'm a big supporter of the seniority system and strongly disagree with your views; That because you have thousands of hours and been flying for 10 years you are entitled to a higher seniority then the pilot who joined a day or a year before you.

The seniority system keeps things fair and transparent for everybody. For example there is no such thing as DEC because it's cheaper for the company then to upgrade a FO (something my previous employer loved to do even though they kept telling the troops they rather upgrade from within). Also partly because of the seniority system it doesn't matter that people who joined after a person get offered a direct LH position. As soon as the more senior person gets LH they will have more roster satisfaction.

I appreciate everybody is different but also if you think a quick command in BA is going to give you a massive pay rise you are in for a surprise. A FO with high fleet seniority and therefor high credit efficient triplines is probably only around 500 pounds worse off then a junior skipper on blindlines with lots of TASS.

I've just re-read the Yammer post in question and can see none of the sense of entitlement you seem to see. It's a polite and reasonable question, with not one use of the word 'when' or any other presumptive language.

The early FPPs started in late 2013 and despite being pretty work-shy and a number of intakes behind them, I'm only a couple of hundred hours short of the OM A requirements at present, let alone by the time I'd start a course. Not that I'm bidding for one. I can imagine some of the keener ones have the hours required.

Either way, I suspect the point is moot this year.

All in all quite dissapointed with the news. Still not giving up hope completely, who knows what'll change. I've nowgot till October 2018 to just keep swimming...

What I don't understand though are the latest rumours combined with a few facts:

- part time will be issued
- new 787s on the way
- introduction of the 350 in '19?
- some retirement
- different rostering systems
- fleet bidding still open
- no final network plan as of yet

Rumours:
- between 150-200 new pilots needed, all from different sources and yammer

How come they are only taking 65 now?

I don't want to give false hope but having mulled over this, I think there was good reason for an overly pessimistic outlook.

After all you are now going to be swimming for another year, whereas before there was no prospect of a job.

All speculation on my part but hopefully all swimmers will get what they fully deserve eventually.

The seniority system also artificially restricts effective free movement between companies, and depresses terms and conditions. It is an anachronistic system, and the fact that it's not used in any other profession speaks volumes.

An awful lot of Captains I fly with on the 744 are going to retire in the not too distant future. You only have to look in iBid and search the RETs to see the numbers which are steadily leaving. Many choose only to give the bare minimum notice. I'd be very surprised if there is no recruitment in the short term. This is just my observation. I've given up on Yammer!

Saab
What you seem to be 'missing' is something already contained in your list. The "different rostering system" is JSS. This will ensure that all pilots meet their CAP commitment every month. Currently many Blind Line Holders only manage that with the use of (often useless!) Time Assignable.

Ergo, fewer pilots required by BA to cover the same amount of work!

Because we don't want to digress, we won't bother explaining where the trips, currently unavailable to junior BLHs will come from!:rolleyes:

4468, you're probably right in as much as potentially fewer pilots to cover the work. But that, in my opinion, still won't mitigate all the other factors. There's going to be more than just the 65, but I suspect they're going to be white tail cadets, then DEP will cover any unforeseen holes after the flying programme/bid results are known (if any).

640hrs in a year on blind lines........20% less than most trip line holders.

This is one of my favourite threads on pprune, but I've never posted until now.

May I be so bold as to ask what a full-time, LH, TRE, with say 25 years senerority could expect to earn at BA?

IMHO. Maybe it's a flaw with my generation or maybe I wear rose tinted glasses, but most people my age do not seem to play the long game and are not prepared to invest longterm into their career and await the fruits of their labour.

This is not a shot at guys on this thread in their mid 30s+ with kids and mortgages. I understand you can not hang around waiting for T&Cs to improve when you are in that stage of your life.

So, in light of my intial question, surely BA is still a company to aim for if you are my age?

FO or Captain? :)

What's your age ?
With the rise of low cost LH I'm sure BA will have to make more cost cuts too "streamline" its operations
Pp24-pp34 ?

Captain TRE approx 130k plus variable pay on PP34 or £150k on PP24. 25 years is a long time though a lot of people will be retiring before reaching that level of seniority. Alternatively you can go to Easy and earn that much after 3 to 4! No one comes to BA for the money any more.

So.... it will be interesting to see if any DEP's actually get taken on. After all that hard work to get in and then to be mucked around isn't a good feeling at all!

Long Haul low cost isn't viable in the long run. If it were then O'Leary would have already done it. And don't tell me he hasn't costed it.

Air France 447 etc. Both of the pilots at the controls were Air France cadets. I could go on, but I won't bore anyone with the obvious.

I can see why your self interest would lead you to that conclusion. However; the highest paying airline jobs in the world* are in the U.S. The average F.O. yearly income at a large low cost carrier (737) is higher than a LH Captain at British Airways (£160K per annum). That doesn't include the retirement paid by the company. The minimum hiring requirement for a F.O. is 1000 hours of turbine command. As another poster mentioned, the regional airlines are starting F.O. on £45K. The company pays for a pilots training and type rating.

Given the news that well qualified DEP at BA have just received, and the lack of rest/fatigue management rules, I'm surprised to hear a pilot say that "things are fine as they are" in Europe.

* I haven't included CA positions in China, since it's not relevant.

The problem with this argument is pretty obvious really. I became a captain when I was 30. Running my take home pay backwards through a UK salary calculator shows that I would have to earn well over £200k a year to have the same net pay in the UK, and I work part time. Granted, I live in an expensive part of the world, but not appreciably more so than London.

I'm sure there are BA captains who earn more than me, but they'll have been in the company a long time, and almost certainly have training and/or management responsibilities (or do a hell of a lot of overtime!). The power of a (relatively) high salary when you're (relatively) young is in compounding (the same reason why sticking money in a pension is a good idea at the earliest opportunity). Financially it simply wouldn't make sense for someone like me to make the move; yes, I'd probably earn more for the last few years of my career, but I've got around two decades a of earning more. All assuming Ts & Cs remain static of course!

As others have eluded to, going to BA certainly wouldn't be a decision based on finances for many. This is all to say nothing of the other reasons to make the switch.

I think I'm wrong in my assumptions that BA is still a career airline, at least in some regards. The figures ENZO provided in his last post were a bit surprising to be honest.

Maverick,

I'll start by saying as many others have, money shouldn't be the driving factor for choosing this career.
However I think enzo was slightly conservative. If I'm looking at it correctly I'd say a 25 year LH trainer is on circa 164k basic plus 20k training plus flight/duty pay (pp24) & 140k basic, 20k training, again plus flight/duty pay (pp34).

Obviously it'll take a long time to get there but you asked!

Not a lot in the great scheme of things, especially when paying income taxes, AA exceedence taxes and the costs involved in coming to work in the South East.

Whether one considers it 'a lot' or not is subjective, I was just trying to provide accurate figures.

I can appreciate that JS...just trying to add to the debate. BA has fallen behind in the pilot pay over the last 20 years or so. We work pretty hard for not much money in the great scheme of things. Sadly, mostly given away by ourselves and our reps. But that is a whole new thread. :)

The Assistant Pilot Recruitment Manager mentioned in the last email to those in the pool was at CTC last weekend (L3 sorry) which could confirm many of the rumours on here...............

Hunter boy... Agreed! :ok:

Has anyone contacted BA to ask about the "white tail" rumour? They were pretty quick to stamp on the FlyBe -> BA 777 rumour a few months ago, their silence on this says a lot I think...

And on the subject of contacting BA HR, has anyone filled out the survey regarding their "Candidate Experience"? :E

Hunterboy, I'm not having a dig at you as I'm sure I've skewed your comment slightly out of context but to be fair, we're not exactly on the breadline working our fingers to the bone. I suppose it's all a case of perspective. How great is the great scheme of things? Everyone else I know who earns comparable money spends most of their waking hours tied to the job, stress levels through the roof and never really having a 'day off'. Year 1 DEPs in BA are in the top 7% of earners in the country even if they do the bare minimum, top 5% if they do a couple of days' overtime every other month. Captains with 20 years' service are top 2-3%. The phone doesn't ring on days-off, and from a personal perspective I walk away from an aeroplane and don't even think about work until I turn up for my next shift.

I speak to people from outside aviation and the effort/reward ratio is staggering. Seriously, go out and see what jobs attract a STARTING salary right at the bottom of the stack of £56,500 plus over £10,000 in extras. Also see whether those jobs have a guaranteed increase every year for the rest of your career, and then more often than not an annual pay rise on top of that. Middle or Far East pay it may not be (nor even necessarily LCC I concede) but it's a damn comfortable existence that I don't see people walking away from in their droves.

Currently promised. Not "guaranteed"!

Big difference!

airbus38 Thanks for your comments. It's great to get a different perspective on things .
My profile probably shows I live abroad now and I guess my experiences and expectations have changed my opinions. It does seem that other EU flag carriers and our US competitors are still doing pretty well, for a lot less work. A problem I see with the UK is a serf mentality and a system that has been pretty well designed to milk the last drop of tax out you.
Much of this isn't the employers fault, of course, however, if I was a younger, more thrusting pilot, I'd be exploring options outside of the UK like a flash. It's a big world out there, full of opportunities for the talented and enthusiastic.
I'd certainly view being an airline pilot nowadays as a stepping stone to something better. It isn't a sustainable career for a 20 something starting out in the job.
I foresee many changes for BA flight crew. I'd suggest reading the Emirates threads as it will all be coming to an airline near you in the near future I suspect.

It's not a rumour.

Willing to pay for a type rating and take a reduced salary to join BA?

Tell you what - I'll auction off my airside pass and the idiot's guide to the 380*.

Pay me 30k up front and half my salary for the next 6 years and you'll be living the dream.

(Sorry Wiggy, et al... the very thought of paying for a type or voluntarily reducing a salary in our company is shocking)


*clearly not a serious offer

I've already started a crowd funder on the fleet Buter :)

Its going great.

That's why I love y'all!

Must wind up the rest of the company to know that we're now the best fleet to be on and it's a closed shop!

My sincere best wishes to all those in the hold pool.

Curious as to what you consider better?

Anything with a better balance of risk v reward v health. That will depend on your personal circumstances.

Euro millions fleet is probably better but I don't see much else. "A stepping stone" to what? I don't feel particularly qualified to do much else.

Just to correct Enzo's figures, basic pay point 24(old scale)/34 (new scale) long haul skippers pay is £164k. Variables would amount to about another £20k pa. A TRE earns an additional 18% on basic. So something in excess of £200k with no overtime for a full timer TRE.

There's a very good reason they have to offer start salaries that high in Qatar!

I'm sure that kind of salary would be on pp34 , which most would never see .
Also I'm very sure that BAs T&Cs will change again during the next 5 years and certainly in the next 34 !!!!