More great news for the holdpoolers!

No DEP for 2018... Holding time extended to another year but an interview is required if, big if, a start date is eventually given in 2019.

so, when is virgin opening up then? :}

Are you able to provide a source for that?

No DEPs at all for '18 contradicts info being put out by a v senior BA flight Ops wheel in a meeting a couple of weeks back. Then again, he could have been being kept in the dark as much as anybody else, and plans certainly change on a daily basis.

Wiggy if you were swimming you'd have an email from the source as of 1 hour ago ;)

Ahh..really sorry to hear that...

So much for management forums..

Good luck, hope the swimmers get something that works out.

CTC Whitetail self sponsored cadets have (or shortly will be) selected to join us in 2018/19. It would seem that they are interviewed after their ground exams are complete. Min requirements being an 85% average on their ATPLs and BBC at A-Level or equivalent. These new 'cadets' seem to be filling the hole left by the lack of FPPs once the last batch join at the end of this year/beginning of 2018.

I'm sure that it's completely coincidental that our former head of short haul joined CTC last year(!)

I don't want to be rude but can someone explain

Why are they putting cadets in front of 200 experienced, tried and tested proven pilots. whom most would bend over backwards to work for BA. Especially those of us coming from low cost airlines ?

Personally no idea, if they really have deliberately displaced those in the pool in favour of cadets then maybe in the current climate BA management have decided they want a younger malleable "product" :yuk:...after all that's a concept that has worked really well with Mixed Fleet.

OTOH if you fancy darker conspiracy theories I'd refer you to the final sentence in EMB-145LR's post....it's as good a guess as any.

A lot of the guys in the hold pool are the same age as the cadets. Who knows I guess. Very disappointed to say the least to be waiting this long with little or no information.

If I were being cynical I would say that over the first 8 years in the company they are paid a significant amount less than DEPs and are simply much cheaper.

They are cheap! Cadets will work for a third of money and pay for all their own training an ideal combo for AC. Race to the bottom accelerates all the time.

A few less £££ on the spreadsheet.

That's it. That's all BA care about.

Unfortunately it's not a huge surprise. The FPP if it runs again is going to look very different. All I heard is BA is no longer prepared to carry the debt on their books. What does that mean? You will have to secure the funding yourself........! The whole point was to find great guys and girls regardless of their ability to secure a loan. Looks like that's gone and it's a great shame. The bods in flight ops have their view but accountants rule it seems. As far as DEP being overlooked for cadets from flight schools first I have heard of it but you have got to expect BA to be looking at other airlines SH FO costs with green eyes. Any accountant will be asking why we are paying newly recruited FO's on the airbus so much more than other airlines. LH granted very different as you require experience but the FPP has proven that BA can operate its SH network with less experience in the RHS. With that we have got to expect an appetite to reduce cost by aiming to recruit cadets. Very often though what is said and what people hear are very different. It would surly take a large policy change and BALPA's agreement to recruit cadets from flight school directly ahead of those in the pool.

BA has to compete with the loco's and it's serious about doing so. With increasing momentum we are becoming one but BA is always going to cater for the smaller premium businesss on SH too. First it was productivity from pilots, then came the FPP, then changes to allowances and flight pay, after that it was the vote for bidline 2. That was the wrong option so we had to vote again until we got it right with JSS coming next year. The product has changed with BOB, outstation staff have been replaced with handling agents etc etc. It not desirable but I do believe it is necessary. Don't believe everything you hear as often it's doom only for it to turn out to be a bit of a pain in the arse.

Just a question Bex though, why exactly is it necessary when we are making £1.5 Billion in profit, way more than easyJet and Norwegian (whose CFO has incidentally just walked out without notice because they can't afford to finance the new aircraft)? Whether or not Short Haul is as profitable in its own right as easyJet or Ryanair is absolutely irrelevant because BA is not (for now) separated into Long Haul and Short Haul, the financial results are posted as the single entity that the company is. As a single entity the profits are exceeding a Billion for three years on the spin now and Short Haul feeds the Long Haul. What does it ultimately matter what the cost base for Short Haul is in comparison to other airlines when we are vastly out performing them in financial results? Maybe I'm missing something - I have been accused of being slow in the past - but I really do need this explained. This is not a company in poverty. Granted that doesn't mean we should accept inefficiencies and gross wastes but you cannot provide a premium product by outsourcing everything. That's just basic stuff. It sickens me how this brand is being cheapened by some two bob low cost CEO.

You make some good points Rex. The return on investment is less and investors want a greater return. The message is fairly clear. Those who are prepared to pay want a better product, everyone else wants it cheap and shareholders want greater returns. Profits are up yes but what about the revenue? I am just a simple guy really so it's probably me missing something.

There seems to be the assumption made that Holdpoolers (NTR) wouldn't be prepared to self fund a TR or be prepared to accept the lower pay of a CTC cadet? (Which looks to be the way BA are going).

I for one, would do anything (including accepting all of the above) to secure my dream job of working for BA. I used to believe that BA was one of the few airlines remaining that valued some previous life and aviation experience when recruiting FOs but that looks to have died a death.

Anyway to my original point, why not ask the NTR in the pool if they would be willing to self fund or pay back TR costs? Or is it a case of not wanting to declare what BA has become?

Sorry to other swimmers for volunteering lower Ts and Cs but I think the writing is on the wall for me and others. Looks like I will have to go and pay CTC 10k+ to validate my flying experience to date, sad times!

Lots of very (sadly) valid comment above,

bex, I may be missing the context for this comment, if so apologies, but can you clarify what you meant by:

(my emphasis)

I may be misinformed from time to time but AFAIK BALPA has no input into BA's recruiting mechanism and I suspect BALPA would have had no say at all at in this decision

Sorry if I'm sounding picky but I'm just trying to stop stories along the lines of "being stitched up by BALPA/senior pilots" starting to circulate - we've had enough of those already ;) .

The company haven't said they won't be plucking people out of the pool, just that there won't be any non-type rated DEP recruitment in 2018. The impression that I get is that the Whitetail cadets will replace any future FPP recruitment, at least in the short to medium term. If the FPP does make a comeback, it will probably be under very different conditions to previous intakes.

On Yammer (our internal social media board), the pilot recruitment team have said that next years intake will come from the remaining FPPs, the DEP hold pool and towards the end of the year, Whitetail cadets from CTC.

PressTheTit; don't panic, and for the love of god don't lower yourself to accepting inferior conditions just to fly for BA. It's a good place to work, but that is because of what it offers in terms of the overall pay and benefits package. You would actively be undermining everything that you think BA offers just to be a BA pilot. As for going to CTC for their post training AQC or whatever it's called now; don't. The pilot recruitment team have stated that whitetail cadets will only be selected after finishing ground school and before starting their flight training.

Why only CTC whitetails and not Oxford, Jerez et el? Well that's where my cynicism comes from regarding the position now held by the former head of short haul.

I'm more concerned with experience levels. I think it's great that a cross section of the pilot community are given a chance to work for a major airline whatever your background, but weighing to heavily on inexperienced white tales can't be the way forward. We need a good mix of DEP & cadets which keeps experience levels at a safe & sensible level. Clearly this is a financial move, unfortunately IAG are ruthless! Our airline that I'm proud to fly for is really being dragged through the mud at the mo due to AC. I wish he'd naff off to LEVEL... far more his bag!

To the current holdpoolers this is obviously very frustrating news but this is today's plan... all will change & with 20 plus retiring just this month I'm sure the need for DEP's will come back to fruition in the not too distant future!

Hey Wiggy.

No assault on BALPA intended. If new terms were introduced for DEP cadets I would have thought that any change to employment contracts would have to go through the union. Perhaps that's only the case for existing employees. BALPA looks after a wide demographic and it's never going to be possible to represent the margins. Straight up honesty we all look after ourselves then the group. PP24/PP34 NAPS/BARP etc etc.....you know what fair play that was the deal at the time. My interest is more towards having a strong and stable (Thanks Theresa) company over the argument of self funded type ratings etc. Yes I paid for mine and yes my salary was reduced for experience or lack of at my first employer.

EMB-145LR. Post 3902 That's all anyone needs to read. Spot on and almost the same as I witnessed in response to a colleagues questioning.

Just for clarity, my email says no DEP at all in 2018 - it makes no distinction between Type rated / Non type rated.

I was going to write about my opinions of CTC and how it applies to this situation, but have deleted the draft. The whole thing is just sad. I always thought that outside of its own Cadet scheme, BA valued experience for its crews. Obviously no longer. Race to the bottom intensifies.

Good luck everyone. Not sure where I go from here to be honest. It's not the "no recruitment" that stings, it's (if true) being passed over (once again) in favour of a 350 hour "white tail" hero with deep pockets and a debt to service.

I have to concur with the above post on this issue, the copy of the email sent to hold poolers that I have been party to makes no reference to either type rated/non type rated. It simply says that no one in the hold pool will get a start date in 2018. This email postdates any information about the recruitment plan on yammer so the stuff on there is already out of date.

Hugely disappointing. I'm well accustomed to the 'cost of everything, value of nothing' mentality at my current airline, but how sad to see the same now being applied at BA.

I've been through BA's highly unpleasant and convoluted recruitment process several times to get this far and now they want yet another interview. And when does this extra year in the pool even extend to? From our initial year, from 18 months...? I was due to expire mid next year - do I now expire mid 2019?

Either way, 2019 is a long way away, and with the prospect of a job offer becoming ever more speculative I imagine many in the pool will have taken other roads long before BA open the doors to DEP again. What a shame.

What am I missing? The email directly contradicts things that I and others (namely Wiggy) have heard directly from within the company, and it includes the caveat that everything is...

So why send an email out that will only disappoint/piss off people when it may well turn out to be inaccurate? Clearly there are greater forces at work behind the scenes...

Count me in the pissed off group. BA was always the goal, and I threw my heart and soul into the recruitment (the application for which went in a year ago today coincidentally) and now the goal posts continue to move. Assuming (brave, given their form!) that I might get an offer sometime early 2019, I'll be within a year of a command course where I am...

I personally think for all of those in the holdpool (including myself) it might be time to swallow the bitter pill and assume this time round it just wont happen. For the recruitment team to be bold enough to say at this stage they expect no offers to be made to those in the pool in 2018 means just that and they wouldnt send that message out without a strong belief in it based on whats infront of them. Like many (i assume) im gutted but i think being hopefull (especially at this stage) is probably more detrimental than positive.

Everything that's wrong with this industry neatly encapsulated in one sentence. How terribly sad.

Could not agree more. Offering to pay a TR undermines all of your future colleagues, and is the exact reason that BA and others are now going down a "white tail cadet" route.

Go and watch Tony Kerns 2014 CHC flight safety lecture on YouTube, he explains far more succinctly and eloquently what is happening here than I possibly could.

I agree.

I would also accept to pay for a type rating or bond scheme. Not because I'm an desperate or unhappy (I'm am one of the youngest Capt in my company) but because I have a long career ahead of me and happy to look at the bigger picture

Just a shame if I don't get the chance to prove it

Ouch, that hurts.

Draft rant deleted

I respect your comments.

You're "happy to look at the bigger picture"? A more deliciously ironic statement you could not had found.

I hear what you are saying and I actually don't blame you, it is easy to turn around from a position of relative comfort and throw stones at the guys following the same path, but you have to accept that this huge desire (desperation) you and others have will ultimately bring the house down on all our Ts&Cs.

And the problem is that BA know this.

Good luck and I hope you get what you want - but only on the present terms and conditions!

And when someone comes and undercuts you for your command, or Long Haul, or Part Time, or whatever your aspiration is? Is that ok, because they are "looking at the bigger picture"? What about those of us who are already rated? Are we shut out because we don't fit in the "bigger picture"?

This crab - bucket mentality absolutely stinks. This will be the third time in my career I've been passed over from hold pools in favour of CTC / zero hours cadets and it absolutely stinks. You stink.

For the record, I find the whole CTC cadet thing extremely distasteful (Oxford MPL even more so). However as long as the rules allow for dangerously low hour pilots to sit in the RHS (and hope that an issue doesn't require any experience to fall back on), then the gravy train will continue.

As much as it stinks, it is the reality! No amount of encouraging others not to do what you have probably already done will change anything.

I stand by my earlier comments, if I end up in the RHS £20k lighter then so be it. That is the reality everywhere else, and some!

Ok, so it's every man for himself. Gotcha.

And no, I've never paid for a rating. Or paid off a training bond to jump ship. More fool me.

The more I read on this thread the more I am happy with my decision to stay where I am. BA is heading the same way anyway. Once a beacon holding out against the race to the bottom, it appears they have just joined the race. I will loose the opportunity of long haul in the future but will have had a command many many many years earlier.

Absolutely. 10 years in and still coming second to zero hours cadets. I aspired to BA because I respected the company and for the future chance of LH. I would have left my LHS to do it. Not now.

Agreed

And for The record for those of you who jump down our throats for saying the truth. I believe we both are in the hold pool and worked hard to get here.

It's been like that at BA for most of my twenty years there. Get used to it.