No worries, especially since to original plan had the 767 gone by now!!

Always happy to be corrected. :ok:

If DEP to the A380 is going on and it is a cost game, as people have been saying (probably correctly), then why are A320 people being told not to expect long haul? Correct me if I'm wrong but Boeing/Embraer rated guys are going to have to do the full 6 week type rating course whereas A320 bods can get the rating done in two weeks max on a CCQ. Or is this a case of BA managing expectations for those in the pool?

Because the 320 fleet is in need of pilots. A320 rated with minimum training required. You would then use the guys you have to rate to go onto the LH fleet. 1 type rating but 2 new pilots.

I know at least 1 DEP going from 20 straight to 80.

Hi all,

Time to command in BA is presently about 6 months.

Regards

:eek:

Yep, not sure of "time in" but just the seniority number of the individual involved has caused more than a few jaws to drop ( mine included).

There will now no doubt be the debate about exactly why it has happened ( I suspect we can probably work it out why there was a lack of interest from many), but even so it looks like the old adage of bidding for what you want, or simply having a "punt", regardless of freeze, has had interesting consequences. I wonder how many of the slightly more senior are kicking themselves.......

at the moment it is a pulse and a hole in the proverbial:O

:ok:

Certainly looks a bit like that.

Looking at the experience required matrix in the Ops manual (health warning - which I may be completely missreading) it looks to me that as long as the pilot has 1000 hours command on the type in question then it is a case of ticking some licence/admin boxes and then passing the BA command course - which is certainly not a "given".............(there are other experience criteria, but that's probably the "fastest" track)

It will take time to see whether this is a "black swan" event precipitated by the current grumbles about short haul or whether the trend towards v junior short haul commands will continue. It will also be interesting to see if the individual actually gets to do his/her course, given the way the training programme changes over the year.

The annual bid results are out now, so I'm assuming course dates will be forthcoming, and as a result, joining dates.

However, how many of these 350 jobs are likely to be coming to fruition given the situation in the world right now. Events taking place this morning have just escalated things further!

I can't see us scaling back recruitment plans for the coming year. The only question now - will the guys who have been given long haul instead of short haul be miffed because their A320 new entrant colleagues are getting commands within a year? Ha ha ha

Good point GS, though before there's too much noise it's worth emphasising that this sub-one year time to command is only potentially be available to a few DEPs, and will only be repeated if this year's bidding pattern carries forward.

Hi all,

It's worth also noting that no part time contracts were offered this year. This means that there is a large amount of work that current pilots want to give up but can't. This will require more recruits next year to pick up this work.

Regards

No 'aspirational' part time is being granted but given the rumour of 700+ pilots applying for 'right to request', I don't think anyone expected 'aspirational' part time to get a look in this year. I think you will find unprecidented numbers of pilots will be getting part time in 2016...

Command requires 3500 total hours of which 2000 on AC <12t and 1500 BA hours.

2000hrs on aircraft <25t and 1 year in BA or 1000 P1 on type.

Bid for what you want. Two years ago I told people it would take me another 8 years or so for a command. Now I find myself being told I have an approved command bid and that I best get working because I will be getting a course.

In fairness I can see why people have not wanted it because the last 2-3 years has been a hard grind...........75% please :}

Well done Bex!

Should there be another 'or' in there. Essentially if you join as DEP (having flown, say, an Airbus for someone else as P2) you need 2000 hours for command. Is that correct? You only need the 3500 if your hours are on smaller things.

Edited to add I think your < should be a >

Not just me finds that matrix strangely written and a bit of a puzzle then ;), and almost impossible to put into text format here.

Unless you have 1000 hours in command time on the 320, in which case you're in the frame for a right to left immediately . Then again I guess if you've got 1000 P1 you'll have the >2000 hours on the airframe :confused:

That said whilst its worth knowing the numbers required, and therefore knowing what is possible, I would not assume low time commands are going to become the norm. I rather suspect that the results of this year's annual type/seat bid will act as a bit of a wake up call to those who didn't think it was worth bidding for a command this year (I actually suspect there more than a few people going around kicking themselves or the cat over this year's results). Then again in twelve months time I'll no doubt be proven wrong - again.....

I agree with you about the inequalities...

And yes, well done bex

Or, it could be just that those with no seniority on the A320 are the only ones with nothing to lose swapping seats.

If you have a couple of years, then you can probably/maybe get out of short haul soon.....

That's true to some extent, but if normal bidding patterns return in the future years anyone very junior going Right to Left on the 320 this year is potentially going to spend a heck of a long time at or near the bottom of the status list.

There are absolutely staggering numbers of people going from right to left on the Airbus. I counted over 115 people getting commands who've yet to serve 5 years in the company. With those numbers I can't see how they can afford to release any FO off to long haul.

The recruitment team are gearing up for road shows looking for DEPs onto LH.

I think that's quite an important point actually. Bottom of the list on short haul is about as bad as it gets with a life of permanent blind lines and working every weekend. Perhaps survivable for a year or so (as would be the normal run of events) but for 5 years plus!?

I wonder if the junior bods who bid for C32L gave that much thought. More money etc but at what price!

With very short time to command, A320 is probably becoming a lot more relevant for a lot of current Ezy captains. Assuming 2-3 years from joining to command, what sort of salary are you looking at then? All the references I could find have been for FOs and PPJN has information from 2008.

I'm not surprised, I don't think anyone has ever really thought about, let alone published in the public domain, the basic of BA captains on Paypoints 1-4 ish........:eek: :eek:

I'm sure the truth really is out there...ll see if I can find anything.

edit to add: found these from 2013 , A320 LHR captain basic, points 1-5 with PP1 at top, in STG

69,092
70,965
72,839
74,712
76,586

Thank you, Wiggy. Am sure more than just me are interested in the numbers for the decision making, although BA is for lifestyle.

Captain 34 point pay scale on SH valid 2015

Year 1 72,092 GBP
Year 5 79,912 GBP
Year 10 89,687GBP

In addition you get Flight duty pay 660gbp (?) per month, plus allowances which is 1000-1500per month depending on how hard you work.

BA is, indeed, a good choice for lifestyle. But not if you take an airbus command after 2 or 3 years (even if you think this will be possible, which I'm not convinced about in future years).

All that is going to happen next year is that a lot of senior people are going to take another look at short haul command and realise they are suddenly a lot more senior, relatively, than they would have been this year.

As was mentioned a few posts ago, those really junior pilots getting short haul commands this year could very well end up on blind lines with no weekends off for years. For some that won't matter, but if you have a family it very well might.

What is the seat freeze duration? 5 years again?

Can't they bid back into the RHS again if they're that dis-enfranchised at that stage?

They can indeed bid back to the RHS of a long haul fleet at a later date. This is what a lot of people used to do until the NAPS command taxation made it a really financially foolish thing to do. One of the reasons short haul commands have gone so junior is that NAPS members are unwilling to sit in short haul as a Captain for an unknown period of time (waiting for a long haul command), and they no longer have the option of going right to left more than once due to the taxation penalty being applied twice if you do.

For those asking about command pay scales, FO payscales are 75% of Captain's pay at all paypoints and on all fleets. It is very simple.

FWIW I do know of at least one very well thought out voluntary LHS to RHS on the same fleet. However it was a few years ago, before pensions and tax got so complicated and was done very late on in the individual's career.

I think doing it these days, and in mid career, would expose the individual to the sorts of financial penalties that GS-Alpha has highlighted .

2015 captain scales on PP34

1) 72092
5) 79912
10) 89687
20) 109236
34) 136605

The 'flying pay' figure quoted above is about £4200 greater than reality and, on short haul at least, you'd have a very busy night stopping month to achieve the quoted £1200. I'd suggest averaging it would be close to impossible.
If you don't know the numbers don't pretend you do.

Completely agree. Short Haul flying pay about 8k pa and monthly allowances £600 - £900 per month on short haul depending on number of night stops

I imagine it's for varied reasons, but why has BA shorthaul (especially commands it seems) become so unpopular v LH over the last couple of years. The basic job (plenty of nightstops around Europe, slightly less pay v LH, earlies, etc.) has not changed much as far as I know. Is it just the increased "efficiency" (workload) alone or other factors?

Interview dates
 

Can anyone help with interview booking.... the site only offers a few dates just within the next couple of weeks. Does this mean that these are the only dates that will be available to me, or if I wait will further dates become available in the future e.g. in January?

Thanks!

ManUtd1999

In the absence of an authoritative reply to your post so far from one of the short haul people on here the best I can do is give you an idea of the main grumbles that get aired, either verbally or on another forum:

1. Short haul moved onto EASA compliant FTLs a while back, so yes, "efficiences" seem to have played a part.

2. As part of yet another round of cost savings BALPA agreed a change in the "Duty rig" for shorthaul, which seems to have meant short haul pilots are doing long duty days hanging around in the bowels in T5 between sectors with no increase in pay/flying.

3. Short haul get an almost daily clobbering by the BA LHR lifestyle...aircraft changes and /or terminal changes/security :uhoh:

4. The perception that there is soon going to be a rapid increase in the rate of upwards movement across the seniority lists. The higher seniority short Haul P2's can see they will soon be in the frame for a move to Long haul if they want it, and many of the Long Haul P2s can see they will soon the frame for a Long Haul Command. Neither group will want to jeopardise that by incurring a freeze on the A320 by taking a Short Haul command......

I must emphasise that's my perception of what in the main has precipitated the current state of affairs, as a Long Hauler who has talked to Long Haul P2s about the how's and why's of their bidding logic. It will be interesting to see what the the guys who are actually "living the dream" think..:E

Pretty much hit's the nail on the head for me too.

I would also add that as the LHS demographic for LH fleets is toward the younger end, thanks in part to the Prestwick cadets, then the older SFO's on the LH fleets wouldn't see a move back from LHS SH to LHS LH in their time.

Lifestyle choices are shaping many more peoples careers now days rather than the 'climb to command' greasy pole (certainly a large majority of those SFO's with previous Command experience!). :ok:

wiggy and Wirb have it about right.

Beyond the Prestwick cadets, there is also another bulge of cadets from the late 90s who are now starting to achieve longhaul commands. Some are not even 40, giving up to 25 years in the left seat of a longhaul jet, starting now.

Can't argue with any of the above. As a SH RHS to LHS move in 2016 I agree with everything that is being said. My reason behind staying on SH when I have the seniority to go LH RHS again is a lifestyle one. With youngish children and 32 years till retirement right now I would like to be at home a bit more. I don't mind the SH life but it is hard. I plan on going 75% in a few years. By doing that my take home pay will be more or less the same as now but I will be there for my family. In the long future ahead I may then bid LH RHS once the kids have grown up to enjoy the travel with my misses with a view to a short wait to a LH LHS.

That's the plan but if that actually pans out I would be quite surprised.

Wiggy's point 4 sums it up for me too. Looking at the bid results most of the 2011 intake (the most junior unfrozen bidders) have chosen to go to LH, and the 2011 DEPs onto the 747 have also elected to stay LH. So that's an entire years worth of recruits who (mainly) have decided against a SH command.

It doesn't surprise me in the slightest high and middle seniority LH P2s' are sitting tight. They have a combination of a good income with a more sustainable workload and lifestyle. Let's see what changes come in the next few years with Easa and BA "optimisation".

Judging by the comments on the company forum it has bruised a few egos amongst one or two SH captains who obviously feel their position should be aspired to by every lowly co-pilot! The reality is people have bid for what they want, and right now in BA, short haul is proving deeply unpopular.