You're missing the point.

Without some kind of bidding system no-one will ever get anything they want
(time off or destinations) , whereas the company can roster as it likes to EASA limits.

It seems to me the modern world you refer to is zero hours contracts and no protection from ruthless employers.

I know which i'd rather have!

There are many the whole way up the seniority list who have not got what they bid for because they are in type freezes.

BA have always recruited DEP to LH, and generally held people to freezes. None of this should be a surprise. It's not like they're holding anyone back (on the 320) which I imagine BA would dearly like to.

What you're arguing for is zero freezes at all. ie: If someone junior (in this case it happens to be DEPs) get a move to a fleet you bid for then so should you regardless of any freeze. Not enjoying the 747 you bid for last year? Doesn't matter, you can bid onto the 380/777 anytime you like because someone junior but unfrozen got it.

Why is the engagement freeze a special case?

Secondly where is the sim and training pilot capacity going to come from for these extra few hundred A320 courses you just created? They're already outsourcing a fair chunk of the work to CTC as we don't have enough sims or IRE/TREmfor this level of movement.

For starters I do realize that different people have different problems, but here's mine: Since the email about no NTR 320 courses will be available went out yesterday I'm potentially stuck on a turboprop for a no future company earning barely half the entry level wage of a BA anything pilot even though I've had years and years in my company. Why? Because even though I'm high up the hold pool list I got leapfrogged by people with a rating (which I do understand), but more importantly by people with a rating who initially failed in different stages of the recruitment but got called back to retake just parts of it even though I worked hard and managed to pass everything straight off the bat...

I get that it's a cost thing and I get that it's a training capacity thing, but it sure feels more unfair and more of a problem than someone being :mad: off because of the fact that they were offered 320 and someone they know got straight in to LH. Perspective, people.... I'll be very disappointed for a while for sure since my career goal was about to be fulfilled, but hopefully the "this situation may, however, change" will come in to force sooner rather than later.

Oh bloody hell. Cry me a river :{

Ex-BMI Airbus guys leapfrogging frozen Airbus guys onto LH. Now we're talking unfair. But what can you do?

I think it is worth pausing for a moment and remember what BMI bought to the table-- 30 aircraft enabling the LGW 737 fleet to be replaced,new routes,but more importantly the daily slot increase (around 55),enabling BA to expand its long haul route structure,so much so that time to command has tumbled and BA taking on record numbers of Pilots securing everyones future.
The expansion is so great that company is struggling to crew flights on some days,and the Biblical size profits is reflecting this.

Maybe some ex-BMI guys are"Leapfrogging" onto long haul but that was the deal at the time( which BALPA agreed )of the take over,so without those BMI slots the Company would be stagnating.

Sometimes life is not always fair but in the big scheme of things a few "Leapfroggers" is a small blip in a life long career.

I guess there is a clue as to why so many people don't want the Airbus,and bid off it asap.

The ex-BMI guys were offered promotion from RHS to LHS in accordance with their relative seniority in BMI so an FO who was close to command in BMI would get his command in approximately the same time as if he had stayed in BMI.

As BMI was operating the A330 they were also granted alleviation for out of mainline seniority transfers to LH in accordance with their pilot percentage against main line. I think about 5%-7% allowed early transfer as they would have realistically expected to go to the 330 within BMI.

It's a little hard to grumble about what was, after all, agreed upon the acquisition.

Otto, I remember how it felt to be in the hold pool (albeit not for as long as some others) and sympathise with how you're feeling. That being said, your email confirming the outcome of the sim assessment which confirmed your entry into the hold pool, probably said something along the lines of "when matched with a position you will be contacted with the details of the available position". The key words being "when matched". I know it's hard, after my (relatively brief) time doggy paddling in the pool, I had absolutely no nails left and was desperate to get the magic call. But in the mean time, chin up and try to relax. Publicly grumbling about your tales of woe in the pool isn't helping.

We were all told, including you I'm sure, that there are jobs for everyone that passes the process. That remains true but the strain on the training department is enormous at the moment. Be patient and keep smiling.

ATB,

2W2R

Right, it's easy to be misunderstood sometimes I guess. I was not whining nor was I expecting much sympathy since I know there are plenty of people out there who would be more than happy to be in my position. What I was trying to explain was that for everyone complaining about how they are frozen on SH or someone leapfrogging them for a LH position there is a lot worse places to be. And from my point of view, they know how it is working in BA because they're already in BA and still they come on to the forum complaining while we ALL have to accept the BA way of handling things, even people being leapfrogged in the pool. I'm sorry if I came across as negative about my own situation (which I to a certain point am) but that has nothing to do with the BA hold pool rather my current employer. I am however a bit annoyed that people can fail the process and then get called back and then go before people who passed it the first time (although I do believe in second chances) but the post was really about "there's always someone that would do anything to be in your place". Hence the, different people have different problems part...

I hope we have no more misunderstandings and no more pathetic "boo hoo" comments as that isn't exactly productive even if I would have been whining... :ok:

....On a slightly different note!

Regarding the flight capacity test on day 2 (ECAM/NAV simulation) what do they ask for in terms of descent calculations (E.G. Miles from waypoint to TOD or Rate of descent to be level by waypoint)? I heard they don't give whole flight levels?

Anyone on here been through recently who knows the answer?

chazzypuk11,

If I remember correctly, you could be at FL227 and asked to descend to FL193 to be level in exactly 3 minutes or level by a waypoint. The flight test is ok, but be prepared to come back with an answer quickly otherwise it'll descend for you and you could miss something else that's important.

This is on day 1 though.

With the greatest of respect, that is the BA way. They understand cost and little else. "Fair" is not of any relevance to them.

Misery
 

What about the BEA takeover of Northeast. Some people think that was jolly unfair but then there was the BA takeover of BCAL & then there's Danair. Perhaps you should all study history. Life is never fair to everyone, so get on with your life. Be grateful for what is offered & if you don't like it, don't join!

Many individuals have submitted themselves to an exacting succession of assessments recently for BA pilot recruitment. They have been given the chat: "jobs for everyone who makes the grade". They have duly done as they were bid and made the grade. They have then been told that they will need to enter the hold pool until they can be allocated TR courses and they have cheerfully agreed and exercised an appropriate degree of patience, understanding the 'unprecedented' recruitment requirements.

These people have shown good faith, however BA are now executing a reverse-ferret, conducting emergency expectation management. Meanwhile people with the right ticket, many of whom, frankly, didn't 'make the grade' first time round are getting in ahead of them.

There are of course good, commercial reasons for BA to do this. When you are cancelling flights due to lack of pilots you of course have to make harsh choices. But I'm not pleased to hear hold-poolers getting told to suck it up. They were made promises that aren't being fulfilled and are definitely getting seen off here.

The point is not that it is unfair. It is.

The point is this is how BA now operates. It is a money-making subsidiary of a giant corporate monolith (IAG), a monolith whose only interest is that its subsidiaries are profitable. IAG is largely uninterested in how those profits are generated. Emotion does not even compute. If you think it's likely to be much different once you're in, you may want to look elsewhere.

BA will recruit whoever is the most cost-effective for them. End of discussion. :sad:

I didn't write that to have a go at BA (I did say I understood their current policy) or indeed those who got a second go, day 1 assessment is indeed pretty arbitrary. I just don't like some of the dismissive comments against the hold-poolers who have a point and wish to express it on here - I mean, where else are they going to vent?!

I have to completely disagree with plastic.

It's not about being lucky or not. If a company opens its recruitment and that enables people to apply, typed or not, then if they pass that process and are made aware throughout that their is a job for them, then that's the end of it. Why is that lucky? That's the industry.... It's about timing. This issue of 'call backs' jumping ahead is a contentious one. If you pass first, second or third time, you deserve to get in. Ultimately 'business need' trumps it all and BA like any other business has to balance things.

Nothing externally has, as far as I am aware, reduced the requirement for pilots, just that the goal posts have changed. That's life and occurs in every industry. We have to be resilient and appreciate this is the industry we chose to enter knowing how volatile it can be. Hold poolers (like me) will wait patiently and see how things develop. I am of the opinion that they will need non typed pilots, just that the wait will be longer.

I am however amazed at some of the comments on this forum. We are all in this together. We have all been through the mill at some stage so I think respect for all is required. BA needs pilots, priorities have altered and capacity is maxed out, but let's all try and respect each other's circumstances and appreciate that if you decide to go through the process and pass, irrespective of your background then, you hope that you will end up in BA and I'm sure those in recruitment will hope that is the case too.

I understand Father Jack. But we all have our own troubles. What about those guys sat in the pool who are desperate for a long haul position - giving up the chance of an imminent command at easyJet to apply for BA purely because they want the lifestyle that long haul brings them - only to now receive an email saying that despite the fact there's actually a "significant number" of long haul vacancies, you're not likely to get one because you're A320 rated!

Cue five years stuck on short haul with the very real chance of being stuck again in five years time whilst DEP's are recruited to long haul ahead of them!

Now imagine how this reads to the Flybe/Eastern guy just desperate to get off turboprops!

Plastic787

When you applied for BA you understood it was for the baby bus, during which time circumstance has changed and now there is a need for long haul pilots.

I'm afraid timing is everything in this industry but surly you must be grateful to get the BA gig?

If you are so desperate for long haul why don't you apply to Air tanker? They are looking for pilots and flying long haul!

A320baby, you are completely missing my point. The non type rated guys in the pool were applying for an A320 position too, not a long haul one. Yet they are now in the frame for a long haul slot whereas the A320 rated are somehow not eligible. The point being these things are inherently unfair, so the moaning should take place somewhere else.

Moan all you want, it's all about capacity.

To release a current BA A320 pilot from SH to LH involves the LH conversion course and then a SH course for his DEP replacement into SH.

A DEP LH requires a LH conversion course.

One less course in a system where simulators, trainers and capacity are at maximum.

Join when you can, put up with SH, move over to LH and find yourself already further up the list than if you transferred today.

Conversion courses cost A LOT of money and, in the current climate where capacity is severely limited on certain fleets, cost is king over internal bidders I'm afraid. IAG thus BA will go for the cheapest option.

It's quite funny to see how the pilot community can be so hypocritical sometimes. There's always a lot of moaning about people who do self sponsored type ratings and P2F takers and how they are ruining the industry for everyone else. Now the same people tell the turboproppers and others who worked their way up without taking financial shortcuts that they shouldn't moan when someone who effectively did just that passed them in the queue to potentially the best job in the business. I'm not saying that the takers of self sponsored ratings did anything wrong but it would be nice if everyone else could pick a side and at least stick to it?

For the recruitment process it self, people on here keep repeating the mantra of "their train set, their rules" to which I fully agree. However, the recruitment process is de facto their rules for letting someone join and now they are not following their own rules by letting people retake parts not only on day one but also day two and sim sessions. I agree that day one is quite arbitrary in many ways, but it also shows a bit who has been preparing and worked for it IMHO. I'm all for the fact that they have to check costs, otherwise you can't survive in todays cutthroat world but when they are breaking their own rules I think we could all be allowed to have a bit of a moan if we're victims of it, especially when there are so many people moaning about not getting their preferred fleet or their preferred trips.

Quite simply it's down to supply and demand.

With changes to Bidline, pensions, pay-points and the work load that is SH and the associated freeze the company, using it's own processes, hasn't got the intake it requires.

Hence, adapt and overcome. Change the requirements, as set by the company itself, and look at alternatives.

At the end of the day it is your date of joining that sets your future in BA for just about everything, not which fleet you join on. You will be able to move eventually and then you take up the same position as if you had gone as a DEP except, perhaps, without the years of being at the bottom.

That's how I've always seen it, see it however you will.

Hi all,


At the risk of adding fuel to the fire of the conversation above, we have been asked to spread news of the following.

BA are gearing up for a huge recruitment year next year, with a significant number of DEP vacancies on the longhaul fleets. They will shortly begin a roadshow tour of the UK, which will be starting at Gatwick on 30th November. They are happy to see people who just want to come down and hear more about longhaul specifically, or are just toying with the idea of applying to BA. See the link below:

https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/briti...85832?ref=estw

The following information is included in the link:

We are actively recruiting now and for 2016 we envisage over 350 pilots joining the fraternity, with over half of these vacancies requiring direct entry onto our longhaul fleets. We're coming out to meet experienced pilots who are interested in finding out more about what we have to offer in what we hope will be a relaxed and informal setting. The presentations are aimed at experienced pilots including those who hold type ratings on any of the aircraft BA currently operates or has on order.

At this time, we are not seeking attendees who are low-hour or trainee pilots, but if you fall into one of these categories we'd be delighted to meet you at one of the other events we support including Pilot Careers Live, formerly the Flyer Professional Flight Training Exhibition.


My opinion is (and it is only that) is that if you have a 320 rating that is what you will be offered. If you have any other rating and meet the LH requirements you will probably be offered LH. If you don't meet either of the above then you will sit in the pool until a 320 slot opens that can't be filled by a TR guy or a cadet.

LH requirements are:

1. 500 hours or 100 sectors on a relevant* aeroplane type.

*The Part-FCL definition of a relevant type of aeroplane is a multi-pilot turbo-jet aeroplane certificated to the standards of CS-25 or equivalent airworthiness code or on a multi-pilot turbo-prop aeroplane having a maximum certificated take-off mass of not less than 10 tonnes or a certificated passenger seating configuration of more than 19 passengers.

2.ATPL(A) with Class 1 medical and 2000 hours including 1000 hours on Jet transport category aircraft with MTOM greater than 25 tonnes or multi-crew turboprop transport aircraft/military equivalent with MTOM greater than 50 tonnes. Turbo-prop experienced conversions must be approved by Head of flight trainig.


I hope this information is of help even if its not the answers that are hoped for. Be aware that if you turn down an A320 slot you may get another later offer of an A320 with a higher (worse) seniority.

Regards

The above is excellent news for anyone joining now on any fleet as they will progress rapidly up the seniority roster in relation to those who join in the future.

That position you are given upon joining the company will dictate your fleet, bidding position and command opportunities for your time in the company.

When you do move from SH to LH, after getting used to being able to achieve your trip lines on SH, rapid recruitment, especially onto LH as DEP will, potentially, see you straight onto trip lines on the LH fleet instead of having to go back to blind lines again. Every cloud and that...

Always, always, always remember your date of joining is king in BA.

Enjoy.

:)

Thanks Pudoc!

Fraternity so no hope for any of our female colleagues then 😒

I had an E-mail yesterday to the same effect. Leaves me a tad nervous as a service leaver without the long haul requirements (or type rating). Any other military hold pool swimmers here heard any good news?

Monquay,

There are separate requirements for ex-service personnel. What experience do you have?

Fast-Jet (unfortunately in this case!) so frozen ATPL only. it did mean I could apply and am into the hold pool, but I suspect it leaves me less than ideally placed given the current slots and costs to train (can't blame them, just a bit of a pain!).

Yep, sorry but you don't qualify for ZFT onto LH on either weight or unfrozen ATPL so it'll be SH for you. :)

1500 hours to unfreeze will take about 2-3 years max! Who knows what happens after that!

That's very true! As long as I can get in in the first place! I am hopeful as I have been looking forward to this new challenge for a while. I can stick with my nail biting until next Autumn before I panic too much, hopefully better news for the SH non-type rated folk by then.

Father Jack/OttoMatic - well said both. I guess the frustration would be lower had BA made clear offers were not guaranteed but were type and background dependent. The job advert in fact does make the preference for you rated candidates clear but the various pronouncements regarding "jobs for all" from members of the recruitment team have been counterproductive. However, Those of you who say BA are solely profit-driven should try working for a real low-cost airline. You ain't seen nothing!

Regarding the places that are available, are offers likely for the 767 still or is it mainly 777/787 with the odd 747 and 380?

It's a very well trodden path, trust me. ;)

No 767, it's a dying fleet.
777/787 yes.
747 yes
380 I would guess that there are more than enough internal applicants plus they have some.....'interesting' requirements for the 380 (must be previously airbus qualified)

Ammended:

There is a requirement for DEP's onto the 380 apparently.

Has anyone received any offer since the email was sent? Just wondering when one could possibly expect a call.

And Im guessing being rated on one of BA's LH fleet almost guarantees that, if the offer does eventually arrive, it will be for that fleet?

Having done most of my research relating to the 320, could somebody give an indication of the current bottom of the list blind lines rosters on the 787, and 777. Anything would be VERY appreciated!

Thanks

Hi guys.

Good to hear that BA is hiring so many pilots this year.

Does anyone have any information about the pilotneed for the years after 2016? Im A320 TR and in the hold pool at the moment. Would be great senioritywise if this recruitment will continue.

Brgds,

NLP

As a lowly TP driver who's been in the pool for quite a while...

I'm not bothered by rated people getting start dates ahead of me. It makes absolute sense for BA to take as many rated people as they can, as they'll be on the line far quicker.

I'm not bothered by guys with less hours than me but with a bit of jet time getting long-haul slots. Someone, somewhere has decided that the limit for those types is x amount of jet hours. That's cool. I can very much understand the frustrations of those on the A320 fleet that may be denied the opportunity to move on however.

I'm not bothered with on-going recruitment - there are a lot of seats to fill across all types.

What bothers me is the real possibility that after doing my very best to pass each stage of the assessment process, being told that 'there are jobs for all' and that 'nobody will get left behind', that I will not get to join BA after all. That really, really worries me.

Blueskyrich,

From what I can gather it is all down to training capacity on the Bus. They've had to contract out as it is as they are behind due to the sim moves to TBA.

I'm sure your time will come. I know they are looking at the hold pool to try and empty it.

The 767 is indeed a dying fleet, but it's not dead yet. Recently heard that recruitment onto the fleet will continue for the short-medium term. This allows people further up the list to depart for pastures new.

Of course this comes with the usual health warning that accompanies all rumours. But never say never.

Hi all,

I am reluctant to contradict Wirblesturm, but as 2W2R says recruitment for the 767 is continuing, at 2-4 a month for the forseeable future. Now as it is 1730 on Fri night that probably only takes us until 0830 on Mon morning :ugh:. New Trainers are being trained to help with the training and allow other trainers to move to other fleets to help with training there.

New recruits onto the 767 allow the senior FOs to move off. Beware that the fleet is due to shut in 2018 so people joining now will still be within their engagement freeze so BA could send you wherever they want. It could be longhaul but it could be to the A320.

Regards