Hi mate can you please empty your inbox apparently it’s full as my message won’t send regarding BA stuff over PM

Well said Buter, I have always wondered how people can do nothing but moan yet at the same time not be part of the organisation that is trying, with varying degrees of success, to maintain or improve our lot. Complain about JSS... did you vote for it? No, not a manner of BALPA, ergo can’t really complain because you aren’t invested enough in the future to actually be in the recognised union take part.

Daddy. BA shorthaul is no where near the toughest gig in the U.K. For example I haven’t done a 4 sector day for a good 2 years, other than in disruption I haven’t landed after midnight for a similar time, I get fed, I stay in great hotels, I work for the company (rather than be a contractor) and thus get a good pension (yes I know it’s not what it used to be but show me one that is) etc etc etc. There is a lot of BA bashing on here, there are always a vocal few but I wonder what the feeling would be like if you went into the CRC and took a quick poll? A fair bit of dissatisfaction but what percentage of people would up sticks and move jobs..

Not all rosy in the garden I hear Buter.
SH Capt doing great work for the Training dept? I thought it was a LH TC doing that?
I hear a number of LH TCs are considering resigning from BALPA.
Pay rise for all ?

DF,
Like choosing a mortgage picking an airline is a compromise.
For some EZY is a better proposition than BA for others it isn’t.
You have to think long term. For some nights in their own bed is important for others nightstopping on LH destinations is attractive. Then again some favour nights in other people’s beds.

Think long term, the hassle to swap airlines can be great. What you want today could be v different to what you want in your mid 50s.

The evidence would suggest, in the main with notable exceptions, that pilots gravitate to LH and only return to SH for a command and then go back to LH at the earliest opportunity. When considering EZY over BA whatever lifestyle suits you now or even what you think will suit you in the future may change.
The comparison of seniority numbers for commands on various fleets in BA is telling as to what the majority of people consider the best place to be is.

In BA 85% is fine ( well perhaps good)
10% is irritating/frustrating/bad
5% of it is a nightmare.

For starters, you may not be talking about me but seeing as the context of this conversation is a rebuttal of my comments I’ll assume that you are. Where was I complaining about JSS? I actually have a suspicion for some short haulers it’s going to be better as it gets rid of the problem that in Bidline 95% of the lines are a mixture of daytrips and tours which satisfy virtually nobody. But the crux of it is that I wasn’t even allowed to vote on my future be it JSS or Bidline because I hadn’t been in the company long enough! How unjust is that? Yeah you’ve got thirty years left here but you’re not allowed to have a say in how that will go because you’ve only been here a few months.

It’s my conscious decision to have left the Union, which I am entitled to have made as a grown adult. It doesn’t deserve condescending comments like being called “son” or the seemingly resentful accusation of “riding our coattails”. I’m not going to make any further comments as to my perception of those who hide behind anonymity to talk down so severely to someone on an Internet forum, I’ll just leave it there.

Lets see just how successful the pay negotiations are, I’ll be happy to be proved wrong (and it might even sway my decision whether to rejoin or not) but I’m expecting RPI plus a bit, which in context isn’t really that much of a result, some may even say it would be subpar compared to other companies recently.

Rex
I can see clearly could be in breach of the trade descriptions act.
Buter is well Buter. He may do us all some good we’ll have to wait and see.

DF,
LH is not all bad on family life. The problem is foreseeing what you will want in 20 years time when it’s too late to change.

Thats it spot on. It is a challenge. I didn’t think to reply to Mr Angry, unless you’ve tried LH, it is a bit of a mystery.

Similar to you mention, whether you adjust to local or not the elephant in the room isn’t the jet lag per say on a 3 day quick fire trips (local light sources, diet, rhythmn of local life) more the rest periods run in multiples of 24 hours. A bit like shift work problems. Means you can’t sleep two proper periods in 24 (unless you’re super human). So like you say, no matter what you do, on a 24 hour layover you’re missing a sleep cycle.

Mr Angry’s post mentioned striving for recovery on company time. The achievable is quite the opposite. Due to previously mentioned rest periods (24/48) that are antagonistic to the circadian rhythm, far from being able to recover on Co time, your time “on clock” is actively further disrupting your sleep cycle each time you undertake another 24/48 rest. Attempting recovery is forced onto days off. And this is where it can become a somewhat futile pursuit; dual aspects of limited time to achieve this and another shift reversal to adjust for within a small time frame. There is often not enough time to recover the sleep deficit and then re adjust your now night shift cycle back to days. Particularly on 2 days off, and noteably if one has any semblance of local life around him/her that is following U.K. time that may detract from a free ability to sleep when required. And that is even before days off are considered to be free of fatigue issues enough to be downtime in their own right; in essence, to experience required personal time free from work inflictions enough to enjoy all the psychological benefits that bestows. After all, we’re not machines!

This is not a unique BA characteristic, however BA do have an increasingly achievable high personal pilot annual hours work rate for a euro LH airline. I’ve noticed it a lot on my fleet with the work rate at the moment with not common rosters characterised with runs of 2 days off post trip. This increasingly effective ability to utilise its worker units (an open question with a new rostering system) is - despite industrial agreements forged in good faith under a different landscape - amplifying the empirically flawed and questionable ethics of the underpinning regulatory protection system that manages humans working for the flying industry.

I find it insightful to at least know and discuss the mechanics of why fatigue starts really ramping up on LH with a packed roster. It’s for differing reasons than SH.

Interesting, I read a study from the FAA mentioned something like no duty must be planned unless it’s conceivable that the Pilot has had a chance to gain 6 hours (or was it 8?) sleep within the preceding 24 hours. I gather this includes the whole duty. So you can’t be landing at 0900 unless between 0900 the day before and then, you’d slept fully and not half arsed on a seat for an hour. If that were the case then most 24 hour lay overs would fall foul of that one. I’ll be honest I don’t know the FAA FTL regs.

350. + new entrants read next year,700 courses total,50 Commands LGW 320, 80 LHR SH 70 LH

Buter. I think a good number feel as though they are not represented by the union and therefore left or decided not to join. It’s not easy, how does a union represent any pilot on the extreme ends of the seniority scale? The union represents its members and I can only feel the demographic of that membership is to the higher end of the seniority list. I could well be very wrong but it’s how it sounds out there. The junior guys also have themselves to blame because they don’t have a voice or chose to leave. A union that reached out to them and acknowledge their demographic may find a receptive bunch who are happy to support the union. They just need to see that the union actually is wanting to work for them too.

i believe we will soon have SH captains on perhaps PP 2 or 3. That’s 83k. Jet2 is now 106k basic, RYR 109k basic and EZY DEC 105k basic. That’s how far we have fallen behind. RPI plus a few % is maybe ok for some but not across the board. A320 captains basic pay starts at 78k and goes up to 148k. How can we continue to pay two pilots doing the same job such vastly different salaries. I have always found it odd that BA showers you with cash once your kids have left home and you have paid your mortgage. It makes no sense in the modern world. The pay needs a huge shake up and when I say that I don’t mean let’s cut the pay of the guys at the top.

When you see and hear guys laughing about JSS “junior shafting system” and “that’s it I will never work another weekend” it does not make you believe we are united in any way. I flew with one guy who said of the junior guys “f£#k them, they can do the ****, I have been here longer than them and deserve to choose” chuckles “I bid for weekends off even when I have nothing to do just so they don’t get them”. Honestly he made my blood boil.

A lot of good points well made, though since Buter (and even I thick old me could work out who he was BTW) is one of the new “intake” to the BACC I’d certainly hope criticism at what and who went before isn’t aimed at him personally....no pressure there on the new guys to deliver...no, none at all.....! !!

That’s certainly very unfortunate but I’ll make the observation that from the lofty heights it has always been kind of hard to understand the enthusiasm some junior colleagues have for JSS... I think if and when JSS gets sorted and once the senior pilots have got their heads around the bidding logic the Junior pilots could quite possibly be shafted vs. how they fared under Bidline...but it certainly isn’t a laughing or chuckling matter... ( and no, I didn’t vote for it).

BTW personally with kids no longer at home like quite a few senior guys I’m quite happy to work weekends ..these days it’s not when I work, it’s where I go.

Hi Bex,
i don't mean to sound harsh but I can’t let that go.
You ask how BA can pay different salaries for the same job. You say shake up, but not to cut the pay of guys at the top.
You infer your union doesn’t represent some ( you?) but with impossible requirements like that, is there any wonder?
I don’t mean to be disrespectful but this forum is to help those looking for jobs. Your views are heartfelt and honest but need to be taken in context to give balance.
For those who haven’t read through all 263 pages here Bex if I remember previous postings correctly joined BA with the bmi takeover so didn’t apply to BA but through no fault of his own ended up here. . He is a junior SH capt. He’s made no secret of not being happy in BA. That in itself is good evidence as to whether BA is a good place to be or not. Bex has also made no secret of looking for other jobs but as far as I can n tell he’s still with BA. That’s good evidence too.
The low pay for junior A320 capts is a quirk but we have high pay for senior P2s. BA has historically worked on a longevity pay system. Whatever the pros and cons it’s what we have. Changing it will be v complex and will probably blow BA BALPA apart.
I don’t see how BA can be expected to “shake up” and level the pay without reducing the higher payscales for both P1 and P2. P1 SH would go senior and P2 LH would go junior. It would only be fair for senior P2s to have a bid for P1 SH but what do they do when all slots are filled? Should more junior P1s be forced into the RHS ? What other option would be fair? Ironically Bex wouldn’t see his bumper pay rise, just a type and seat change. BA would expect that to be nil cost so take the conversion course costs out of the pay budget. Oh and hold recruitment we will have so many internal moves and command courses the training system can’t cope.
And that hopefully brings it back onto recruitment.
One thing often overlooked is that a PP15 P2 when taking a command becomes a PP15 capt. In many airlines you drop to PP1 capt.

Sudden Twang. It does not sound harsh to be honest. I have on balance said BA is a good place to work but it’s really really crap at the bottom. It seems to be a company where the employees are only increasing the seniority gradient. Don’t get me wrong there is a place for it, but when it negatively impacts to such an extent on day to day life I don’t think that is right. The pay problem (first world problem agreed) for P1 is something that is not the fault of BA or the union because as you say normally you went in at PP15. With the improved conditions elsewhere the opportunity to address this should be considered. SFO’s on long haul? well I guess like all of us they have a bid next year too. It would be up to them. For the record though a friend of mine is LH part time and his take home exceeds mine (sometimes he does overtime) on full time and he would not ever come back to SH.

For those considering BA a good point was raised. Why have I not left? There are a few factors and primarily that is hope. Hope that it will get better, hope that JSS would improve things, the possibility to change fleets, the options of part time. The overriding factor though is I don’t really want to leave. I like BA, I like where I live but it is a real strain on family and relationships. There is no hiding from it and I always point to rostering.

Re reading the above I should have just said “what has BA ever done for us?” My wife is right I can be a grumpy git 😂

Rossbaku. Don’t put your mortgage on it being 767.The brief gives pitch/ power settings for 744 RR and GE and if 767 is tech you will be briefed for 744,Good luck.