Shocking!
For me, like applying to the RAF, joining BA was a serendipitous accident; I could have been a turbine driver in a power station y'know

The performance (:rolleyes:) of the Gentlemen's International Transport has been mentioned and, if you recollect the approx 'benefit' of Mil Ops, a comment may be appropriate at:
https://www.pprune.org/tech-log/6057...l#post10063533

Reading People are leaving can only be a good thing for those of us here to stay. BA is my 3rd airline having done charter & ME before, there are many things BA get wrong but also many positives too. BA certainly isn’t the ‘be all & end all’ but it works for me. We are an easy target for the haters.... it is what it is. I certainly don’t go for prestige.... rather the job security & 100k gross for doing 3-4 trips a month with min hassle. Those who search my prev post will see I turned down a SH command 3 years ago when we had the one opportunity to do so, that was after 6 years in the company.... I believe in 2016 if you had the hours you could of had a LHR or LGW 320 command regardless of time in the company... now we’re short AGAIN... I can see SH commands crashing down again by the end of the year. If anyone in or out of BA says it X or Y to commands etc they’re lying as who knows? It changes daily & even BA don’t know... just got to bid for what you want!

If it works for you it’s a great place to be... but it’s an airline & like my 2 previous it’s not perfect & could be so much better for min effort.... but tell me where is..... Come in, have a laugh, go home...

People leaving is one thing..... Now if we could only get people to STOP APPLYING, then we’d be in a far stronger position!

I’ve spent some time thinking about why we have had such a massive slide in BA over the past few years. BA will obviously take what they can when they can - they want to be as competitive as possible, so who can blame them? This has always been the case though, so the answer must come down to why can they take so much now?

What has changed in the last couple of years? Well for starters, we have a huge number of new DEPs who have come from other airlines, who largely share the views of the guys on this thread. “BA is way better than our previous outfits, what are you all whinging about?” Are they going to put up a fight against BA?

What else has changed? EASA and the availability of part time! There is no doubt at all that EASA FTLs have made our jobs far more fatiguing. Long haul is all trip two days off, trip two days off, and it does not matter who you ask, everyone who has been flying long haul for any period of time finds that relentless and hugely fatiguing. I cannot comment on how EASA has altered short haul, but I am sure it is not for the better. However, in almost the same time frame, it is now far easier to access part time. So the more senior guys who have a bit of spare cash have been able to remove the fatiguing changes by going part time. If you can afford 50% you are laughing. Who needs bidline when you are senior and part time? Senior JSS guys will be writing their own rosters - especially if they are part time!

Who needs a NAPS pension when you have already taken your pension out of NAPS. Who needs a NAPS pension when you are already drawing it with flexible retirement? Who needs a NAPS pension when you were recruited without one in the first place?

Then we have got BALPA. The pilots are BALPA, and yet far too many people in BA trust BALPA to such an extent that they do not even bother to read the new changes being proposed. Instead, they just vote whichever way BALPA recommends. The BALPA reps negotiate as best as they can. They put their hearts into it, and come up with their clever little ideas. They love their deals and think they have done a great job. Of course they are going to recommend it is accepted! It is kind of like a form of Stockholm syndrome. Who would invest so much time, effort and passion in something and then say it should be discarded?

The rate of deterioration in BA has therefore accelerated massively, and will not stop, until the pilots as a majority, genuinely want it to stop. The new entrants (if they weren’t Captains previously), are just happy to be here and will take anything. The senior guys have mitigated their problems by going part time, shifting their pensions or drawing them, and are ready to leave with three months notice when things get too bad, and so have given up the fight.

I have flown with far too many people who think BA is great and to be blunt, they are their own worst problem. Their LoCo outfits had low terms and conditions because they never stood up and protected them - they were just glad to have jobs. Now they are a growing majority in BA, and they are doing more of the same!

So BA’s terms and conditions are disappearing off down the drain at a scary rate, and will continue to do so because we are continuing to recruit people who are happy with their lot despite the decline. What will you end up with in a surprisingly short space of time? That is right, somewhere just like your old outfit but with nowhere to escape to this time.

GS ALPHA probably one of the best posts I have ever read on PPrune !
It’s sad to see as I have many friends in BA and even they say it’s getting much worse and should of stayed at easy etc...
time will tell

I was unfortunately unsuccessful during the BA assessment so looking from outside in, however nearly all my mates have jumped ship to BA and I can honestly say none of them have regretted their move to BA LH (on 747 & 787). If I had the oppertunity to join BA, I’d jump at the chance. Yes it’s not what it use to be but nowhere is these days.

BA is my third airline, having flown both charter and in the ME.

T&C’s are still significantly better than many other places. And remain competitive if you compare new joiners with new joiners. Bidding and swapping without having to speak to current ops(crewing) is something you would struggle to find elsewhere.
Professionalism and being treated as an adult is something that my old colleagues, in especially the ME, would be green of envy over.

The new pension is very generous compared to many other professions and airlines. Could it be better? Of course, we are all jealous of our older colleagues who have enjoyed the good times with a retirement age of 55. But at least we have time on our hand :)
But you will struggle to find a much better pension elsewhere, especially in the UK.

The ability to change fleet every 5 years (for now) is unbelievable generous, and if it was my airline, I too would be looking to change it... but hopefully they won’t :-/

Our hotels down route are great, although I find that the time down route on SH is getting shorter...

HOWEVER..

The pay the first many years is not brilliant considering the cost of living, especially now that most people find it hard to have a home life on full time and therefore feel the need to go part time, especially if on SH.

London is hugely expensive, a VERY quick search in the internet suggested that it is 33% more expensive to live in London compared to Manchester. So you either suffer financially living in the SE or you try to commute, something that is now frowned upon and increasingly difficult. Not to mentioned the cost both financially and to your work life balance.

BA is by far the most lonely airline I have ever worked at. You will meet great people everyday, but you will not truly get to know anybody. And when flying with a familiar face, you have to start from the beginning as you will struggle to remember their story. You will also find it difficult to know who your manager is and they would most certainly not know much about you.

I too get jealous when I read about American or Delta and their massive pay packages and bonuses. And I wonder if we are underpaid. But the truth is, that it is so much easier to become an airline pilot in Europe. Just remember the EasyJet program a few months ago. All the pilots were around 12! Or the news that the youngest ever female captain of 23 or something and her 19 year old fo taking an easyJet Airbus for a spin.. it’s hard to do much about the decline in T&Cs when you can get fast tracked in to the left hand seat with little life and flying experience.

I am fairly happy with my job at BA but I often look around for better options and if EZY or similar were to offer some better contracts with the option of a base of choice, then I might just be tempted. Or if let’s say TUI were to offer DEC at the regions as they have done before. Well then I would be very tempted. ;)

But overall it’s not bad, but I have decided to be part time and focus on life outside BA. And when I am at work I try to embrace it for what it is. Flying aeroplanes for a living, especially for BA, is not a bad way to make a living!!

Good luck to you all.

Whilst I agree with the general tone of your comments the fact remains that easyJet pilots are still being rostered to CAP371 thanks to the strength of their union. Yes on the day given disruption EASA limits apply but the rostering is still all done as it was prior EASA. How the BA CC let that one slide whilst even our pilot colleagues in easyJet put their foot down on it I don’t know. So to say that the grass is greener at BA coming from a loco is untrue anyway. Fatigue reporting far easier than in BA too, we don’t even have a proper system in place which is absolutely shocking.

Not only did they let it slide Rex, they brought in the incredibly dumb alleviation that is Final Assign to replace Forced Draft. Everyone thinks it is great that Forced Draft is gone because BALPA have fed them their spin, but EASA was already going to do away with Forced Draft. You could only be met off an aircraft for a duty the following day. Most long haul duties do not allow you to work the next day under EASA, so that practice would have disappeared overnight all by itself. It would still have been possible to an extent on short haul, but given that BA would have needed to negotiate a different system for long haul, BALPA should have been able to come up with something more advantageous for all. Instead, we just had the alleviations agreed between BALPA and BA, using a system that the Chairman had put to the pilots several times and on every occasion, was told not to even consider it. Final Assign was the foot in the door to bring in JSS.

Don’t even know where to begin with that post. Clearly no understanding of what Bidline originally was - it was an extraction process with the complicit understanding that pilots would cover the work with draft if necessary.

Without traditional Forced Draft due to EASA and no FA there would be no way of doing that. 50 trips uncovered on the 1st of August etc. Bidline is a 2 way street and covering the work would be impossible.

So much uninformed rubbish on here.

That's a tad strong..

As an IMHO, standing by to be corrected “ point of order” under a combination of EASA and Bidline “as was” GS is correct - being met at the aircraft door and being forced drafted for a trip the following day would have been impossible on most long haul arrivals. However I’d agree there would had to have been a solution to some of the chronic problems that we saw some days...now whether that would have been an earlier end to genuine fully leaded Bidline or an earlier objective look at the establishment and pilot numbers, I guess we will never know.

Anyhow the above is irrelevant to prospect DEPs, though it might perhaps give them a glimmer of how things have changed. We/they are stuck with Roster Assign as the fix, which at least gives more notice that domestic plans might be compromised, until JSS kicks Bidlinelite into touch.

BTW how you guys doing with your GIAs?...Did somebody at head office forget the TA in NUTA?

To bring this back to the hold pool and calls being made, can anyone here confirm whether offers have actually gone out to people in the pool who are ntr? I'm NTR, been in the pool since May 2016 and am getting the feeling that my file is lost in some dusty corner of the office!

Any updates from people who've actually seen things moving along would be appreciated.

Don't get me started! I'm surprised that it hasn't been discussed further on here.
1.4% of basic for a profit of £1.77B. Motivated? Not really.
As for the SELECT website. Amateurish at best.

I don't think it is even that good! :rolleyes:

Yep, hence why I said
If you are so conversant with bidline rules and their origins, you will also know that the intent of forced draft was that it be used infrequently, to cover unforseen circumstances. (As you say, the system would break down without it). However, BA were using it for very predictable uncovered work, and each time an agreement to solve it was reached, BA just reduced pilot numbers still further. Now I agree, something needed to be done, but the solution we have ended up with is a poor effort. Will BA still operate with as few pilots as possible under JSS? Of course they will. I note you have said earlier you are a pp5 Captain. It will be interesting to read how you feel about JSS when you are obtaining one or two choices you wanted during Winter months, but having them all optimised away during the Summer months. I expect it will be better than your previous outfit though, so perhaps you will be happy enough. Bring on the next reduction in T’s and C’s please BA because the majority of your fresh new workforce have come from worse places and are perfectly happy for you to keep on going.

Point of Order if I may?

BA wanted rid of Bidline.

BA wanted rid of Bidline because they couldn’t build CAP achieving Blindlines from the rubbish left over, after Tripline holders, (and T0 bidders!) had taken their picks. Inability to work the most junior pilots to CAP, resulted in two problems: Firstly BA had to employ ‘additional’ pilots to support Bidline. Secondly, work was left over (uncovered) after rosters were issued.

Despite the problem being highlighted countless times by BALPA, BA pilots played into BA’s hands by refusing or avoiding draft at the a/c side. Many of us are aware of the ‘extreme lengths’ some colleagues went to, to avoid meeting a manager after landing!

BA have successfully negotiated a solution to the problem of work coverage, by introducing JSS. (A system that will ensure all pilots can work to CAP. Their contractually agreed workload!) BA pilots voted in favour of this solution!

The current system of Final Assign, is merely ‘life support’ to allow Bidline to continue in Intensive Care until it draws it’s last breath. Nobody can now avoid it by claiming too short notice. Nobody can now avoid it by running from managers in terminals wearing fancy dress!

Any company should reasonably expect it’s workforce to be able to ‘produce’ it’s contracted hours. Saying BA employed too few pilots at the time, may well be partly correct. But BA could always demonstrate they had sufficient pilots if the work was distributed evenly amongst them. Individual preferences for some, simply allowed Bidline to prevent that from happening. When BA PILOTS withdrew their support for the system. What were BA supposed to do?

JSS will put total control of roster satisfaction, in the hands of those controlling establishment! BA pilots’ bidding and behaviour demanded that. BA pilots voted for it.

QED

All Devil’s Advocate obviously!

I believe an other IAG carrier to the west of the UK has a defined benefit scheme where the employee contributes 11% and the company contributes 21%.

Well you could have had an early short haul command couldn’t you.

:E

FWIW in my "office" I have an unamended paper copy of Bidline rules from 2010.... In the loft somewhere I've actually got my set from around '90 and looking at that really would make eyes water...every time I hear someone say we are still working to Bidline I have to "box the chimp".

BA Managed Path
 

Hey all, anyone know:

If the last round of BA managed path a success? Did BA get what they thought they were getting...?

Are BA planning on running another managed path campaign?

Hope somebody out there is in the know!

GS-Alpha

Hang on, it was not the “fresh new” workforce that VOTED to get rid of PP24, Bidline, Fixed pay or NAPS! Stop voting yes to things and maybe the T and Cs will stop reducing!

100% agree we need to stop voting yes to things. I have only once voted the way BALPA recommended but I am one of the minority.

They could have solved the whole lot by upping the overtime rate.

(for info x1.25).

Enzo999 beat me to it. It's monumentally ironic to hear to people complain that DEPs ruined it all by first working for LoCos, then being happy with their lot at BA, when the majority of those people voted for the 34 year Pay Point, BARP, etc

As a matter of fact, the current EZY membership could give the BA membership a few lessons in standing up to the company. The EZY FRMS is rock solid compared to BA's. And the recent agreement to get rid of the infamous Flexicrew contract was a major union achievement. And let's not forget the resolve it must have taken to get union recognition at Ryanair.

To clarify some points that were raised;

- Yes I did bid for shorthaul command every year from day one; all I got was Equipment Freeze.
- Treated with respect and professionalism at BA? All new joiners are made to wear two stripes for four years as a junior FO regardless of prior experience. A380 FO’s aren’t even trusted to land the aircraft for the first several months.
- Industry leading Pension? I would have had to retire at 65 on £8000,- per year annuity. And that’s with maximum contributions into BARP 2.0
- BA wants JSS over Bidline; that’s all you need to know.
- 3 to 4 trips on LH per month? More like 5 or 6; the only change when you have a week’s leave is that the same number of trips are scheduled closer together.
- Final salary of plus £200k? Not according to the 34 year pay scale that the majority of DEP’s will never reach the top of. It’s more like £168k (excl flight pay), if you are still full time that is after 33 years of doing 900hrs p/a.
- Planning your life with a fixed roster? How about doing 21 day reserve periods several times per year...
- And dare I mention; most of these decreases in T&C’s were voted in by senior ‘colleagues’. Secure in the knowledge they would never be applied to them; just the new joiners. Welcome to BARP I guess…

I could go on of course, but fear to damage the delicate sensibilities of those who’s only justification seems to be that they’ve had it worse somewhere else before... What can I say, I’ve had it better.

Slight redirect,

Does anyone know if BA will ever run another Managed Path recruitment push?

Did the last managed path recruitment program produce the results BA were expecting?

Not even allowed to land the A380 for several months as an FO? Why? What about of you have had previous A380 experience.

[QUOTE=Doppio;10065671]To clarify some points that were raised;

“ All new joiners are made to wear two stripes for four years as a junior FO regardless of prior experience.”

I actually agree with that, what’s the point in giving every FO at the likes of Ryanair 3 stripes when they get 1500 hours? Pointless and defeats the object!


“ A380 FO’s aren’t even trusted to land the aircraft for the first several months. “

There was very good reason for this, 12 aircraft, 20DEP’s?! There would have been a lot of people going out of recency if these were all trained at the same time!

“ 3 to 4 trips on LH per month? More like 5 or 6; the only change when you have a week’s leave is that the same number of trips are scheduled closer together.”

Iv never done more that 4 trips, and when I have iv bid for it to build bank or picked up an overtime trip!

Is there any truth in the rumour that BA are seriously short of pilot numbers?

A rumour puts this in the low to middling hundreds.

That’s quite a gap - if true.

well, just read they want to flood the market with an additional 6,8% seats. So yeah I think every carrier in Europe is struggling getting Pilots. The two big bankruptcys have started the rollercoaster of Pilots. everybody tries to push into that market and we will have a capacity of 120% compared to that one Summer 2017. people sign, do the conversion course, and then leave for the next better option. this year is going to be the hell for HR and recruiting and especially the training departments. having people in the conversion, simulators blocked, and on line training and then left with 2-4 weeks notice period eats up all training capacity.

Just picking up on this:

That’s a fair point...the two rings has always led to certain incorrect and sometimes unfortunate assumptions being made by some both in the air and on the ground...I certainly think there is a case to be made for experienced new joiners to have three rings....though you’ll never get the company to agree to pay SFO rate from day one though.


Um...I’ll admit I haven’t heard that was the case and am a bit suprised...then again that is the fleet that didn’t even trust highly highly experienced Long Haul Boeing pilots to transfer directly to the aircraft for the first year or two...... :oh:

I can promise you not all “senior colleagues” buy into the BALPA line...and the demography of the JSS vote would be interesting to see.

There wasn't enough training capacity to run everyone through complete 380 conversions so some were selected to do just enough of the course to fly as cruise pilots. As soon as there was space in the training dept to complete the conversions, it was situation normal.

One of these cruise only pilots was so senior he's now since retired. It was nothing to do with trust.

I'm not defending BA, far from it. There's not a lot I disagree with from Doppio's post.

Yeah, we are a bit special. Not like 'good' special, more like a fleet full of window lickers...

Ah, thanks.

FWIW BA had two and three ringers flying as temporary cruise pilots, and briefly cruise only lines, on the 744 twenty plus years back so it is not a new thing or necessarily a case of penalising the junior....

Wiggy
A380 F/O Landings
A Relative of mine joined a year or so ago as a DEP direct onto the A380. There is no ban on new F/Os landing the aircraft. The problem was the BA lack of Trainers to do the required down route 6 landings.
The large recent LH DEP recruitment simply overpowered the Training section.
So a month or three as a "Cruise only " while you waited in turn.Worked out well in fact, as you ended up having visited most destinations before your training sectors.

Much better than many Asian carriers, for example Qantas, where you can sit for years as an S/O on 747/A380/787 and never land it.

Please say you forgot to add the wink smiley to this sentence and weren't serious?

If you were serious you might want to give global lifeline a ring for some counseling! :ugh:

On their website BA states hiring 'Forces pilots'. Does anyone has information on that specific path? Possible openings soon?

I can't believe that people get hung up on stripes.

Surely what's in your bank balance et the end of the month and how you get to spend your life is significantly more important to how many stripes you have?

Spend some time loitering in the right place in CRC wearing civvies and you’ll probably appreciate the problem.....of course any day now management will sort this out.

I quite agree. I never wore three stripes. I went straight from two stripes to four stripes in just over a year on the DC-10 and never wore less than four stripes for the next 30-odd years.

Forget about stripes and concentrate on what goes into your bank.

Very interested to know more information on the Forces pilot question...

I’ll leave it with this: I’ve had to sort out a couple of issues out in the last few months where there has been an assumption made by some on board that two rings meant straight out of flying school. The irony of it was in both cases the problem makers themselves had only been in the company 5 minutes.........