Do a maths degree, work hard, don't get distracted - go work for a bank - they're immortal. If they run out of more then they print more. Job done.

I'm not sure Buggington, at 17, needs to be informed about things in quite the, erm, 'impassioned' way in which some are replying. There are a lot of home truths in replies on this thread, mine included, but steady on guys! Most of the pro pilots on this thread will have had dreams and plans just like Buggington's, minus the insider knowledge...again, just like Buggington.

It is a very tough climate at the minute, I joined the industry just before the economic meltdown in 2008 and when I started flying training the landscape was VERY different.

Ultimately everyone has to make their own decision after proper research, risk assessment and a healthy dose of soul-searching!

My advice would, humbly, be - if you haven't already, get some flying experience. I had a PPL before being fortunate enough to get on a tagged scheme. I also had a uni degree (like many in the general work force now) which is useful as a backup and puts your CV slightly higher up the pile.

I'm not sure what the status of the BA FPP scheme is at the minute but it seems to be the way that BA want to recruit their low-hour pilots at the moment. If you can get some kind of intent from an employer before you train (if that's what you do) then I think that's the ideal situation.

As frustrating as it is to delay what you want to do (fly!) most of the successful applicants on my course (not BA) and, I suspect, most of those successful in getting a spot on the BA FPP programme/other tagged schemes will be similar, were in their 20s, had a few years of work experience, had been to university and had flying experience of some sort.

All these things round you as a person/potential employee, give you more options in case your ambitions change (or the world goes against you) and make you much more competitive if you do aim for 'sponsored' schemes in the future. Subjectively, it SEEMED that those who trained where I did and had come straight from school to training were those least likely to go straight in to flying jobs (even when flying jobs were more plentiful) upon graduation.

I know uni funding has changed recently but I think there is a bit of misunderstanding among some - as I understand it, it can still be financed by an income-contingent loan i.e. you only pay back when you earn enough to pay back?

Lastly - a few of my friends who started airline flying at a similar time to myself are pondering or actively researching a change of career. Various reasons - mostly revolving around the job not being what they expected or the (often) lack of stability, clear career progression, etc. Not the majority by any stretch but a decent handful. The positives still far outweigh the negatives for me at the minute but I do ponder the future and what the job will be in years to come...

I think it's very much about contingency planning and having backup/escape plans...a bit like flying!

Anyway, good luck with your musings :ok:

What's regional and freight different to and why is it different?

Spandex Masher: First off, brilliant name.

I think when I said regional I might have used the wrong term. Perhaps I should have simply said props. Anyway, when I said different, I meant that when you say pilot, I think EasyJet or BA, flying Boeings or Airbuses.

As Seamaster said, I was wrong in thinking there was much of a difference in terms of job opportunities.

Bucket & Spade: Thanks for defending me a little there - it's a bit tough to have all these home truths land in your inbox in one hit!

I have got some experience - I'm working towards my NPPL, which is progressing slightly slower than I would have liked due to college and general time constraints, but it's a start and has shown that I don't become as sick as a parrot once I get in a cockpit.

Maybe I should elaborate on my master plan a little. Once I leave college (having done my A-Levels) I hope to go to work for a bit while I apply to the likes of BA future pilot schemes. It may be a long shot, but I might as well try. I think it opens again in November, which is perfect for me. Following that, the plan was to apply to the likes of CTC and see what happened after that.

Your understanding of the student finance system is correct, but still, £60,000 of my money will eventually be spent on something I am unlikely to enjoy.

Interesting what you say about "It SEEMED that those who trained where I did and had come straight from school to training were those least likely to go straight in to flying jobs." I'm not quite sure what to say to that.

Hi again B,

I should emphasise I have no stats to back up my perception about those who had done little else before training and job success but from your last post you won't be in that bracket anyway! The guys I am thinking about did A levels and then came straight on to a CPL/IR course having never even done a trial flight or much else...and they'd just signed up for a £60k flying course!

Plus, there were those who did go straight from school to flying training to jobs with top UK airlines.

Don't worry too much about slow progress - took me 2 years to get the PPL as I was on pretty measly money at the time!

Good luck with BA FPP.

Flexicrew TC's - CTC extortionate tuition fees, and Ultra - Low "salaries", how does this differ from P2F?

It is just a different way to distribute the money!

Buggington: First thing you should do is get a class 1 medical, before even thinking about anything else!
You have not elaborated about your parents view of an £100.000 secured loan, this is not the same kind of loan that you would get to study at university! This is a loan that will haunt you until you die if you fail! One of the reasons that when I was 20 I stopped flying, as I did not want to take that responsibility on my families house, even though I could have easily sold my mother the story of infinite riches of becoming an airline pilot, but we are talking about 1990 and not 2012!

Now you should study some more threads on PPRUNE, before you think you have found the golden port!

Like this one:
http://www.pprune.org/terms-endearme...interview.html

Those "better jobs" are getting fewer in between, I know loads of guys in my company, with thousands of hours, command bla bla, and not getting those "great job" - So get ready for a long wait!!!

The BA program is the best, if you can get in with that, it is probably the best chance you will ever have in todays market, if not, be careful, as soon as you finish with CTC, there are no more guarantees, they can NOT guarantee you anything! But who cares, they then already have your money!

Good plan. I've often thought about doing it, but never quite got round to it. There hasn't been anything massively obvious in my family, otherwise it would have been right to the top of the list.

I've never sold my parents the story of "infinite riches". Never. My parents are completely in the loop, have been to all the finance talks at CTC and are fully aware of the risks.

The thing that really concerns me about this career is the potential to fail before I even start.

I have been doing research on various threads, and I'm discovering that it's not really going much better for anyone else.

I'd agree with the BA program being the best - I understand that BA are supposed to be the best UK airline to work for, although Monarch are also pretty good. (not sure how their salary compares).

First seeking / getting finance advice from CTC? Seriously?

They will not care, they just want your money, and believe me, I have been in business for 20 years, anything can be made to seem achievable, as long as the "right" manipulation of numbers are presented!

You are young, and what guys here are telling you, do not put all your eggs in one basket! The industry is full of guys who have ended up spending much more than the FTO!
A friend of mine, went to OAA, than paid his own TR, paid line training hours, and than paid more line training hours, in the end he got a job, but.... long time after he had spent close to £150.000! And he is making £1500 - £2000 a month, do the maths!

The potential to fail lies inside yourself, unless you get into BA program, forget the integrated course, in my honest opinion! So far you have been sold a dream, but with your age, don't get lost in their sales tricks!

First there is NO pilot shortage, NO pilot shortage upcoming, unless you have loads of experience, that is how they manipulate the truth!

I would always recommend modular, get do a FIC, work in the grass-roots for few years, and it is still possible, I have seen loads of guys the last 18 months get better jobs this way recently!

You see, your head is not in the right place, you do not really see what is going on, doing this for the money, yes of course, but you can forget to think about money for the next 5 - 10 years, that's how bad it gets!

Thinking about Monarch etc., first you need to have rating, experience, an interview - one step first!

As a pilot you get a very limited set of skills, not to be used for much else to be honest, build your skills now, fly for fun, build hours, instruct etc., study something that can be good, for the day you are searching for the flying job, so you can still manage your debts, and survive those years until you get a good job! If you ever manage, that's the truth and reality, I know these CTC and OAA, like to put photos of students they had with jobs, but they do not put the pictures of the guys who did not get jobs, who have left the business after leaving £100.000 with these FTO's, and having to either work at Tescos or go back to school and get another skill!

One guy I knew from OAA, in his class of 25, 3 had jobs, and that was with RYR, the rest had nothing!
When the money is gone, you have burnt your bridges for better ways to achieve your goals!
With CTC, don't get fooled by their golden promises, you know what they will say, words that are so hollow, but making sure you believe in yourself enough that you will part with your money!

Because you are special? Different than the other thousands swimming around in a enormous pool of Wannabe pilots desperate to sell their soul to the devil to get anything remotely similar to a flying job!

Regarding the medical, it does not need to be something obvious in your family, still there might always be something, many have had their dreams shattered for things they never considered an issue! First step before you even dream about this is class 1 medical!
Can be colour vision, EKG tests etc., you never know until it is done!

I see we still love those exclamation marks, Truckflyer.

He does, doesn't he? :P

However, I could not agree more with what truckflyer says.

Buggington,

You are so young, you have all the time in the world to set yourself up nicely.

The trick is, be prepared for a long wait at every stage during your career. So make sure life stays fairly enjoyable. This may start with having low debts so you can have a life.

People said it before, those in easy may fly a jet, yes, but they struggle along financially. And for a long time to come. People said it before, fewer and fewer left seat opportunities or opportunities elsewhere.

Now remember, while many people warn against entering this industry I'd like to point out there'll always be the very fortunate, wealthy among us. They will always fly. And they will always want their pilots to be on excellent Ts and Cs. I claim this will not change. But to get a job like this you need to work in the industry to meet the people already in. And you don't need the hours or rating. I've seen it happening.

So, start at the bottom. Mitigate risk of failure by reducing your investment. Enjoy the ride. And keep looking for the next step.

Friend of mine had just finished high school and worked several month nightshifts in a local factory as a packer. He then left for America and got his PPL. Returned to factory working some more and did his hour building. Same for ATPLs. Took him two to three years I believe. He then borrowed the rest including instructor rating. Got picked up as an instructor in the U.S., did that for a couple of years only to then get hired onto a 73 in Europe.

Admittedly this was before 2008 so better times for him but he never had much debt and walked straight into the job while being able to live life.

Last I'd like to point this one out: those integrated courses are highly competitive. Instructors will put a lot of pressure on you to complete every lesson satisfactorily. All the while the burden of 90k is hanging over your head. And ticking. This type of environment may not be for everyone.

Flexicrew
 

Truckflyer and Piloto are giving you good advice Buddington.
CTC Will present to you a "best case scenario" that does not exist anymore.
The chance of you ending up unemployed and heavily in dept along with thousands of others is overwhelming.

I have been in this business for 27 years, in those years I have heard the rumours of pilot shortage several times, it never surfaced.

There is a shortage of experienced pilots in India and China, where the growth will still continue for many years, but to get a job there you already have to be an experienced captain.

I work in China, it's Ok, but I always fight fatigue, due to many sectors and split duty. As for any glory, forget about it, I spend all my nights down route in ****ty hotels with minimum rest.

I have kids, not much younger than you, they have not seen their father much in the last years. I am happy to say that none of them are expressing any interest in following in my footsteps, and if they did, I would talk them out of it. If I would fail to talk them out of it, I would most certainly refuse to put up any money for their training.

You have a dream that most likely will turn into a nightmare, not only for you, but also your family that might be held responsible for your dept.

Get a skill, earn some money, take the modular route. You are young and and have many years to obtain your licenses.
Most of all, never take "advice" from the friendly faces at CTC, they are leading you into a cesspit, taking every cent from you on the way.

Also, read the desperation in other threads on this forum, posted by people with thousands of hours on those shiny jets, but with no job.

Going to University will cost £60K?

So assuming maximum fees payable is £27K, you're saying you've worked out the real cost is more than double this?

Have you figured out the real cost of your ATPL training?

Now factor in, you might be 45 by the time you make it into BA.

Do yourself a favour, become a dentist, buy your own Pitts and enjoy your flying.

I'm planning on going to Asia (Indonesia) to look for some work....... What are the chanches of getting a job as a cadet with no hours or TR? I can pay for my TR so that really isn't a problem.

IFRKING

Very small. Since of January this year foreigners need 250h on type to get a validation or local license issued. :(

SR71, maximum fees on a 3 year course would be 27k you're right. Accommodation is at least 3k a year and 3k a year living expenses is barely enough. This puts it upto 45k and if it is a 4 year course, 57k.

Difference is it is most likely unsecured personal debt so no repossession. Still an eye watering amount of money. It was a decent bit cheaper when I did it but given my course had about 6 contact hours a week I feel that was money spent a lot less sensibly than that which I spent on flight training.

I think the argument of "don't do flight training, just go to university for 3 year (regardless) for the experience etc..." is pretty redundant now.

What the email fails to mention is the fact you have to pay another £10,000 towards Airbus type rating costs to earn circ. £1,000 per month over 6 months. To me, thats pay to fly.

Further, its not "once" you go onto a permanent contract, but "if" you do.

How many cadets come out of CTC a month - 24? more? If they admit there are no placements anticipated for the remainder of 2013 and there are already 60 in the hold pool, you are looking at 350 cadets waiting for a job from January 2014.

The CTC cadets I know are on the dole, no prospect of a flying job this year, deferring loan payments as long as possible whilst the compound interest piles up, and are living back with the folks. Even if CTC did offer them a placement, they cannot afford the extra 10k for the rating. I accept, it wasn't always like this for graduating cadets, but this seems to be the new reality.

I think it would be pretty foolish to embark on a course without setting aside the 10,000 for a type rating contribution. This was the most likely employment route on starting the course so it should be considered just another necessary evil to complete it.

I don't think it is pay to fly per se, it is a shame that you must contribute towards your type rating. Unless you are extremely lucky, you must still pay for the rest of your professional training.

IFRKING- to quote the song 'he must be out of his brilliant mind..da da da dum..." sorry showing my age. Don't go to Indonesia for a job, lovely place for a bit of backpacking, but you will not have a happy experience there as a rookie pilot.

OP - can I add my plea for you not to load yourself up with tons of finance to be a pilot, unless it is money you can afford to gamble with and loose. LUCK is a key and unpredictable factor even for the gifted and well connected. Even if you get on the greasy pole, a gentle shake of the corporate finances will sling you off again. This is happening to 30 of my colleagues at the moment, many of whom are servicing massive debts, some secured by their parents. It is not a happy scenario.
If I may offer some old gits advice, right now aviation as a career stinks, but it might change as global recovery takes place. Therefore, choose another career now and plan to be a pilot when you are 28. This gives you plenty of opportunity to finance the venture, you'll go in with a wider view of life and you will only risk your own finances. Who knows, you may even decide not to be a 'bus driver after all and enjoy a functional social life while the rest of us are ploughing back from Turkey at 4 in the morning!
Best of luck, anyway.

Before armageddon is predicted, there are rumours of 400 new flexis in 2014 due to 17 extra airframes, upgrades, people leaving and so forth. Stelios' vendetta can of course change this rapidly, but to say expansion is over in easy, is just not true. It is just not breakneck pace anymore.