Just to provide a bit of balance here, I don't doubt that most ex military pilots are highly capable and very switched on. That said, some of the most difficult, headstrong, awkward people I have ever flown with are ex military. Some of them just seem unable to let go of their military ways and run the day essentially as a single pilot operation with little or no CRM on display. I can think of a few choice examples in the easyjet training department which were notorious amongst the first officer community whilst I was there.

Flown with some absolutely fab ex mil people too of course. Point is, just because you flew a fast jet once upon a time doesn't mean you'll be well suited to a multi crew commercial operation.

Surely it's the same for integrated/modular. You'll get good and bad from both... Unfortunately however the one thing you can't escape is that these days your chances of employment with the major airlines are greater if you choose to go integrated.

I feel people may have missed my point somewhat. Everyone seems to have read that post as if I was saying integrated cadets were better pilots than modular students. I urge you to re-read this and perhaps it will become apparent that this is not what I meant. Just to emphasise the point about the training record and its merits over what is likely to be a fairly sporadic report from other flying schools (although I am assuming this).

I wasn't comparing the training records of ex-mil pilots to those of integrated cadets just simply to the low houred GA pilots. My post was simply addressing that of turbines directly. I agree it is an unfair situation and I have been lucky.

I perhaps worded it badly, I won't edit my original post as I have seen on here how that allows people to change their arguments casually. Perhaps I should have said that this was 'one of the reasons'.

It is indeed a shame some are willing to work for peanuts but others have put plenty of input into this argument so will leave that to others.

If anything, I don't give a good view of the integrated schools - rather them being a place where people fear to maintain their perfect records or risk the waste of the premium paid to join such a course.

I am sure the majority would have enjoyed the training more doing it differently, the reality is that many cadets will have often found it a bit of a chore.

V2and A De M, my response to Misterman wasn't a "Military Aircrew are better" argument. It was a response to his reasoning that airlines prefer integrated pilots because they are a known entity. I was showing that this is not the reason as military pilots can provide 3 years worth of detailed training reports from every single sortie. However, military pilots cannot even get a look in, even if they offer to pay for their TR with the likes of CTC. So obviously, it is some other reason that integrated cadets are selected before others.
The military/civil argument is something which I don't wish to go into during this thread.

Whether they're civil or military / integrated or modular the end issue is the attitude they bring to the job. The most common first question I'm asked by those thinking of becoming a pilot is 'how much do you earn'; says it all doesn't it.

sdryh #112 - in reply to your post the problem is these cadets don't go into it thinking they are going to 'take on a £100,000 loan in order to get a unsecured job on less that £20,000'. Many say they expect to be in the right hand seat for a couple of years then move to the left seat on £100,000+. Some even start talking about their desire to be in training in a very short while. The schools don't help by giving them the impression they are 'the best of the best' as they are the chosen ones; a statement I've heard on more than one occassion.

Realisation soon sets in and then they complain. Only when their T&C drop will the future recruits see the reality of the situation.

Misterman. You are spot on! It's all about cash - nothing else. It's hard to say this coming from an instructor background myself, but 700 or 700,000 hours GA - you're no closer to an EZY job I'm afraid.

Larrylaz, I think you've misread Misterman's post. He's saying its nothing to do with cash but the training and the indepth training record that the integrated cadets receive!
Although, you are right it's all about the money

I stand corrected. However we all know the point. It's all about the cheapest labour and there ain't no cheaper than a young buck with pockets stuffed with Dad's cash!!

Guy of Gisborne - I completely agree that military guys are a known quantity, like the integrated course pilots. I also agree with others that the overriding qualification to get into easyJet is money to pay for a course. The hiring of low-houred pilots in the numbers that have been typical in recent years has been absolutely ridiculous. The days are long gone when you can say that easyJet hires the best pilots - they hire the cheapest, simple as that. That means huge numbers of very capable pilots are prevented from even applying and instead we have taken numerous pilots who cannot even land the aircraft safely. I have always backed a broad recruitment policy taking from the ranks of ex-flying instructors, helicopter pilots, non-rated jet pilots, ex-mil, ex-turbine, self improvers and cadets. That has been conspicuously absent for many years now and I think that is a safety issue - but who am I?

A De M, I think that is the problem we face. We are voicing our opinions as individuals. Is there a way of setting up a poll on pprune? It would give everybody on here the opportunity to vote yes or no to flexicrew. Then we may have an idea of numbers against. Or perhaps, BALPA could put a poll on their website so members can show their contempt.
As an individual I have raised my concerns with BALPA, CAA and my MP. I have had a response from BALPA who seem to be approaching this problem from the employment law side of things. This is an excerpt of their response

"we need to continue to tackle the airlines that engage ‘flexicrew’, or whatever derivation emerges, on a disposable basis. We sought to do that in easyJet this summer but as you may know the deal got the thumbs down. We are keen to return to the issue. We are also looking at how we can stop the practice becoming established elsewhere and what we have done in Monarch and are currently balloting on in Thompsons are cases in point.

Fourthly we are working with Labour Research and our lawyers Speechlys to put together guidance and drawing on case studies. I cannot commit to e mail all that we are doing in this project but when we have developed it further we will want to do a ‘sense check’ with our members."

I don't expect to see any results there in the next 5 years. The CAA have not replied even though I sent my email twice in the last 6 months. My MP has replied and is doing some background digging of his own.

The CAA? Good luck with that, it is a public corporation with no government funding, it is entirely funded by the ones it is supposed to regulate.

Fox, hen, house.

A few years back, the crew at eJ held "action" over on board coffee, which was promptly reinstated after crews started working to rule and adding half a ton of fuel here and there.

If only the crews would react the same way when it came to having their terms cut by 20-30%, I guess coffee is more important.

I have been going on about this cancer for 5 years here and will do anything in my power to keep it out of our corner of the industry, it is a shame that the eJ and FR crews never felt the same way when this ugly thing reared its head.

A company like eJ will only pay what they have to and as long as there are new crews willing to work for peanuts and existing crews willing to go along with it, this will only end up in tears.

I was never the best pilot at easyJet but more importantly I was never the worst and I could always land the plane at my ranks ability no matter what. I will always remember what AdM said to me after someone's command check to eastern Europe on a rough night back into LGW :ok:

But what is not often spoken about is the fact that easyJet were unable to retain the services of these pilots.

Em don't operate the 330 so can't employ 330 pilots, they only operate the 319 and 320

Not much hope...
 

Guy of Guisborne, there's not much hope if BALPA can't even correctly spell the name of one of their major memberships? That's beyond poor... And just one of the many reasons I am questioning my membership. What they allowed in EJ is also beyond a joke.

I realise the CAA are not a government funded entity but any sort of response would have been polite, even a PFO!
You never know, they might be using the last 6 months to word and spellcheck their reply correctly before I paste it here (BALPA).
I'm a fighter but I'm losing the will against this situation. Perhaps it's time to jump ship and leave a 16 year career I have thoroughly enjoyed.

@misterman (or something)

A known quantity? I went Integrated with Oxford back in '06 and if there is anything I have realized about myself and my fellow 148HR TT colleagues back then it's this; you are anything but a known quantity. I swallowed the "integrated training is much preferred by the airlines"-pill like many others back in "my day" which after all isn't so long ago and I can tell you one thing; I wish I hadn't. I would have been in an infinitely better financial position going the modular way and earning my stripes up without a debt to service.

I've had the good fortune of not having to pay for any type-ratings, but that's all it was; good fortune. I wasn't any better and am not any better the pilot because of my "Integrated Airline Preparation Programme (c)". If anything I would say my best training days were conducted in the four years I spent with my first airline flying the DHC8.

Conclusion: cut the bull-crap. The industry is filling the right hand seat with people that can pay for it and not with people that are suitable for it whether with experience, or the ability (shown on some sort of thorough assessment). I don't blame you for falling for it, I was 20 when I did -- there were no sponsorships back then. In some sense the current state of the industry is the fault of my generation, yet somehow I can't help but feel utterly abandoned by our more senior colleagues in the more established airlines. Where are the strikes in EZY and RYR to prevent this abuse of youngsters? Or the unions in KLM/AF/DLH/SWISS appealing to the general public and the EU like they are now about FDR's? As far as I'm concerned this financial bloodsucking needs to stop; paying for any type rating should be made illegal in Brussels as a requirement to be EU-OPS compliant.

Or on another note: isn't there anything regulators can do about this clearly discriminatory hiring practice happening in the industry? One of the only fair firms around seems to be BA, their requirements usually mean that you speak English and have a bunch of hours on your name with the right license. Try doing that in the Netherlands, France, Germany, etc. One would think that if you have a JAR/EASA license, speak English, have a high school diploma and a logbook full of experience applicable to the job there is almost no way to dismiss a candidate.

Anyway, rambling on' ... a known quantity, talk to you in 3000 hours and you can tell me what you think of that comment yourself.

I graduated a couple of years ago at an unfortunate time and joined a long queue for jobs. I was one of the lucky ones and finished at a time the airlines had began to start clearing out the pools. As we started, we all felt sorry for those graduating and held on to hope things would have improved in 2 years time. I was well aware of classmates that knew the consequences of a perhaps poorly timed start of training. I am sure none of you will believe me but I was under no illusion before starting training that my provider was perfect. I knew I wouldn't have a job the morning after passing my IR and fortunately I had a previous career I could fortunately return to easily should things not quite work out for one reason or another. I was not 20, I knew my provider couldn't possibly be the best flying school in the world, I also knew that they didn't owe me a job how ever much the brochures suggested they would.

Again, I was just replying to a comment left by one user asking why his 700 likely mixed GA hours (assumption) may leave potential employers without perhaps less information than one of the big 3 could provide. I do agree with you that as unfortunate as it is, the airlines will continue to take those that can afford it. EZY is pretty bad and the wonderful new contract is obviously a bit of a joke. Ryanair is worse but as I understand the take home pay isn't terrible (don't quote me). It is of course a horrible situation for everyone to be in, the graduates are forced to take a job or else they lose currency and miss their opportunity. I would have loved to work my way up through African flying and onto turboprops. I feel I have missed out an important step of career development. Me and my family needed a semblance of stability so I felt that I had taken a better option.

I will leave it there as we seem to be going round in circles and it was a sort of off topic reply in the first instance. I appreciate union pressure on the airlines but more must be done.

opening
 

any idea about the requirements and when would be open please??:ok:

ArmApp, have you not read this thread? You're the reason Easyjet are getting away this!!!!

Not sure this will solve any problems, either in the industry or at Easyjet.

Was chatting to an Easy FO who had been on the contract work for two years. He was glad for the rating, but disliked the conditions, no pension etc etc.

He then mentioned that they were being offered the permanent contract, but on a B scale?, which was much lower than current permanent FO t&c. He stated that on this lower scale it would be near impossible to meet loan repayments, mortgages and be near impossible to survive on!

He said that they were all still looking to leave as soon as they could and gain better employment conditions elsewhere!,
The exodus will continue as soon as they can!