Frankly they could pay FO's nothing for the first 2 years. Do you think they would struggle to find people? No. You've got £100,000 worth of debt and in 2 years you'll be on "better money". You just need to "suck it up" for the first little while.

The only way to improve things is to stop people taking on the debt in the first place by really educating people, particularly younger people, about what they're getting involved in. Once you've spent the money you're trapped and its game set and match to the airline!

FRying, HidekiTojo isn't far off the mark!
Give it a couple more years and these relatively low paid FOs will have the hours to sit in the LHS. Loco management will say "hey how do you fancy sitting in the LHS for 25% more?". How many of these youngsters will bite their hand off? And so the downward spiral continues.
Then lets see how many permanent captains and TREs jump to the fore!

V2, if the CAA followed the lead of the FAA, then a 1500hr minimum would stop it all.

Captains Pay
 

veetwo, I reckon you,re spot on. If you extrapolate, and I have thought for a while, these contractors/first officers on twopence halfpenny will be offered a permanent command on at least £10k a year less than present Captains . The profession has become a sad joke, thanks to EZy and the other lot. I don,t this ever changing for the better, for pilots that is!

veetwo's made a good point, as I can only see T&Cs continue to decline.

The issue is who will educate these potential cadets before they sign on, as it needs to be a current group of airline pilots to have sufficient weight.

Why are we talking about pressuring these keen young pilots into giving up on their dreams??? I agree the system is abusing them and their financial backing but you're never gonna convince a driven and ambitious individual not to chase their dream. I went against many neigh sayers to become an airforce pilot.
The problem is with those who make the legislation. The FAA have stated this, as well as increased FDP, are reasons for recent fatal accidents and the demise of safety. Surely we should be lobbying the CAA to follow suit?
An increase requirement of 1500 hours will stop this CTC/Easyjet relationship and make young aspiring pilots work hard to get into an Airbus flight deck and rightly so.

Regarding 1500 hours, I fail to see why it would improve the terms on offer? Surely people would be even MORE desperate reaching 1500 hours having spent 2 or 3 years trying to dodge impossible debt repayments (whilst probably accumulating more debt in the meantime). You're just kicking the can down the road...

V2, I think you're wrong. The dream is sold by CTC stating that a job is all but guaranteed on completion of the TR (albeit a short term contract). Without this, as you stated: "2 to 3 years trying to dodge impossible debt repayments" would mean these young guys couldn't possibly afford the repayments. They would even struggle to get the loan without the guarantee of work! Thus stopping them in their tracks or stopping them from even beginning the journey. There'll be the odd millionaire's offspring who won't be daunted.
Then, as in the US now, recruitment of pilots with 1500+ hours would begin in earnest before the ruling kicks in and as the supply dries up the T&Cs increase as will the salaries. Eventually, we would be back to a position where sponsorship and TRs are provided by airlines again. Military pilots would have the opportunity to continue their aviation careers and those in the desert could come home.

BALPA and the then ezy CC are responsible for the introduction of flexicrew into easyJet.

When the CTC cadets asked for representation BALPA refused to help them citing that they were not employed by ezy so could not be represented.

When ezy wanted to offer a cadet payscale (as many airlines do to ameliorate their training costs) BALPA refused but agreed to "power by the hour" as an alternative.

But it's OK because the then BALPA Vice-chair now has her management job!

I don't understand why we are looking for someone to blame? It's the TREs fault, Easyjet captains' fault, BALPA's fault, Easyjet management's fault, CTC's fault, the baby pilot's fault!!!? Who cares? The industry I'd on its a**e and going downhill fast. What we need to look for is an answer to stop and eventually reverse the trend. Just look at recruitment in the US at the moment. There are still contractors and recruitment companies in a scramble to grab the 1500+ hour guys to freelance but, those guys with 1500+ hours are not normally dragging a £100,000+ debt behind them and so have more bartering room. The offers are already increasing as the deadline draws nearer. By the time it arrives those companies without the foresight to recruit early are gonna have to try to prise pilots from other airlines and how will they do that?

Yeah, right.

EJ has just made yet another annual record profit of several hundred Million pounds, yields are ever on the up, the "other lot" are in much the same shape. EJ's share price has, what? Trebled? Quadrupled in 2 yrs and they're on the brink of the FTSE 100. Directors are getting yet more multi-squillion bonuses. managers mere millions.

Pilots are getting screwed blind with below inflation "rises" because the company "cant afford more".

FOs are being screwed for inflated price training to buy a job that pays peanuts for years, jobs are being "created" by the hundred on paper but arent there when you look for the vacancies a new job necessarily produces...

The industry is on its arse all right because its sh!tting all over the people who do the work. Its going downhill fast in the nastiest race to the bottom the commercial world has seen in decades.

But not in the way the quotes were meant. Its a roaring runaway goldmine success for those with their fingers far enough in (ie up our) pie...

I don't see the issue as people that have applied for CTC etc. over the last few years knew the deal they were in for and still signed up and spent £100k.

It would be the airline's management that would also end up looking like idiots if they didn't adjust their pricing according to this ever increasing supply of satifsfactory FOs.

The issue is, FANS, that salaries, T&Cs and safety standards are all falling. If you think this is acceptable then fine carry on in your bubble until you're forced out of the industry, replaced by some young guy willing to do your job for 25% less. But when you start ranting then, the damage will be done.

GoG - it's got :mad: all to do with whether we think our T&Cs are acceptable or not.

When people are queuing up to enter the RHS despite the T&Cs being horrendous, then it would be crazy if the T&Cs didn't fall. The only issue will be if these people cause danger but short of a smoking hole, nothing will change. In fact, T&Cs will continue to come down and the LHS will come under pressure.

True FANS. But don't you want it to stop? Don't you want to save our industry before we are all freelance without any job security whatsoever?
Obviously the way to get things changed is using the safety card. A smoking hole in the ground is one way to learn the lesson but isn't it better to learn from someone else's mistakes? That's why I'm saying the CAA should follow the FAA and keep our FDP and increase an airline pilot's hour requirement to 1500+ hours.

Would love to stop it and have very bright & capable people entering rather those with the most cash. I'd love to not hear of people being surprised at how much their loan repayments are and that it can actually be hard and stressful work.

I don't think the minimum hours argument is valid, however, as plenty of people have been flying large aircraft in the UK with minimum hours for a long time.

Ok how do you propose we stop the current downward spiral? You must have some thoughts

GoG / EcamS

Fair enough, you both make a good point. Obviously introducing a 1500 hour limit would make it harder to get into the airlines. In terms of how FTE/OAA/CTC would approach this problem I'm not entirely sure. But you can be sure that they would have a strategy as regardless of legislation they are not about to wave their business goodbye without a fight. Perhaps as you say it would be a start though.

Lets see what happens in the US!

The only way I can see that might break this employment logjam is to remove the system that creates it, ie the mandatory start to finish sponsored/totally funded system of zero-to-hero on one cheque and revert to the previous and time-proven hours-builder system where money didn't enable you to buy an airline job, nor the airlines to control the training market.

Then we'd be back to flying instructors struggling to get a job in air taxi or aerial work, then jump to commuter or local carriers before making the break to the heavy stuff. Airlines get experience as they can no longer control the process from end of high school stage, and maybe a bit of airmanship would return to the equation too. Call me a nostalgic old fud if you like, but that system worked far better imho.

Lots of the present generation of FOs and SOs would hate the idea I've no doubt as it involves effort and commitment unknown nowadays. I bet many of the Capts would welcome it. The essential thing is surely to remove the artificial distortion of the job market by airlines through a stranglehold on recruitmant that denies honest commercial pressures to drive the job market throughout the entire industry.
It would be like a powerful dose of laxative to our chronically constipated job market.

Not that there is a snowball's chance of it happening of course.