......or in other words, unless your a Captain with a Boeing/Airbus rating and a few thousand hours under your belt, we is all pretty much buggered on the recruitment front from here on in........well, unless you can fund a rating on aforementioned a/c

is there a cultural difference about money??
 

and interesting to see that these sort of thing is first coming from the UK. Once the balance sheet looks alright, it seem to be right. Even BA does not offer it´s own sponsered cadets anymore, unlike LH, AF, Iberia (?), Alitalia (?) or i am wrong?

Didn't you answer your own question?

and aren't EZY pound wise and penny foolish.

200+ SFO's leaving (absolutley nothing being done to retain them) and being replaced with three hundred 250 hour CTC 'flexi-crew' over this winter/spring (if NSF is to be believed and I for one believe him.) Good business right..?

This leaving Captains to closely monitor new cadets daily. Very hard work I'm told over 5 days times 4 sectors ("I'm so thankful to be flying with a SFO today", is the most frequent thing I hear these days and it seems to be about to get worse, especially for the 0000 to 0600 sim instructors...)

Over 160 internal promotions over the next 15 months, leaving new captains and new cadets flying together daily.

However, new "flexi-crew" to fly 300 to 500 hours per year, perhaps seasonally.

So 5-6 years to accumulate 3000 hours to be considered for command...?

Therefore 3 years from now, perhaps big recruitment for D.E.C's to fill void left by 2010/2011 resigning SFO's (no one left from BMI to fill these positions this time around)

So then and futuristically speaking (edited for African Dude), lots of cheesed off over-looked "flexi-crew", with only 1500-2000 of total factored time after 3-4 years of line flying.

History repeats itself; thus it ever was, thus it ever will be...

Roland Berger - Amen

Last heard that easyJet were working out their cadet intake requirement based on 750 hours p.a. - has this changed?

I don't understand - FlexiCrew has only been around for just under two years... or am I wrong again?

Can somebody confirm the above points? ...cheers.

Craggenmore

That is a good post and probably spot on, time will tell. One things for sure the current managers will be long gone having had their performance bonus's!!

:E

@The African Dude - You're right about FlexiCrew but I'm not sure about eJs requirements though... they're taking 158 this Winter/Spring but I'm not sure if they're planning on taking more after that.

One question I want to ask those who are flying the line at eJ right now is this:

What do those Captains who fly regularly with Cadet FOs (CTC) think of the standard/quality of the training and outcome of that training?

I've heard mixed reports about easyJet being pleased with the performance of CTC cadets and those on the other hand saying some have not been offered permanent contracts due to poor performance - Any enlightenment on the subject would be very interesting!

And on a final note, Major Cleeve has nailed it on the head... you might grumble about CTC/OAA but is that because you had a harder life (i.e modular) getting to where you are now?? (no disrespect intended btw)

Happy flying,
SJ

A number of points to consider. First to Major Sabille's point. I think that seniority is the only way to govern the airline industry fairly. I absolutely do not want TREs from other airline's turning up here to take command slots that belong to our own FOs. Everyone knows the deal at companies like BA - turn up there and absolutely regardless of your past experience you go to the bottom of the pool. That is the principal reason I would never join them as I would wait forever for a command. Nonetheless, I commend them for looking after their own guys and have no problem whatsoever with the system they operate - those are the rules and everyone knows it.

Regarding the issue of the quality of CTC/Oxford 'cadets', there is much foolishness spoken about the legendary '200-hour' pilot. We were all there once and then only for one flight - after that we had 201 hours and so it went on. A low-houred pilot is by definition a low-experience pilot with all that such a situation brings. There is nothing wrong with that as long as you accept that is a journey through which they must travel. They are almost invariably keen, intelligent, capable and well-motivated. Many low-houred pilots have significant problems with consitstency of landings but there are strick limits (15kts x-wind for example) on what they are allowed to take-on. The question arises as to what makes a good airline pilot. I would suggest 5 things - aptitude, training, knowledge, skill and experience. The first 2 are vital to start off with. After that the last three build up over a period of time. We should not expect that to be instant. So as one who flies all the time with low-houred pilots, I always enjoy it but do not expect too much. They are great folk to be around, but have much to learn - that does not mean they are not competent, but it does mean they are in a learning process that requires more supervision than would be the case with a pilot who had 3000 hours. There is nothing wrong, surprising or alarming about that - it is just a stage through which we all once travelled.

QUESTION. To all the CTC or Line Trainers in Easy, can you tell me guys/girls that come to easy with 2-3000TT on light twins, singles etc.. or turboprops king airs, shorts 360, ATRs etc) are better than a fresh CPL/IR (modular or intergrated) ??
In my company I would have to say that we as a whole have only had problems with guy/girls that have come to us with high time light aircraft/turbo prop time. After a few years the cadets shine through much more than the guys that joined with higher time.
What you think?? Do you find the same thing?? Would like to hear your thoughts as it is the way the industry is going hate it or not. How would you address the vast difference in standards??

SJAMES - 158 Thats a very exact number, where did you hear from.

Is that including the 40 odd that they are type rating now?

NSF forgot the sixth thing; The ability to self critique.

Some of the CTC cadets I've flown with are a tad young and arrogant to have developed this one..............................................

I agree they tend to shine in the long term though.

So what about integrated ctc or Oxford guys that have turbo prop experience? Does experience not mean anything anymore. Are a significant number of pilots who are currently operating turboprops or even regional jets confined to a career of regional flying?
Especially when these guys have proved they can operate with less than twenty minute turnarounds, fly aircraft with similar approach speeds, fly continous descent flight idle descents, into cat c airfields with a wide variety of city pairs throughout Europe, some may even be prepared to pay for ratings but aren't given the opportunity.
The question is why not? Same product plus experience, what's the difference, oh and please don't say because of bad habits picked up because that's insulting to te majority of professional regional pilots.

Your first sentence sadly says it all " Experience does not mean anything anymore!"

At least at the level of moving up from your first job or moving from TP to Jet or even in my case from Jet to another Jet!!

The sad truth is as much as it pains me to write this:

As a low houred cadet willing to pay for a TR and work for less than an experienced pilot the airline gets what it wants. An F/O who'll fly the plane under the watchful eye of an experienced Capt who'll hopefully save the day if it all goes wrong.

What would the airline (Easyjet) in this case gain by employing me for instance??? I am 36, married / Children with a large Mortgage so wouldn't /couldn't work for £25k a year and from different bases. I have 1500+hrs on a 737 so would take less training and have some experience etc... but they don't care because paying me £45k a year over the cadet doesn't make them any more money.

I won't get the plane there quicker or make them more money by me flying over a low hour cadet. The conversation might be a bit more interesting for the Capt and my landing might be consistently better (don't count on it!!):E But 99.9999999% of the time it simply doesn't matter and th people in the back don't know, they save money and get the same outcome for half the cost. Like i say it guts me to write it and it is so frustrating that experience actually now disadvantages you from getting a job.....:ugh::ugh:

Had this conversation yesterday with a guy whois in banking in the City. I said it would be like your bank employing people straight out of University into middle / high management roles. It wouldn't happen he said because if we did that we wouldn't make any money, we know if we pay more for the right person we'll make more £££££! Hence why aviation is the way it is and for the forseeable future because CTC will provide a low cost option that most of the time gives an acceptable outcome.

B*gger!!

:uhoh:

What makes a good pilot?
These days: sophisticated jet, multi-crew, passenger aircraft

No.6 - ATTITUDE
although I'd make that my number one.

Sadly it doesn't matter what experience you've got, if you're prepared to stump up the cash for a rating and be treated like a cadet you can still do it. Met someone last week with a little more experience than me (just over 2000 hours) with only medium turboprop experience (albeit all glass cockpit) who did just that. Mind you he was single, in his mid 30's and didn't have a mortgage! He didn't like having to do the cadet thingy but as he explained to me, what choice did he have?? :{

The hourly rate our flexi-crew get is quite a bit higher than some people assume in this thread.

Only those flexi-crew from BMI, the others (CTC / PTF) are on much less. Flexi-crew means flexible salary scales.

100% correct. The only argument left is that this sort of behaviour by an airline is in contravention to the Equal Opportunities Act. Employers should not be allowed (by law) to discriminate against "experienced" pilots or groups of employees which are deemed less inFLEXible simply because of knowing their salary, family and stability requirements.

If this mass exploitation of workers was taking place in the British construction industry (where apprentices are in the many already), they'd be Panorama documentaries with all the daily rags up in arms.

We would expect our only real voice, B:yuk:LPA, to address this matter and put it infront of labour law chiefs but the truth as quite obviously apparent is that B:yuk:LPA would rather campaign for issues that affect a tiny minority of already well fed and paid pilots. :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

Unfortunately EZY are taking pilots through CTC on flexible contracts. There is no discrimination because anybody can apply to CTC for one of these, the terms are just not as attractive as they used to be.

It's rubbish, I agree, but it's nothing to do with discriminating against experience levels whatsoever.

The figures I have seen were at least 50 pounds per block hour and 60-something at higher experience levels, so 750 x 50 = 37,500 PA which isn't great, but more than hinted in this thread. 180 something for a stand by, as fas as I recall.