Although Doug the Head and I do not always agree, on this occasion I agree that the pilot community has proven weak in the past when it should have been stronger. The disgraceful First Officer divide-and-conquer contracts are indefensible, and I have never attempted to do so. As I have said previously, there are some great aspects of working for easyJet and some less than ideal ones. I also back Studi's views about the principle of easyJet pilots for easyJet cockpits. We could and should have been stronger on this. The bottom line is that if we do not back BALPA we will never achieve that.

I stand by my view that no airline of any calibre will take DECs when there are guys to promote. As I have openly stated, I was once a DEC at a time when there was a shortage of suitable and experienced SFOs to promote. As others are so clearly saying, that situation is unlikely to return for the foreseaable future and therefore the comparisons with BA, Virgin and Cathay are entirely appropriate. I do accept that there are individuals lurking within the management structure who have failed to grasp how not to stuff their boys. Like every other airline that is expanding, we would look at DECs when we cannot fill the cockpits - that is a situation that I cannot envisage any time soon. As long as there are promotable SFOs we must, without exception, promote them before taking on DECs. For all those interested in stats, after 2012 we have no more aircraft on order - if that stays the same then any talk of DECs is simply wasted breath and heartbeats.

I'm afraid not Norm. They couldn't be more inappropriate.

You will, more than likely, find that when Virgin recruited DEC's they were already experienced long haul operators. The reason why there are so many experienced SFO's in long haul ops is because of the long time to command. This allows said SFO's to gain a lot of experience in the type of operation that is not as repetitive as short haul. The type of operation that we short haul types have no experience in.

Now, there are millions of experienced short haul operators in Europe and the UK, in both seats, who are more than capable of operating as a captain, immediately. Doesn't matter who for either.

The same millions of experienced pilots are very incapable of operating as a long haul captain, immediately, because they have no experience of long haul whatsoever.

That is the difference between easy and Virgin/Cathay/BA and to compare one shorthaul company (regardless of identity) to other long haul companies is most odd.

Sort of a side question from the current debate about Eazy. Do you guys continue to hire into the 737NG fleet and how much longer do you think Eazy will keep them vs. the Airbus? Are most 737NG pilots migrating over to the Airbus?

Cheers

Lord Spandex Masher - Have I not told you billions of times not to exaggerate?! Not having counted them I cannot be certain, but I am reasonably confident that there are not 'millions of experienced short haul operators in Europe and the UK'. That aside, you are totally missing the point of the analogy in due to some unnecessary offence taken over the pecking order of long haul above short haul in your own mind. It clearly goes without saying that anyone applying for a DEC has the experience necessary to fulfil the role. It is self-evident that long-haul experience would be a reasonable pre-requisite for the job at Virgin or Cathay. That means that if in the past Virgin wanted DECs on B747s they would look to BA or the like for the appropriate experience. The key point is that they took people from outside because they had insufficient experience in their own ranks to do the job. Once they had the necessary experience the rules quite rightly changed to favour promotion from within. Would a highly-experienced BA B747-400 Training Captain be a better bet to employ as a Captain at Virgin than a newly promoted, untried-in-role, First Officer from within. Quite possibly - but that is completely irrelevant. The key thing is that as long as a First Officer from within has the necessary experience then you must always promote them first before you look outside - that principle is made to apply at Virgin, Cathay, BA etc and must be made to apply at easyJet. All the pilots at easyJet are saying is that they want the same deal applied to them that applies to other quality airlines. I fail to see the difficulty that some of the people taking part in this debate have with that.

We have significant complexities in our operation compared to the other companies mentioned. Most notably, we have multiple nationalities and numerous European bases with many different contracts plus local tax, pension and social security arrangements to contend with. This makes the corporate representation of all pilots very difficult for both the company and those who represent us. Nonetheless, we can and must be sure that despite these difficulties we stay as one in establishing the basic principles of how our company should run.

Regarding Iver's question about the 737, I will leave it to others with more knowledge to give us the true information on that one.

You're a mod?

What an arse:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

Sorry but to compare easy to ba and the like is just ludicrous in the extreme. The sickening flexi crew contracts would have never been tolerated, not even as a concept, let alone while secure captains accepted huge bonuses whilst these poor sods barely survived. Shame on you that took the money. You had a chance to bargain with strength and you pissed it away. The management must love you guys, and the fo's , you're fellow workers, must want to spit in your coffee. And the up shot is, a line training captain and www, a so called wannabe Oracle and mod pansying about with hand bags over decs. Is it any wonder this industry is getting ever more :mad:......

That seems a fair response Frank.

This thread is becoming increasingly embarrassing. Are we really expected to believe that NSF and the meerkat are two different people? I agree that it is truly laughable to compare easyJet with a properly represented BALPA airline - how can we honestly believe that there won't be any DEC positions next summer when a pilots' union in easyJet is really just an oxymoron. Nobody in the CC shows any visible leadership whatsoever and the decreasing percentage of members are happy to accept whatever they are told for the most part. If DECs were to appear on the bus fleet next summer (for the people that don't realise that CTC have already provided them this summer) then I find it very hard to believe that the CC won't once again tow the company line and tell us all that it is a necessary evil and that we wouldn't want to cost the company any money would we?!

White Knight said (5 1/2 years ago)

http://www.pprune.org/1911172-post47.html

Did you just wander in here out of curiosity of is the soul destroying nature of Dubai making you explore the internet more?


Sorry that some of you don't like easyJets recruitment policy or easyJets employment contracts or easyJets BALPA Company Council decisions. But hey. Its got nothing to do with you. :eek:


WWW

Well Norm, that's because, in the past (and present!) people like you have been living in an orange bubble and brushing everything that stinks under the carpet by shooting the messengers with your pathetic "why don't you just leave" rhetoric!

People like you made this possible by making sure people take their eyes of the important fundamental issues at stake with your orange bullsh!t propaganda!

My 2 cents of advice to the cadets reading this thread: get the type (hell, you paid for it anyway!), get the hours and get out! BA, Virgin, Cathay (basically all the companies NSF compares EZY to, LOL! :p) are hiring or will be hiring soon. :ok:
Ask yourself: would Virgin have worked you to max duty in return for peanuts after you had paid for your type rating yourself? Did BA hire any DEC's in the last 2-3 decades? Do you have to beg for a few crew sandwiches with Cathay or do they exploit cadets under various schemes?

p.s. Don't worry about leaving either orange LH or RH seat empty, Norman will be more than happy to do both jobs because as a training captain he's most probably dual seat qualified! ;)

Well said Doug The Head,

My advice to easyJet cadets is the same. Remember a lot of posters here have only worked for easyJet (or worse employers). Take your hard earned licence to an airline that treats you with respect. 40 years with a UK low cost carrier really is a life sentence.

Don't believe this is as good as it gets, as WWW and 'he who cannot be mentioned' will have you believe. They simply don't know any better.

You will have a better quality of life, a more interesting career and more opportunity elsewhere. Get your hours do your sums and get out you owe easy absoloutely no loyalty whatsoever.

Dont pay to much attention to WWW and others, they have their own agendas. easyJet will always do what they want in the interests of the bottom line, it will never be a great employer, fullstop, period, and no union will ever change that.

Easyjet really is pathetic these days, following ryanair down the hole.
It has become somewhere to get started out of flight school and in my opinion not a career airline anymore,
I left some time ago and have been asked back under contract but I wont unless I really have to.Even if I do have to it will only be for a short period until I get the next job lined up. Easyjet are facilitating this as they think first officers have no other options, theyre wrong.
Contract captains or not they treat their first officers who are their captains of the future like ****.
Any cadets or wannabes following this, Pay your money get the experience then move on, I mean who wants 40 years of this grief?

Alexander de Merkat,

Thank you very much for posting the Boeing fleet update - it was very helpful.

Wee Welshman Moderate this......you are the arse on here
All you know about this industry you have seen through Pprune or Easyjet, both institutions where you have ingratiated yourself.

If the above company specific version of generic knowledge (and more) is all that seperates you from a DEC then you havent achieved much in your 10 year transformation from keen wannabe at the 1999 job seekers conference to pompous patronising Captain at easyjet. A contract captain would probably less interested in the above ,and not bother to learn your local version, but you're probably a trainer or a manager by now and so sanction that particular model of DEC so as to further ingratiate yourself into the Ej culture. You've known one OM-A, way to go champ.

The above is not a yardstick for jeopardy nor a seperate qualification that only time served F/Os can achieve.It is learnable in an afternoon and many guys have done so at many companies without a 10yr apprenticeship. Many people looking for a DEC position will have been made redundant and will have forgotten more than you have learnt during your industry wide 11 years on an orangejet.Some of the items they will have forgotten are the things you've mentioned. Ten pounds says theyll re aqquaint themslves with the EJ version in an hour or two. Then what value your 11 years. especially when EJ tire of you and you end up meeting another companys version of yourself on the job hunt.You may well meet on the way down people you pissed off on the way up.

Im in the desert with Mr Knight , having a ball on the left seat of a 777 in the "soul destroying" Dubai , Job number 4 for me and despite the moaning on here , infintely better than the lo cost life. Now before you ask me I'm here because I was the same generation as you at EJ but from a previous employer not flight school, hence my interest in your opinions.
As for being a moderator, well that was for the wannabes section wasnt it? Ah the heady days of kow towing with the then pprune owners .A life skill that has served you well at EJ.

Congratulations on your transformation and I hope the added knowledge you aquired, that sets you above mere DECs, was worth it.

Norm,

Ok, I was exaggerating for effect. There are however, (in the style of Monty Python) a lot!

Cheap shot that one. It's not a pecking order it's a simple fact. You need adequate flying experience to become a long haul F/O. You need adequate long haul experience to become a long haul captain. I don't take offence at all, I have got adequate experience. I still have plenty of time on my hands, have you? :E

Ok, I agree with what you're saying here. But, you can also then compare the likes of Aurigny and Loganair to BA and Virgin. They have plenty of experienced F/O's ready for command aswell.

The point I'm trying to make is that, sometimes, DEC's are a necessary part of the recruitment process, you are proof of this. Easy wont always have enough suitable SFO's ready for command so they will need to recruit DEC's. It may be the case that it isn't likely at the moment but sooner or later it'll happen again...and again and again.

If you and WWW could wind up your crystal balls and let me know what the lottery numbers are going to be next week I'd appreciate it.

Back to the NG for a Minute
 

<<..... Captains remaining on the [NG] fleet to 8 in total. ........a number of Boeing contract Captains on short term contract....... We plan to contract up to a total of 12 Captains and all will be contracted to the end of Summer 2011>>

What? 20 captains to crew 2 a/c?

Shaman, yes. That's what you need. Its complicated.


Spandex - I don't need a crystal ball to tell me that in 2011 easyJet won't need to hire/promote 350 pilots like they did in 2006. There's less than 14 new aircraft coming next year minus fleet disposals. The brief 14 month window when DEC's were a feature of easyJets rapid expansion is over. At that time (four years ago) every single FO with 3,000 factored hours was either promoted or didn't make it/didn't go for it. So DEC's were needed. DEC's came in and contributed greatly to the company brining a wealth of experience and knowledge to the company (thanks BMI).

Now easyJet employs a thousand first officers. They rack up 70 - 90 hours a month. That's a pretty deep well and it ain't gonna run dry unless something really unexpected happens. 2006 isn't on the cards. If easyJet announces a new order for 48 aircraft all to be delivered in 2011 then sure - DEC's will happen again. Keep an ear out for that announcement. :eek:


WWW

Well said Jihad Jim,

WWW your statements:

- Illustrate your lack of knowledge of EU-OPS either that or you are telling us easyJet is non-compliant with EU-OPS in terms of CAT II/III operations.:=

Stable approach criteria most of us could learn in 5 minutes.

FFRS is presumably standard for 319/320/321 or are you saying easyJet do not comply with ICAO standards? :=

Downgraded qirfield equipment again is there not a standard EU-OPS table in the manual? Do easyJet pilots have to memorise it? Are easyJet not compliant with EU-OPS? :=

Rostering and FTL is that not in the manual or have you memorised it. I guess with easyJets rostering you are likely to get very familiar with the FTL scheme very quickly.:rolleyes:

Do easyJet pilots operate to the limits of the FDM parameters? I hope not, the FDM parameters are set to show deviations outside normal SOP parameters. Operating to FDM limits sounds very un-professional to me and not to be encouraged (most airlines will not publish parameters for this reason). Far better to operate to SOPS and never come close to FDM parameters. :=

You make it sound like DECs receive no training at all when they join easyJet.

Sounds like working with a company like this that appears, from what you imply, to be non-compliant with EU-OPS and basic ICAO regulations, and crews obviously lacking in basic awareness of international regulation is indeed 'a titanic risk'.

I only have 30 years of Sim checks and 21 years of FDM data to back me up as well as being a TRI/TRE, TRI Instructor & TRI Examiner, RETRE, CAA Flight test approval etc etc. But I guess I am not 'the real deal' compared to an easyJet first officer with 4 years experience.

Furthermore I have to ask who moderates the moderators? Pprune is good for healthy debate and some tongue in cheek wind-ups but hurling abuse seems to be abusing the position of moderator.

Major Cleve Saville.

:p:p:p:p what nowadays calls themselfs TRE/TRI Line Cpt or whatsoever is anyway i big joke!!!
........ the most suitable candidate often dont have these postions anymore sad but true.... :eek::eek::eek:

First, are you implying that you know what is going to happen...even if it's not going to happen...until it does? How cool is that!?

Second, you can't really quantify unexpected. It either is or it isn't!