easyJet pilots, your management are taking the piss now
 

I am really sorry to say this. I don’t work for you, but I have friends who do. I have friends who have gone through the CTC thing and they are telling me what they are being offered to work for you.

Signing up for a 3 year contract earning £23,000 a year before tax and that’s if they do 900 hours. Plus a clause in the contract that if they leave before 3 years, they get penalised, so like a bond even after they have already paid CTC £70,000 plus. Is this true.

New cadets are taking home £1700 a month if they are lucky and got a £1000 plus a month loan to pay, explain that one

Then I get an e-mail today from Flight International saying that CTC are looking for Airbus pilots for easyJet.

I can’t believe that your CC are doing jack all about this. Sorry, but I think its time you lot started acting instead of head in the sand.

If this is true and your CC think it is fine, then you need others on your CC.

Everyone in the industry are looking at you and shaking their heads. Many are now saying that going into easyJet is worst than going to Ryanair and that no one thought that one day they would say that.

Norman Stanley Fletcher, please tell me I am wrong.

anyone from easyJet CC like to put me straight on this one.

We all are waiting to hear from the horses mouth

I've never been able to work out what CC stands for, what is it?

Crikey!

TRSS will have something to say about Easy being better than Ryanair at something (shafting pilots) :E

EGCC 4284
You're right. It's utterly appalling that this is taking place.

At least with ryanair they keep you employed with a reasonable prospect of good earnings. This is little more than exploitation; easyjet - you are heading the way of Colgan Air. :oh:

disco87
Company Council

in your case - Complete Coq. :E

Easyjet a total bag of :mad:, who would want to work for them.

I'm with BFB on this one....

Although I feel for the cadets having been offered this contract...there's no legal obligation for them to sign for it, so if they do then that's their own fault and they shouldn't b*tch about it afterwards. It was the same when TRSS came out in '04/'05 (?) . Everybody was shocked and a lot were moaning about it, but sure enough people kept signing up for it and it became the norm. And as long as people sign up for it the company will keep taking the p*ss.

I have spoken to several "flexicrew" over the last few weeks and when asked if they have looked around for any other flying jobs the overall answer is "NO". :ugh:

Sorry, its the likes of you saying its their fault for signing up. Wrong, when their is more of them, your T&C's will be attacked.

I have seen it before in my last career.

I can't believe that easyJet CC are doing nothing about it. Myself and many many others are watching you lot in despair

I think your CC are letting you down big time here. We have been told on the outside that your CC don't see anything wrong with what is happening. What a bunch of ??????. They are making a fool out of everyone

No one is being forced to sign this contract are they?

Plenty of smiling faces at 'Concorde House', cheap flights for the punters, and prouds Mums.

It's a win win scenario. Enjoy.

There was 100 pilots from Globaspan looking for work, there is 100 pilots from Thomson looking for work, there is 100 pilots from BMI looking for work. Explain to me, why do easyJet want CTC to send them pilots for £23,000 a year. Your management are taking the piss and the easyJet CC are sitting with their heads in the sand. It will eat away at your T&C's and everyone elses outside of easyJet.

Honestly, someone said to me the other day that they never thought that easyJet would be a worst place to go to than Ryanair.

Imagine if this gets in the press

EGCC,

However noble, I fear you are missing the point.

1. EZY are happy with a cost effective 'turn key' pilotage solution.

2. The Punters are happy with heavily subsidised flights to the Costa's for a cheap summer junket.

3. 'Ruperts' chuffed because he's in 2 'gold bars' and down 'Bar Med' on a Tuesday night.

4. 'Ruperts' Mum's chuffed because she can 'blow off' to her mates at the Cheltenham Bridge Club. Ruperts a pilot for EZY!

You are absolutely right in everything you say; but we cannot stop the rot. Impossible.

EGCC,

Unfortunately even if it did get in the press no one would care, unless it was printed in a news paper that intelligent people read the most. I dont think the local paper in your village or town would be a good one.

My sister has joined EZY Cabin crew and from what I have been told its pretty good pay for an 18 year old, but for the pilots its SICK!!

Money and publicity talks in aviation, I think we need to scare the public about easyjet then people might actually pay attention and avoid them causing there profits to drop then things might change.

Sorry, your wrong. There is someone who can stop the rot and its easyJet pilots with the leadership of a CC who have not got their head in the sand.

And by the way, Ruperts are not chuffed, they are backed into a corner with debt. Do they fly for peanuts to stay current and then try and move on or go doing something else out of the loop.

Our CC are in disbelief that your CC think what is happening is ok. Sorry, but your CC are a joke thinking that everything is cushdy.

So, EZY CC and the Aviation Community at large are going to fight to improve the terms of these 'Ruperts' that are now sadly on the inside.

What about the huge number of folks that did not pay a 'dowry' to achieve an undeserved foot on the ladder? I would rather focus my help on the latter and 'cold shoulder' the former.

No, its very simple

If you fly an aircraft as a Second Officer or First Officer, you get the same rate of pay and T&C's everyone else in that company doing the same job. Is that too much to ask for.

If you are all united, then you will all benifit. If you have the attitude of I'm alright Jack, it will come back to bite you before you know it.

The EZY CC wanted to go to the press with a story on this.

They were blocked by the other companies in BALPA at the National level.

It's not just the EZY CC at fault here....

I have the impression that BALPA at the national level do not want to get involved in anything too "taxing".
They certainly scuppered any chance of union recognition at Ryanair about 3 years ago, when IALPA were baying for blood, and now it seems this is all too "grubby" for them to have a go at.
With no disrespect to the hard working CC members in certain companies, BALPA at national level is a bit of a damp squib.

It is not the job of inexperience pilots or pilots out of work to fight for T&C's.

We all know that for inexperience pilots, you need to get that first job. Better a crap contract than nothing and if you don't do it, someone will, unfortunatly.

If you become unemployed, especially if you have a family to take care of, again...better a crap contract that nothing. :uhoh:

It is a shame for experience pilots, that spent 5-10 or more years in an airline, enjoying excellent T&C's, lucky to have got a gold contract at that time, looking at their nice belly, to blame and to give the fault to the inexperience/unemployed pilots. :=

It is our job, the experience pilot to fight for our T&C's and to prevent that type of slavery recruitment,contract...

Who is leading the strike in Lufthansa, the cadet on the waiting list or the 747 captains? :ugh:

Why did Easyjet's CC need the permission of BALPA to go to the press?

You can't seriously blame the CC
 

Use your brains Timzster.... any press 'BALPA' mentioned needs to be santioned by BALPA for legal reasons. Who would the press say the CC represented?

Everybody needs to think about who the CC doesnt reperesent. i.e. the bludgers living off what BALPA has fought for.... The CC is only as strong as their membership level, and the memberships resolve to do something.

However, I dont expect my 'next company's pilots to fight for a good deal for me. If you dont like whats being offered - dont take it. It's these desperado's who sign up for next to nothing who are undermining the industry. Not the happily (?) employed ones.

If no-one accepted the deal easy is offering, what would happen? ;)

The goal posts have moved quite considerably for these CTC cadets recently.

Two years ago they were all but guaranteed a permanent contract following a six month period of "training". Now the contract is pay-by-the (scheduled block) -hour with no guarantee of any flying whatsoever.

But they do have a choice. I know of at least one cadet who has decided to get a job outwith aviation so that he can pay his loan payments which are approxmately £1200 per month. HSBC are losing patience of course with people constantly deferring and are putting pressure on some to declare bankruptcy so that the debt can be written off. At least a dozen or so have done just that and are only now finding out the true cost of having zero credit rating.

My own feeling is that these cadets started out with a belief that a job would be there at the end waiting on them. Most of us who have trained to be airline pilots had no such guarantee and knew that ultimately an alternative career may become necessary. It is this rather immature and naive mentality which has forced these cadets into the situation they find themselves in.

They would rather cling to the hope that easyJet will offer a permanent contract at some time in the future than face up to there responsibilities. In doing so they are only fuelling their own demise as the whole thing is self perpetuating. As the realisation slowly dawns easyJet will find themselves severely short of pilots and it only then that the cycle will break.

I think the airline is undermining the industry offering those contracts.

And that's why it will never stop.

Only the happily :confused: employed ones can change all that.

C'mon EGSS4284,

You've pissed and moaned at my CC for a few posts so what would you do? What do you know about industrial dispute law that would make it legal for BALPA to do something?

Orange Peel
 

You are perfectly correct and I am sick of posting that, within UK employment law, there are no powers for CC or BALPA to directly influence anything. It would be perfectly legal for EZY to offer a contract on min wage and any court in the country would recognise it as legal. The fool who takes it would have willingly enjoined in that contract. If EZY offered them direct then CC or BALPA may have some grounds to challenge but if offered through CTC they are not employed directly by EZY and the grief is with CTC, that is the stark reality.
The only way things can be influenced indirectly is behind the scenes therefore not much publicised, EZY recently made improvements, albeit small and long overdue ones, after discussions with BALPA, at least that is what I read on here.

And therein lies the problem. Too many on here believe that by declaring themselves bankrupt it wipes their financial slate clean. Well it does not. HSBC will always have rights to the money they lend. The debt is not written off.

Non Provable debts can still be pursued by the creditor despite a bankruptcy order having been made and as for those whose parents have used property equity as assurance then those contemplating bankruptcy should consider that impact.

Allot of pilots spent years gaining valuable experience before believing themselves ready for the flight deck of an airliner. During this time in the GA sector you generally always had terrible T&C's and a tiny wage packet to boot and most of the time no contract!

If these guys and girls who generally have no experience want to get straight to the RH seat then this is the price they pay. If a company went against a contract then by all means moan and get annoyed but if you agreed legally to have crappy conditions then get on with it and stop moaning.

You are a product of your own naivety.

Wildpilot has made a very valid point, yes I feel sorry for the new cadets, and it's a bad situation for the whole industry to be in, unfortunatelly they're a victim of their own product, a never ending supply of newly qualified pilots for the likes of easyjet to take advantage of!

I did nearly three years instructing so know what it's like to be skint, £1000 was a cracking month, £500 in the winter. Then 3 years on a Turboprop before joining easy.

And I'm sorry but if these guys cant pay their loans then they shouldn't have overstretched themselves in the first place, £100,000 loan is just f*****g ridiculous, a job at the end was never a complete guarantee.

Unfortunatelly the only way I can see the current situation change is if the banks stop lending for pilot training, a huge reduction of newcomers would push up the conditions for the remaining, Supply and Demand!!

It beggars belief that that CTC was started by former Captains!!!

I was offered a place on the B737-400 with one of the first CTC schemes but after much advice from 'Old Sweats & Airline Vet's' I rejected the offer & opted for a permanent, fully paid job as an F/O on a turboprop for 2 years, then got a job on a B757 with a major charter airline without it costing me£16k.

A 'Sin'dick-ate of wealthy, well paid off 'retired' training Captains started a company to train the airline pilots of the future & place them on the 1st rung of the ladder leading to a bright future in the Airline world. 15 years later, they are shamelessly peddling the same bile & crap & many of their ex-Cadets are now saddled with even more debt & are hovering around the breadline & financial ruin.

CTC means 'Con! Total Con!'.

Don't fall for it!

BALPA SHOULD DO SOMETHING NOW!!!

Such as????

al446

What can they do???? Lobby to scrap the 'Pay-to-Fly' abuse for starters.

Divide and rule.... works every time.

favete linguis - please don't use emotive language to try to shock people when it's clear you know very little about how financing and debt works. Nobody has said, and as far as I'm aware, nobody believes that bankruptcy entirely rids them of their financial obligations. HSBC will not, forever, be entitled to the monies. However, most know, having taken appropriate financial advice, that the majority of the debt will be erased given that their future earnings without an airline job are going to be significantly less than what is required for some time.
The point people make is that this should have been considered before jumping in at the deep end but that is entirely a different point.

The problem is now that people are accepting these deals it is becoming increasingly harder to reject them as it is clear there will be no meaningful changes for some time. Indeed the contracts could get worse but I'm not at liberty to discuss that in any detail.
The underlying fear for CTC guys is/was twofold. 1) There is nothing else out there which will pay anywhere near to a decent salary so acceptance in the hope of doing enough hours to get by outweighs the option of rejection and the financial implications that brings with it. 2) It is abundantly clear that easyJet knew that any rejections could easily be made up by offering the other worse quoted deals to OAA graduates. I'm not going to criticise them although it's very clear their quoted line training hours will get them nowhere. easy management knew exactly how to play the situation and hit it for six, so to speak.

A couple of mute points
Half_Cuban the loans are, in the majority £60-65k not the £100k you quote unless of course you speak of the total repayable in which case accept my apologies.

Vexed you're preaching to an audience which, from the sounds of things, sit happily in their ivory tower. Talk is cheap unfortunately although I applaud you for thinking long term.

Wildpilot if CTC was still, pretty much, the guaranteed route into the RHS (you could argue it still is but at what cost) and you had been looking to begin training would you have ignored them and for what reasons? I am talking of brighter times with the then intact 100% full-time placement record.

Man flex it is true there are 2 choices. Most don't have the option of rejection as they have limited, if anything, to go back to. Easy to criticise but bear in mind again the proven track record that was intact.

Before anyone has a pop at me, and you're quite entitled to, I'm a CTC 'product'. I have other options available to me and I am all in favour of rejecting these. I also think that the 1 or 2 rejections that may crop up won't make any difference. I don't like talking about other options as it immediately sounds arrogant or perhaps critical of my colleagues. I am certainly no better than anyone else and I'll make that point strongly if I may.
I've gone through several periods of unrest with some involving industrial action. My opinion is that we all need to be stronger for BALPA to be effective. Previous unions I have been represented by have always covered trainees and I am amazed that BALPA haven't got a specific training category for some representation. On the other hand they don't charge for membership whilst training and have far fewer members so I can see why they don't.
My previous employment has been in a skilled industry that requires stability and longevity. Management, usually, encouraged this as they knew they needed to keep core skills. Perhaps the problem is that anyone occupying a front seat is ultimately replaceable? If you have the hours and the license nobody views you differently from one another. As such the core skills are never noticed and it may indeed take a, dare I say it, further few 'incidents' such as the Colgan crash to wake people up.
The public do not care. The majority want cheap flights to the med and can be spotted by their football shirts and projectile vomiting. Maybe that's a bit cynical.....

djfingerscrossed

To answer your question to me, I would have ignored them mainly due to the fact that I can see through the imagined glamour of the airlines and wanted to fly for a living. I left the UK and have travelled with my flying but not as an airline pilot but as a bush pilot and now a float pilot.

One day if the airlines become attractive to me and me to them I may have a go but to be honest right now I earn as much as the average first officer and enjoy what I do.

I feel little sympathy for these guys and girls who have over committed themselves as no one made them join a sausage factory flying school and sign a ridiculous contract that they must have been aware could go very wrong for them. Someone said earlier that they affect all people that wear gold bars in terms of pay and you are right but an can do little to change peoples minds and to make them see what they are getting into. So day to day I try to ignore the dulling down of the pilots profession from all sectors of aviation and enjoy my my own life.

Hope this makes sense, cheers

Its quite simple how the easy CC deals with this. As a recognised union within easyjet BALPA should be consulted regarding terms and conditions of all pilots employed by the company. These terms should be written down on agreed schedules, If Easyjet employ pilots on worse terms agreed by BALPA then this poses a threat to ALL pilot employees within easyjet. (this includes temp contracts , contractors etc). The CC should start by pointing out that agreements have been broken and ask the company to work within agreements, if they do not then the CC ramps up the pressure! This needs to be sorted quickly and attitudes within the company like "nobody is forcing them to sign" will greatly hurt your own terms in the future. Next time there is a meeting for increase in pay the CTC scheme will have become a benchmark and nothing will be forthcoming from the company. You make your bed ...you have to lay in it!

Wildpilot - entirely fair enough. You certainly don't need to justify yourself to me I was just interested in what you would have done then.

favete - good for you. HSBC will say and do lots of things. Exactly how much is possible is easy to determine if you seek appropriate advice and are informed. To that end my earlier post is correct. They will give up and they can't pursue things indefinitely. (circumstances dependent obviously).

I'd never advocate bankruptcy anyway but most won't have an option if they refuse the easyJet contract.

In these Nu Labour saturated days of over extended finances why is HSBC lending such large sums of money to these CTC cadets?

Haven't the banks learnt anything out of the credit crunch? or is the local HSBC loans manager making too much of a kickback (read Bonus) to care?

Seems very dodgy in this environment that lines of credit are extended so easily, even when Mum & Dad sign over the house as security. Some questions need to be asked of the CTC/bank relationship.

There is no pre-requisite as far as I'm aware that if you post a question or stimulate a debate you have to offer a solution to the point raised or have a qualification/experience in the subject matter.

If I was a BBC journalist in Helmand reporting on Op Mushtarak I would hope the watching public wouldn't expect me to provide alternative military attack, nation building masterplan and an exist strategy for UK forces after I delivered my report. Why should it be the case on here? Maybe its question would be better asked to the EZY CC than a PPRuNe thread starter.



I suppose the crux of this is dreams and reality. A fair majority of pilots would have pursued this career to fulfil a childhood dream. Sometimes romance and perception overrule reality, kudos and logic. As a result too many have been willing to sign on the dotted line but sacrifice long term T&C's. However how many people think of that on day one? I would argue it more like ....... "I got a job ...... yessssssss"


In the economic climate of the past 2 years, the slightest wiff of any flying job for a newly qualified pilot has generally had a caveat attached.

Apportion blame to the student, but how much exactly? The P2F umbrella has a number of contributors. The schools sell their tie-ins with airlines as a marketing tool to increase student numbers and some airlines will exploit the desire to fly. I would argue that the collusion between schools and airline followed by putting contracts such as this on the table is more to blame than a 13 month warrior who has been fed a fairytale in the current economic and recruitment climate.

However when recruitment dried up, redundancies happened and the pool of CPL/IR holders swelled there has been no change in strategy, marketing or responsibility of care offered.

If you were to go to the owners/founders/CP's of CTC, Oxford, Cabair, etc. and ask how and when they got into aviation 20-40 years ago. I'd then ask them to walk a mile in the shoes of their most recent applicant.

bluepilot summed it up nicely.

That's how it should be dealt with. Problem is - Balpa never worked that way, not in easyJet anyway. Always (in my opinion I should add) too careful, too vague in outlining their goals and how to get there and more importantly - where to draw the line - making the members uncertain, insecure and left with a feeling of lack of leadership leading to weak support for any sort of decisive action.
Pilots paid for by easyJet plc, either directly employed, via agencies, cadet schemes etc etc should enjoy the same rights to sick pay, pension contributions, be able to bid for bases when available, HAVE a fixed base to start with (!!!), be paid through a pay scale agreed to between Balpa and the company, that eventually lead to the same pay as "everyone else in the company. If its agreed to use seasonal/temporary pilots they should be used for a maximum of x months and make up a maximum of x % of the entire workforce (3-5% ?). If more crew is needed for longer time then agreed as "temporary" then the temporary crew has to be offered a full time contract on the standard T&Cs.

This has to be the goal and with the right leadership and clear communication I think is could be achieved.

Further to my last post; the experience levels withn easyJet are now suffering and it is something the CAA are concerned about. Hence the invitation to "experienced" pilots made redundant from Thomas Cook, Thomson and BMI. Apparently easyJet require about eighty pilots to redraw the balance offering them the same pay-by-the hour contract but there hasn't been too many takers so far.

It's going to be an interesting summer at easyJet but in the meantime could the tide be turning?

Favete Linguis,
I saw your comments regarding "Bankruptcy", I think your friends at HSBC may be influenced by company policy rather than what the actual law is.

A creditor through the official reciever has 12 months from the date of Bankruptcy to make a claim on the debtors assets or future income. After the 12 months its finished and then its written off. In fact the Babk write it off against their TAX (Enterprise Act 2001 ?, if I'm right). What a lot of creditors do is wait and then send a menacing letter out through a debt collectors agency (usually owned by them). This is illegal !

There is another rule where if a debtor has "disappeared" they have 6 years to find them and then get their money. After the 6 year rule, they will try to get their money by using debt collectors but they have no legal right to collect the money.

All in all, after 12 months, its written off ( no matter what the bank/debt collectors letter may say). It just messes your credit rating for 6 years.
If anybody is reading this and getting such letters, inform your Official Receiver!
Hope thats cleared everything up :}

When i was initially given my at risk letter from bmi I was scratching around applying for any flying job. Amongst other things I applied to CTC and PARC for this easyjet thing.

I was shocked by the t & c's but it was the only thing for a 'bus rated pilot in the UK. Parc were offering £67 per block hour, then it all went quiet from them and I was contacted by CTC who then offered £52 per block hour !!!!!

I decided I would rather walk over hot coals and eat from a camels arsehole - which is what I have decided to do - so I'm heading out to one of the middle east carriers. Something which I never wanted to do, but would rather do that than work for easyjet under these t and c's.

Funny old thing, I was recently re-contacted by PARC and CTC just to see if I was still interested in this - I graciously said thanks but no thanks ! looks like a lot of my colleagues from bmi would rather leave the UK than take this contract !!! I suspect the same is true of Thomson guys !!!!!

Thanks for the offer but I'm not sitting at home waiting for a call for the odd flight because somebody has phoned in sick and Stelios needs to get joe public down to Malaga for their holiday...........

I'D RATHER LEAVE THE UK THAN DO THIS