|
ZBMAN
100 Thomson guys being dumped, 100 BMI guys with Airbus ratings, being dumped, Fly Globespan gone throwing 100 pilots on the dole all looking for work in the uk and easyJet are taking cadets via CTC on £23,000 a year IF you manage to do 900 hours. Then we read crap like it the cadets fault, we don’t care, it does not effect me, why should we care, bollocks. Pissed off is an understatement I worked in my last profession where the original staff were on £26,000 basic and got overtime and a final salary pension. The company offered them a pay rise of about £2000 a year if they gave up union recognition. They tok it. Within 6 months, 2 more members of staff were employed on a basic of £16,000 a year, then 2 more, then 2 more. Eventually, there was 16 members of staff on £16,000 a year and only 8 left on £28,000 a year. The 8 were then given 90 days notice of change in T&C’s or take redundancy which was a good wedge. So you see, now is the beginning of you getting shafted in the next couple of years. Do you bring your own food now, do you pay for car parking yet, do you do sims on days off yet. I think you already buy your uniform. All I keep saying is this. If you line train a cadet for 6 months, then ok, that was on a reduce rate. But when he has done that, give the guy a job on payscale one like everyone else in easyJet got, not an hourly rate of £25 an hour for the first 500 hours then £55 an hour there after. YOUR MANAGEMENT ARE TAKING THE PISS OUT OF YOU, ME AND EVERYONE ELSE IN THE INDUSTRY Cmon-PullUP Roast dinner and apple pie with custard. Come on, lets be mates LOL. I am only saying what I and everyone else thinks and wonders what the fck you lot are thinking. |
I thought long and hard about this but in an attempt to pacify those posters who have criticised the easyJet pilots I am copying from the very latest Balpa newsletter.
As most of you know easyJet has been using newly qualified cadets from CTC to fill our first officer vacancies over the last 2 years. They have come from various schemes but essentially all are now contracted via CTC on their Flexi Crew Contract, via Oxford Aviation Academy (OAA) on their APP Plus scheme or in the case of a few ex- BMI pilots via Parc Aviation as contractors. In total there will be over 200 First Officers who will be contracted for this summer of which we believe around 100 will be at Gatwick. There have been changes to the contracts being offered by CTC and OAA this year, the most significant of which has been the removal of any guarantee of flying, thus removing any guarantee of earnings. Because of the financial pressure this has created some cadets, mainly those not flying for easyJet, have chosen to file for voluntary bankruptcy. The concern is the financial situation many cadets are in may result in high levels of stress which could effect their performance. In addition, as the employers are paying no sick pay, there is a further concern that some cadets feel pressured into working whilst unfit in order to maintain their income. All ePG Local Council’s are extremely concerned about this situation. As you will have seen, BALPA and the other MA’s are pursuing this as an industry wide issue and there is clearly some read across from the US Colgan Air accident report. Whilst the cadets are not directly employed by easyJet, they are not legally represented by us as ePG Local Councils. However, we have to work with them and any impairment in their performance puts our passengers and ourselves at increased risk. We have conveyed our concerns to the Company and are formulating a proposal which could bring the cadets into permanent employment sooner. Trying to make this proposal work without significant cost is a real challenge, but one we hope to overcome during the next few months. In the meantime please understand the situation your colleagues are in. |
It'll take a smoking orange hole in the ground as the pay-to-pass/fly/work etc SO/FO bins it when the overworked TC misses something.....once the press get hold of that they'll have a field day! :uhoh:
The above post just hammers the fact home....stressed, overworked, un-fit to fly brand new FO with money issues...now just give him a shiny new 319 to fly full of punters...I can see the headlines now. := |
Come on folks, why is so much hot air being spouted about who's fault this situation is? What does pinning the blame actually achieve? It's devisive and completely unproductive.
It's equivalent to getting into a fist fight with your wife over who left the gas on while your house burns down around you, rather than calling the fire brigade and at least having a chance to save the house... Not that I have a ready made battle plan to offer on a plate as some desire. What I do know is that if you can't directly change the situation within the law then you have to at least try some things (again within the law) to level the playing field somewhat. BALPA needs to do some PR, PR, PR and then some PR on this. It needs to make the issue visible. Get a whip round and buy a bill board outside LGW, take out a full page advert in a red-top. Take the attack back to the management for a change. I can think of a few headlines to go on there... Most of all, everybody needs to at least try to stand united rather than continually reverting to the default position of tearing lumps out of each other. |
Man Flex
Thank you for posting that. EGCC4284 |
Don't like it , don't agree with it but it is the way it is.
Good time to buy a house , you decide it might make you a big profit or you might lose a load of money , it's your choice. Welcome to the world. No big magic fairy (Balpa) gonna wave their big wand and make it all better. 1000 planes and 10 pilots = Big Money 10 planes and 1000 pilots = No Money Airlines managers are running a buisiness and not a flying syndicate. It's all about money , money , money. I'm a pilot for Easyjet and I don't think I'm alright jack, far from it. |
I tell you what's really starting to hack me off is the way " The I'm allright Jack" criticism/observation is banded around so willingly!! You seem to forget that a lot of us in the ' Ivory Tower' self funded without racking up huge debts based on no security, whilst having a fall back plan should we not realise the dream! There's too much of a blame culture shining through some of these posts for my liking..........I'll get shot down in flames over this post - so what!!!
|
If I where "Mr. easyJet" I would offer "Mr. BALPA" a reasonable amount of money to let it all happen and find some comforting words for the members....
|
Don't think Mr Easyjet even knows who Mr Balpa is.
Good discounts on Volvos again in this months LOG. |
If I would work under worse conditions, why should I support the old guys to be more expensive to the company than myself? The question is why should you not? If their conditions do not cause you to be worse off, why not support them? Or is it best if they're in the gutter alongside everyone else? |
They are able to do this as they are taking advantage of the very nature of contracting. Pretty much every company under the sun utilises this way of employing people. However there is a stark difference in what we see here. Contractors are normally brought in on much larger increased salaries given that they provide, generally, immediate solutions to difficult problems. Couple this with a lack of sick pay, no holiday allocation etc and you get the idea.
I think every 'cadet' was hoping to accumulate the magic 1500 hours to go and contract elsewhere as soon as possible. The structure of the new deal(s) with a financial bond effectively prohibits that early movement. To be honest I'd be surprised if anyone actually managed to get to the 1500 hour mark given that managements plan must be to share the required hours out over a much bigger flight crew community with most pilots earning per rostered hour on peanuts. |
If I where "Mr. easyJet" I would offer "Mr. BALPA" a reasonable amount of money to let it all happen and find some comforting words for the members.... |
DJfingerscrossed
If every cadet is doing as you say and jockeying to get 1500 hrs so they can go contract they basically deserve (without understanding) what they're getting into. But we'll leave that to one side. DiagonalLeg I like the way you make your point about it being fruitless to attribute blame. But you miss the point. :ugh: If you were as much in financial poo as they are and you are offered a flying contract - albeit a very bad one - I'd say that not all would take it but a good few would. It's like putting a piece of poisoned meat in front of a hungry dog and telling them not to eat it because it's poisoned. The fact the they are being offered the contract in the first place suggests to me that the easy CC isn't keeping on top of all aspects of the business that affect the pilot workforce - and bringing contractors in with much lower T&Cs has to be one. In fact the contract is so loaded against the cadet I'd be interested to see if it could be enforced. It's the sort of contract a loan shark would draw up with a "client". :ouch: Btw Cmon-Pullup - And then i can just add that with your repeated statements that we are all idiots in Easyjet, then our HR dept did a good job by not taking you in. EGCC, you sound like you have some really personal issues with ezy, so why do you show any interest in the company at all? (did you get rejected?) HS |
Interesting to see that on a similar thread, someone has mentioned that they have heard that Monarch may be joining forces with CTC Flexicrew.
Very interesting to see a post from one of the Monarch brethren, saying that hell will freeze over before their CC would allow such a thing to happen!!! |
djfingerscrossed,
You're correct in your assessment of traditional contracting in other industries, but you miss the absolutely fundamental and key point that Could/would/should be attacked, which is that to contract AND BE CLASSED AS A CONTRACTOR BY HMRC you must offer your services - and be able to demonstrate that you are doing so - to more than one company. If you only ever fly for one airline, then it doesn't matter a hoot - you ARE a deemed employee and your salary should be paid under normal PAYE terms, with the employER facing their costs. IT contractors (an industry I am VERY closely alligned with currently) face this problem continually. As stated before, BALPA should be arguing the legal point that anyone on flexicrew is actually a deemed employee, which in turn forces the employer to fund NI and tax contributions. The employER in this case might not be easy directly, but PARC, CTC - but the point remains that they can not operate deemed employees without charging. |
Clanger - I've faced the same problems as yourself in engineering over several years. There are several umbrella companies who do absolutely nothing but charge you for keeping you on the right side of the IR35 whilst you contract for ONE employer. It's bordering very very closely on legality but there you go.
Most engineering agencies I've gone through have always pointed me in there direction. Shocking? Yes. Legal? Probably not. Harry - I think most realise the implications however they, and I, would rather be treated like :mad: and paid instead of being treated like :mad: and paid bugger all. |
Dj- your last paragraph sums up the whole problem. When management know that that's your attitude then contracts like this WILL be the only ones that are offered! You started training in 2008 thus taking a huge gamble and now expect people like me to fight for your cause. I have and will continue to lobby my cc to do make a stand against these conditions but we need a better attitude than that from you guys.
|
Gyni,
What you are saying sadly illustrates the state of mind within the company. You and the others are basically saying "why should I help these cadets, no one forced them to sign". What you guys fail to understand is that the introduction of paid by the hour (and pay to fly) contracts are undermining OUR terms. Whether or not the cadets are right to accept these terms is completely beside the point. If we, as a group, cannot see this as a direct attack on our profession, then perhaps we deserve to be called stupid. We are letting the company screw us over, and it is shocking that all we can come up with is "well they knew what they were signing for" . and when Balpa come up with this: We have conveyed our concerns to the Company and are formulating a proposal which could bring the cadets into permanent employment sooner. Trying to make this proposal work without significant cost is a real challenge, but one we hope to overcome during the next few months. and before anyone asks: yes I have made my position clear to my union rep. |
ZBMan- I totally agree with you!! I'm extremely disappointed in the constant lack of fight amongst us and the lack of leadership from the CC! I'm making the point that EVERYBODY has to do their bit both outside and inside the company! As I said earlier, I have sent emails, spoken to colleagues- what else can I do?!
|
gyni - You don't need to fight for my cause. If it's offered to me I'll be rejecting the deal in it's current state. The point you miss is that I have something else I can do for work AND it will give me the means to repay my loan. Most don't. It is their cause you should fight for as they have nothing else they can do.
Actually on reflection I think you might have misinterpreted my last. I was replying to Harry in that the guys were looking to get 1500 and then grab other positions that paid better even if they were the usual, asian, me, treat us like crap but pay half decent. What I was NOT saying is that we would prefer to take the easy contracts over other jobs. |
Dj- understood! It's very easy to misinterpret opinions on an anonymous Internet forum eh?!
|
Gyni - no problem. I really should have worded my reply to Harry a little better.
I hope you can see the problem though. A lot of these guys are all very intelligent, most put me to shame, and have excellent degrees. I have absolutely no doubt they'd all do very well in their degree related industries. The problem they face is that massive numbers of people are degree educated and only core industries ask for specific degrees. Even most of these are over subscribed to. Entry level grad jobs might just let them scrape by if they could live at home with parents or house share with fellow cadets. No experience means they can't chase the better paid vacancies and they don't have the hours to apply for any other airline positions. Couple this with the bank playing hardball and you can begin to see how futile it can seem. No requirement here for any smart arses to pipe up saying they can't be that clever as they got themselves in a financial pickle. In my opinion they've been sold down the river. We, they, I, whatever, would be very grateful of your support. I can completely empathise with your thoughts and I've been in a similar position before in engineering. No resolution was forthcoming and the union happily got members to sell new entrants out. Reduction in terms and closure of the final salary pension scheme and low and behold with smaller numbers now that is under threat. What I would say is that the majority, neigh, almost all of the people in the holding lake, tried to reject the deal. It became extremely apparent that easyJet wouldn't offer anything substantial in terms of improvements or concessions and with nothing else available I can't bring myself to criticise them. Rock, hard place. I only wish everyone had held out a little longer. It was obvious easy needed crew but with the threat of OAA-let's-throw-30k-at-it looming large and HSBC barking for repayments and taking legal action what to do? |
....and that dear djfingerscrossed leads us nicely back to the easyjet CC. We seem to have established now that the Kaydets, whilst culpable in signing, aren't really the root of the problem.
Sometimes a CC has to educate a management team who wish to implement something completely mental but which seemed a good idea when it was dreamt up. The easy CC shouldn't be looking at this as a cost neutral thing - are they another tier of managers in the company's heirarchy? :ugh: As I read it the statement quoted implies an acceptance of the scheme by the CC - or its inevitability. Are concessions going to have to be made from another area in order to finance the bringing of the cadets into permanent employment sooner? By shortening the time period before permanent employment is offered, more mugs will be encouraged to go for it. Therefore easyjet will have successfully shifted yet more of their training costs and business risk onto their prospective employees. And where one goes, the others will follow. :D :hmm: This is a direct (and major) attempt to undermine easyjet pilot T&Cs (let alone any collateral damage to conditions elsewhere in the industry). This is cause for teddy to not only be thrown in the corner but thoroughly stamped on as well. Glad to see that unions and management are able to work so well, hand in hand. :ugh: HS |
Yes
It seems they are good friends, doesn't it? What BALPA has to do is to say "STOP" to this form of hiring, and that's it. Its mere existence is a torpedo below the floating line. It is deadly, 100%, no doubt. Only the torpedo hasn't hit yet, but either you veer the ship quickly or say good by to your T&Cs. So why are they so friendly? Are they nuts? Have they been bought? It is unbelievable what is happening... On the part of EZY senior pilots and BALPA. Did they hire them in the first place because they are masochist? Or is it that none of them is happy with this, that they hate what is happening, but they just can't make their opinion heard in the higher levels? |
I think the last sentance about sums it up - we make our views known both individually and collectively, but they are ignored by an Ops Director who 'cares nothing for loyalty', and totally ignores any different opinion, that is why we are so short of crews at the moment, and it's only February.
|
For those who are affected, why don't you just phone / write a letter to BALPA with your questions asking their opinions and if they'll be getting involved?
If they are the only people who can help, then I sure would have tried them first, instead of typing on Pprune! lol |
Couldnt afford it
Hi Guys,
I am an engineer who has managed to break into the flying game. I got rated on the A320 and was lucky enough to get some flying with an airline that i worked with during summer season. I was looking for a more permanent position and had applied to Flixi Crew, however a friend of mine told me about the terms and conditions and I could not afford to take a position like that. Even being in the RHS is a pay cut for me under normal conditions, I am not bragging but I dont have any debt to repay back I worked hard and paid for everything as I went. However the realities are I have a mortgage which costs 1300 Euro per month, that would be what I could expect to recieve after tax working their max hours. I simply could not afford to live on fresh air! So I will have to keep looking and waiting for a reasonable paying job while still working as an engineer. Though even the rates for that have gone down over the last 2 years! As a wise man once said "F*ck Em" Keep the faith! Spanner:ok: |
1300 Euro per month
So is that how much they value their co-pilots. I am not talking about cadets doing line training here, this is someone who has an Airbus rating and some hours on it. Now do you understand, your management are taking the piss now and you need to do something about it. Not just for yourselves, but for everyone in the industry. If not, the UK will end up like the USA with in the next 5 years. This thread is nearly 7 days old now. 115 post and viewed 11,145 time. Everyone is watching in disbelief. A question for anyone in the know, have your CC been bought off???? Please feel free to put me straight on this Take home pay 1300 Euro per month, that’s what easyJet think the rate should be. And those few who come out with "they don’t have to do it" are as much to blame as those that do it, so the "alright Jack" lot need to wake up and think about what your job maybe like in 5 years time. All it needs is for easyJet to take 100 pilots a year from anywhere in the world and within 5 years, you’re screwed. The time to stop this is not next year, next month or next week, its now if you want to do something about it. I have to go and work abroad in the Middle East, as are about another 80 Thomson pilots that are being made redundant. What is being offered by CTC and PARC is a slap in the face to us as much as it is to those wanting to get on the ladder and those already employed within easyJet. Many of us would rather stay here and would be happy to work for you for the going rate, not this prostitution rate Either easyJet needs pilots or they don’t. If they do, then employ them and give them the rate for the job. Is that too much to ask. Even being in the RHS is a pay cut for me under normal conditions, I am not bragging but I dont have any debt to repay back I worked hard and paid for everything as I went. However the realities are I have a mortgage which costs 1300 Euro per month, that would be what I could expect to recieve after tax working their max hours. They are taking the piss out of YOU, ME AND EVERYONE ELSE |
Yes, man
So....? LOBBY, LOBBY, LOBBY, LOBBY! What are you waiting for? Write letters, have meetings, make phone calls. Nobody will do that in your stead. Force and Honor! |
Nobody will do that in your stead. 1300 EU. on max hours. Frankly, thats worse than f:mad:ing offensive. :yuk::yuk::yuk::yuk: |
I don't understand employment law, and post Maggie T I understand it has its limitations, but. . . . is there no scope here for the permanent employees to take industrial action if the company "employs" (be it through PARC/CTC whoever) someone to do the job at a pittance and thereby in effect make the post unavailable to a more "suitable" i.e. experienced candidate, and quite demonstrably lay down a marker as to where future employees will be graded.
Alternatively is there no clause in your BALPA negotiated "agreement" that prevents someone being employed on lesser terms. FFS, if there is, give your CC a clout on the lug, and insist they do likewise to BALPA HQ NOW. . before you are totally Donald Ducked (which will happen sooner than you think) If there is no protection in employment law, or no clause, then play dirty and find another reason to take action, but find a reason now, or there will very soon be nothing left to protect. Forget all this "cosy free-masonic/we are all professionals together" clap-trap ("zero cost solutions" my @rse ) & fight HARD, fight NOW and fight DIRTY, like they do, whilst there is still a modicum of time & chance left. Christ, you have BALPA recognition and yet you still let this sh1te, which is as bad or worse than anything Ryanair have imposed on a non-union workforce, continue, nay prolifigate, and then the union-defenders wonder at the result of the BALPA poll on the other thread. For crying out loud DO SOMETHING ! ! ! :ugh: |
I do love the way so many on this forum think there is only one issue outstanding in Easyjet at the minute. I'm sure the cadet issue is important but I can absolutely assure you that it is not top of the membership's priority list..maybe sad but nonetheless true. Chances of a membership ballot for strike action over cadets? Zero.
As for the CC taking backhanders from management.. if you had ever met any of them you'd know that is total BS and shame on those that imply it. |
Thad Jarvis
" can't see the wood for the trees" springs to mind. If you cannot see the implications of employing a group of pilots on drastically reduced terms (not Cadets, but experienced F/O's via PARC) AND the inevitable consequences for future recruitment, AND thereafter your goodselves, what is it there to be dealt with that is more important ? This is the thin edge of the wedge, the further up your @ss you allow them to shove it ,the more it will hurt to extract it :eek: Learn from history, and look where this went in Ryanair. Your lot have a "role model" and appear to be quite determinedly trying to outdo them. What could be more pressing than stopping this spiral dive to terra firma ? :confused: WHOOP WHOOP PULL UP ! ! |
Originally Posted by Thad Jarvis
I do love the way so many on this forum think there is only one issue outstanding in Easyjet at the minute. I'm sure the cadet issue is important but I can absolutely assure you that it is not top of the membership's priority list..maybe sad but nonetheless true. Chances of a membership ballot for strike action over cadets? Zero.
As for the CC taking backhanders from management.. if you had ever met any of them you'd know that is total BS and shame on those that imply it. 1) The Berlin B scale and contract. 2) The Cadet/PTF/PARC contracts. The rest is quite frankly secondary. I am astonished that more people are bitching about the crew food or the uniform than this. Even the temp commands are less important than this direct attack on our long term futures. Can't you see this? Now, what progress has been made on these issues (which have been going on for months)? Appart from the search of a zero cost solution? If this isn't stopped, then it will spread. And then all we'll be offered with a base transfer or a command will be a PARC contract. An if a base closes it will be PARC or the boot. If we don't do anything NOW we are f***ed. |
ZBMAN has summed it up.
You've demonstrated that you can't negotiate anything with this management team, and whilst most pilots are normally against industrial action, it is now the only action. Q - How much one would day's strike cost EZY? A - More than their FO savings from this contract nonsense. This should be justified on safety and a fair wage - and we're talking a fair wage in the context of spending £50k+ post tax to get it. I really think that this will be like the banks. By the start of 07, everyone thought their lending behaviour was normal to generate shareholder profit and the risks carefully managed. Then several of them crash - the regulator gets blamed, the public want to know why they weren't aware, press have a field day and everyone "expert" pipes up saying they warned of this years ago. Well now's your chance to make a stand and find your backbone as talk is easy. |
These contracts will end soon at EZY but it's not the ineffectual EZY CC who will stop them, it will be BALPA and the CAA.
Eazyjet are breaking quite a few rules regarding these contracts, unfortunately the EZY CC and pilots are too useless to stop it going on. |
but it's not the ineffectual EZY CC who will stop them, it will be BALPA and the CAA. BALPA ? Horse.. Gate.. Bolted... |
whatdoesthisbuttondo,
What rules are these then ? I am sure if you can point them out there will be no shortage of "whistleblowers" within Easy only too keen to contact the relevant authority to bring them to their attention. Unfortunately, the rules are so lax that they are probably not breaking any, but if you know better I (and I am sure countless seriously p1ssed off Easy employees,and indeed p1ssed off unemployed pilots) would be glad to hear about them. |
The rules are CAA's own regarding UK employees being employed on a permanent basis not a temporary one.
|
There have been many temporary contracts in the UK aviation sector before. The CAA has nothing to say about this. What is the problem when people accept new contracts and current employees say nothing?
|
| All times are GMT. The time now is 03:09. |
Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.