OAA's update reads like cheap, scammy marketing for the masses, selling jobs like you would sell double-glazing or 2-for-1 sofas......and as for "FirstOfficerPlus".....if you didn't fall over laughing, you'd cry..........."JobCentrePlus", anyone?.

Norman, is this right? Over here we don't even hold a cadet up for his very first progress check before 60 sectors, with 80 as a target for his check to line. Oh, and ours start earning as soon as they shed the safety pilot, at minimum 12 sectors, commonly 20ish. But then we want the good ones.

I must say, this has the whiff of something rather foul about it. Thinking more broadly, is it, do you think, beyond the reach of reason to imagine an aspirant CEO laying a short-term money earner at the heels of moribund organisations as a means of currying favour for any future promotion of his own self?

http://www.detikfinance.com/images/c...-ceo-dalam.jpg

Perish the thought.

Leo - alas it is all totally correct. I am becoming a Rayanair fan more and more by the day - we have managed to surpass them on the road to ruination at every level. Quite an achievement I know, but after enormous effort we seem to have gone lower than Ryanair. I used to think such a thing was not possible, but I am being proven wrong daily.

We actually agree on so much. What we do not agree on is the solution. The people who are being left alone, relatively speaking, at easyJet are the current pilots - largely due to the fear of taking on BALPA directly. Sadly, the company are currently successfully circumventing BALPA through parc and others. The battle continues however, and there is a lot of water to go under the bridge. I believe a major confrontation is coming unless there is a rapid changearound. I will fight any day over this one, and it is apparent that this view is shared by many of my colleagues. Watch this space.

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year old mate.

Leo, tis the season of good will and all that, but did you have to post THAT picture, please please I really prefer the meerkats. . . and by a big margin.
Reptiles were never my preference. :=

BTW Bonne Année to the Leo's & Norm's of this world, it would be a bit bereft of eloquent prose witoutcha guys. :ok:

Errrr... I'm acutely unaware of any other similar scheme save Brookfield/Ryanair. So what are the other airlines that OAA Director - Commercial & Employment Services is referring to?

Ah Norman, there are so few things as charming, so closely beguiling as those as plucked from being in the company of the truly devoted, as you, my dear old friend, so clearly are. Do you really imagine Mousaka Inc. to be frightened of BLAPA? Truly? The best thing you could do for them is to ground your entire fleet by strike for the rest of the winter. You do see that it would at once, both minimise their losses and strengthen their hand?

You and I both know the ghosts of winters past, and so let's just say the best interests of your beloved Orangemen are well served by a clear and unfussy interregnum. Brady is a smart man, more capable than many give him credit for, but all of this you're currently anguishing over is little more, I fear, than a pissing contest between the two aspirants, principal. The one you know, the other you don't.

When we meet, I'll give you the dirt on both...privately of course. It'll be juicy.

My sincere compliments of the season to you too, Norman, and may I offer you the peace of the Word made Man.

Since that incorigible rogue, Playstation, has poked his head in, and knowing how much he shares my love of the old languages, a little something for you both, from Pervigilium Veneris, the Vigil of Venus.

Leo.

This OAA deal is disgusting - makes the crooks at Ryanair and CTC look good! !

The only solution is for the CAA to mandate that 0'hrs FATPL's require their training up to first Line Check to be completed on a simulator - that's what the Level 'D' simulators are for!

There is a huge risk to the travelling public with this process

Oxford have actually offered these schemes for a long time! At least 5 years ago they offered it in asociation with GECAT (I believe for Ryanair). I assume now GECAT own Oxford its an area they are likely to expand.

Fischer flyer, I wish everyone took the stand of not flying with pay to fly pilot driven airlines. Sadly the only ones I can think of in the UK are Flybe and BA, can anyone think of any others that still dont charge for ratings??

Oh I guess Monarch on the rare time they take on direct entry rather than CTC cadets.

Sorry, what's your point Red Wings? People should go for this scheme?

EZY has brought people in over the years via various TRTOs such as GECAT and the Dutch Europilot scheme. The BIG difference is that these people joined as direct entry pilots on a FULL SALARY, FO/SFO as appropriate, no TRSS deductions for five years. Shock Horror that pilots should actually get PAID for doing their job.

The Americans have woken up to the dangers, until we do, aviation as a viable career path in the UK/Europe will effectively be dead for the majority who don't want to work for slave wage terms and conditions.:ugh:

You could all just stop paying for these schemes :O I know its hard to get that first job, but there has to be a point when you guys all say thats enough. When you get to the cockpit ,you won't enjoy it if your £60k+ in debt to the bank and getting paid :mad: money. It's just a job don't forget that and think before you give your money to these schools.

Its hard but have some self pride

Good luck

The interesting thing is that eventually by pushing these schemes OAA are going to have to drop their prices for their courses.

Hopefully the zoombies will wake up (or banks), see the t+c's are massivly decreased, hence the supply for new muppets at OAA's doors will decline, putting them in more trouble. They work on the promise of massive salaries when you pass, when people realise that is not the case anymore what is their selling point then?

Its a shame the CAA are nothing more than an admin office and have no power intervene, these schemes could have big safety issues.

Can we just clarify something.

The cost to the student for the TR + line training is circa £35k. Is this paid entirely by the student? Or does Easyjet / Parc pay the majority and then subsequently subtract money from the quoted £50/ block hour as payment?

Ie, are these guys gonna be taking home £50/ block hour... or something much less?

V2

vee........
 

Who cares? It's an awful deal either way.

But, I think the student pays. That's the whole point........:ugh::ugh:

V2

There's a bit of a clue in langleys letter:

Looks like they have to stump up the cash upfront.

As for this comment:

How many hours is acceptable for that then? :ugh:

socrates,

Yeah, I did see that part of Langley's post. However, there are differing reports about what happens to the remaining 90%. The BALPA line is that the £50/block hour is reduced to around £25/block hour to repay the company.

Lets be clear, no one is suggesting it is a good deal either way. It is an appalling deal which no one should consider accepting. However, it is that much worse, and bankruptcy that much closer, if the latter is true.

At any rate I am writing a letter to AH, for what its worth, as he recently invited feedback on how to improve industrial relations with pilots (should be obvious really). Hence I want to be clear on the details.

V2

Reading an earlier post if anybody in Orange HQ believes for one minute that any Russian or similar pilot is going to provide cheap labour then they need to get from behind their abacus and do some reseach.

I know from experience, and Russian friends, that Russians know the western world is out to exploit them and they are as demanding, if not more demanding, than western pilots.

Looking around some years ago for ICAO A310 pilots, there were A310's operating in Russia etc. Despite offering 'western' monies never managed to attract one pilot. Once Aeroflot got A320's tried to find some Russian A320 pilots, point 1. they don't want to leave Russia and, point 2. if they do then somebody is going to have to make them an offer they can't refuse and that would entail investing in a larger abacus than Orange have at present.

How long has a jet rating been 35k??

It was about 18k for a typical rating just 3 years ago!!!

Good point WS.

I'm guessing that it was £18k when it was just the TRO that needed to make a profit. Now you've got to feed the TROs/airline/pimps etc, who all want a nice fat profit.

This scheme gets worse by the day, and it can probably still get worse as the cadets keep signing up.

What I want to know is can anyone whose recently started one of these integrated courses even spell their own name? To sign up for one of these in the last 14 months, you've got to be retarded or so rich nothing really matters. Both qualitities that used to be kept well out of the flight deck.

rant over.

I was knocked back by CTC at the interview stage in 2006.
Moved on, got a well paid job still within the aviation industry (albeit ground based) and now have enough spare cash I could finance my training upfront without going into debt and guess what... not interested anymore. Been in the industry for nearly 4 years now and like everything else, a job is a job and your life is more important after work, what you do with your time, friends and family, and I look at my CTC failure as a blessing in disguise now.

Granted, watching the sunrise from 39k feet is a privilege, but then again, it wasn't meant to be, and there are pretty views from ground level too ;)