Aerobat - Did you vote yes the other day?

Would someone explain this to me? Since when do your flight and duty times affect private flying?

Under the IAA rules:

all types of flying counts towards your 900/yer limit.

It would be embarrasing to turn round to ops and say I cnt fly because iv burned up my 900 hours with additional light aircraft flying. A boot out the door would surely follow.

Under CAA anything under 1600kg is not counted, but as we have IAA licences its different rules.....:sad:

I think Stan Woolley just about hit the nail on the head when he made the comment that airlines are all the same.

We would all love to work for that perfect airline that doesn't exist. I personally have a wardrobe full of uniforms from airlines that went under.

I absolutely loved working for Fred Laker and thought he was a pretty good boss. What happened? Another uniform in the wardrobe!

I watched what happened to PanAm, Tigers and TWA while I was working in the States. No doubt those who got to put their uniforms in the wardrobe then, at one time thought they had arrived when they were working for those wonderful airlines (any comment BelArgUSA?)

After another uniform ended up in my wardrobe, I decided that I had to work for a predator for a change and stop worrying about staff travel and such niceties that don't really matter when it comes down to it. Luckily, this was a good change of tack and my next job lasted for 19 years until I retired.

During that time I watched the likes of SABENA and Swissair go down the toilet (whilst still going on strike for this and that).

We all know that MOL is an ars*hole and that he is not the sort of person that you would invite home to meet mummy. However, he is a pretty successful predator and has so far kept a lot of pilots in reasonably well-paid work with stable rosters. I can imagine that the Ryanair management is not too good in the "touchy-feely" and "let's be nice to each other" department but I have proved in the course of my long career that flying for nice people can be positively damaging to your health!

Would you rather work for the likes of SilverJet, Zoom or XL perhaps? I'm sure they were all great fun but great fun does not impress the bank manager (nor, for that matter, do nice "thank you letters" from the MD for a job well done).

eagerbeaver

Yes I did because the alternative would be an even deeper shafting ! millions of other workers are also foregoing a pay rise this year.
I would prefer everyone to belong to BALPA and have a proper negotiation but can't see it happening soon.

Seriously BelArg how much do you know about Ryanair? Are pilots sent here by the courts to serve a sentence? Do the cadets join up at gunpoint? If not then do you think we are all morons with no choices?

If it's so GodAwful how do they manage to attract experienced pilots who should know better?

Why were pilots not flying out the door when there were loads of jobs around in the past few years?

Aerobat

Seriously mate we are wasting our time. It appears that if you defend Ryanair in any way you must be some sort of idiot/masochist/loser/............whatever.

I don't like deals being imposed either but I never get an answer from all the so called experts about where they can get a better deal, or why they are still here gobbing off year after year but don't have the balls to actually try somewhere else. Hypocrisy!

JW411
I'm sure many will say I am lying but I have seen a nice letter from MOL to one of our pilots thanking him for flying him around on a trip.(A line FO btw, not a base Captain or such)

If I get sacked soon you know why! Can't let it be known MOL might be human! :ok:

Regrets I've had a few...
 

Mine was joining RYR (and meeting my 1st wife). Excluding crew (flight and cabin) you will generally deal with the most ruthless, obnoxious, double dealing b**stards on the planet. Your throat will be cut for tuppence, all on the caveat of costs and share options.

Filth....

Stan Woolley:

Funnily enough, that doesn't surprise me. The fact still remains that the thank you letter wouldn't have impressed the bank manager!

It is if it puts food on the table and pays the bills.

ASFKAP:

I worked for a predator for sure but I was never ever ill-treated.

I think you may have jumped to some ill-considered conclusions.

My predator was not MOL. I am now retired and never worked for Ryanair but,in this climate, I would rather work for them than stack shelves in Tescos.

This thread confirms my opinions :}

It seems that if you rock the boat your sacked, wonder what the response to an "unecessary" tech log entry down route is? What concerns me is the comments of supposed ryanair pilots! Reluctant 737 comments when he has more money he would do some light aircraft flying for fun and not log it if it conflicts with duty hours! It is that regard for legal regulations, CRM and safety which is why I have never had any wish to fly ryanair even in the back!

I have just sailed past the 500hr mark on the 738 with FR. It's my first commercial job and overall I am happy. I knew what I was getting myself into before I joined and to be honest there is very little that I could regard as being a complete and utter surprise to me.

I have had 3 bases (2 during line training) and my present. It's not where I want to be ultimately, however it isn't the worst as I am able to stay with relatives/friends during my 5 days on. My life would be a lot more simple if I had my base of choice however I know guys who are a lot worse off (in terms of how they have to commute to work, cost of living away from home etc). I was in line for a base transfer in February, however it never materialised (for reasons unknown to me). When you seek a reason, no one can give you one or the person you need to talk to is unavailable. Important lesson is not to let it get to you. You will see people in the base that you want who themselves do not want to be there. You will see new cadets being moved into your base of choice when you had been told a month or two earlier that the base was overcrewed and would be for the next 6 to 8 months. However these stories aren't anything new and like I say, I was aware of them before I joined.

The money is decent, however if joining as an FO be aware that as you become more expensive (see Brookfield rates of pay) you are likely to be used less. I am late twenties, married with a kid, two properties (one let out), a car, credit cards etc etc. I have, by industry standards, a small loan to repay as a result of my training. I am still managing to keep my head above the water and I am able to enjoy some of the finer things in life, however it takes careful management and planning of your finances. I would also point out that if you are based in Ireland things are becoming slightly different to how you declare your income. This applies to Brookfield guys and gals and indeed the whole concept of being 'self employed' with regards to the Revenue Commission. Ultimately you could find yourself worse off.

Flying wise, I couldn't be happier. I feel myself developing every day. The guys I fly with sitting in the left range from highly experienced skippers to recent command upgrades. I have never regarded any as being incapable or unprofessional. Enthusiasm and a willingness to learn will see you develop at a steady pace. There is a wealth of knowledge available in Ryanair - if you want to tap into it! The training is of a high standard and the SOPs are there to protect you. Career progression is also good. Within 4 or so years you could have went from cadet to FO, to SFI to Captain. LTC and TRI/TRE could soon follow. All very transferable skills gained in a relatively short time.

One thing that can get to some is a certain level of lack of respect within the organisation. You could certainly say it has been the root of all evils. Some people may entertain a certain 'them and us' attitude. Whether it be management and pilots, pilots and operations, pilots and cabin crew, pilots and engineering - the list goes on. It is obvious that there is a 'I dont give a **** about you because you dont give a **** about me' sentiment circulating. This leads to problems and ultimately when you find yourself backed into a corner, this attitude is the one which will see you shafted. I definetly agree that we need some degree of representation. I am a member of BALPA, however it's unfortunate that many of their efforts have been in vain. Ultimately I believe its because of the 'FUJIMAR' attitude in the airline - **** YOU JACK I'M ALRIGHT! This attitude however will usually come around a bite you in the ass as there will be no one there to help you when you need it most!

So there you have it. I fully believe it's down to how you approach the job. It's going to be harder for you if you are leaving behind something that bit better i.e in terms of T&Cs, ethos and values. However then again you may be willing to surrender all this for more money and a bullet proof roster. In terms of joining as a cadet, well there is an arguement to the fact that this is all you have known so therefore it's ok. Slightly 'more worldly' individuals will know that that is a different story. However there are no misconceptions. Ryanair does exactly what it says on the tin.

RED WINGS,
kindly justify your CRM or safety concerns, or. . . . with the greatest of respect,:E shut up. In 6 yrs with Ryanair I can assure you that I had many inconvenient "techies " down route and was never once even under a hint of pressure to declare otherwise. Again, with the greatest of respect , you are speaking from your sphincter. (is that how we spell ass ? )
I don't think anyone disputes that our dear ol MOL could indeed be accused of being a bar steward.
When people query why one would wish to work for one I have always asked the question, "would you rather work for one, or for a company competing against one" ? QED :hmm:


Callsign Kilo,
I don't ever recall reading a post that so succintly summed up life in RYR.

I think you deserve an anti-bafta award for managing to sum it up so well without any of the usual hysterics/histrionics we see here.
Thank god some people manage to maintain some sense of realism in their observations/expectations in life.

Aerobat

Ryanair will make 100 million euro profit and you agree to accept quite possibly the most one-sided, unreasonable ammendment to a contract that was not due for renewal for another three years.

Are you a member of Balpa? If not why not?

Why don't you believe unionisation is possible in Ryanair?

Have you visited repaweb.org? If not why not?

Are you aware of the current court case in Ireland? If not why not?

I am shocked by your complicity, what are you afraid of?

Just to clarify, at Ryanair we are never penalised for putting anything in the tech log even if it down route, we would never be encouraged to exceed Captains discretion and we never have to explain a go around.
A lot of people on here that don't work for Ryanair spout all sorts of crap but the truth is we are trained to and expected to operate legally to a high standard - the last thing the company wants is an accident.
Our flight deck electronic monitoring has a very high capture rate which will result in tea and biscuits for non standard or hot / high approaches etc.

Aerobat, that damn thing had me for exceeding bank angle within my first week on the line! Nothing came of it, but had a slap on the wrist...

I was still used to flying that 172 into Swansea making 'unofficial' GPS approaches to 'uncontrolled' airports! Some nifty maneuvering required sometimes!

And RED WINGS, kindly refrain from making a judgment on me until you've found out more relevant details. By that I mean, mine and my colleagues' monthly/hourly limitations are under IAA rules only. I think you'd find pilots in the UK (and indeed most corners of the Earth) flying hundreds of hours on top of their flying at work.

Is non-declaration of hours frowned upon? Yes. Is it safe? Yes, even more so. Does it happen? Yes.

And for the record, I follow SOPs biblically when I'm at work - out of work, it's up to me to determine what's safe and what's not. And I know that after a day or two off, I am very capable of taking a light aeroplane up into a sunny morning, loaded with a couple of friends to have lunch somewhere. Old Buckenham rings some loud bells when I mention food! Hmm, perhaps I'd better get that aeroplane sooner...

Ad

And for the "avoidance of doubt" if one of said "friends" had a PPL, it could indeed be that he was the "Commander" on the day/flight concerned ? :hmm:

Word to the wise ;)

Indeed - I have a few friends who fly or are learning to fly. I used to be able to take the 'trainees' up every once in a while and let them have a fly around, pass on a few tips and whatnot! Unfortunately that's no longer taking place, but I'm sure when they qualify the tables will turn and they can take me up for a spin.....

......or two :E

And no doubt they'll pass on a few things to me their instructor's taught them. That's one of the great things I love about aviation, it's one veeeery big learning experience, and generally, people help each other to enhance that experience :ok:

Good boy, think (hope ) you got it.

Nod's as good as a wink to a blind man eh ? nudge nudge wink wink know what I mean ?

Christ I must stop watching Monty Python tapes :ugh:

Reluctant, my comment was aimed at your earlier comment that you would fly a light airplane for fun (fair play im with you there), but choose not to log the hours if it conflicted with your work/duty hours! Doesnt matter what ICAO state you work under you are legally required to record ALL flights in you log book!

As for the comment to justify my comment on CRM see above them and us though various departments along with the well known oleary management stlye! I remember with ammusement the great "blow job" interview in I think Germany.

I hope what you say is true about pressures with tech log issues, I really do!

I'm glad to see you got over your little 'wobble' Mr Reluctant, you obviously no longer 'hate the job'. Or was it just a wind up? :confused::rolleyes:

Paracab,

Thanks for the enquiry - well yes, ironically (considering current times), things are much better these days.

I never did hate the job - now I realise my earlier qualms were entirely circumstancial.

Funny how chicks mess with your mind - I think they're a species best steered clear of! And no, there was no implication in that statement!

Ad

I have to be honest, the sustainability [with the right base] is appealing.
It is all very well and understandable to point out differences, more specifically where Ryanair fail. However, a very stable roster and money that allows for a very comfortable existence alongside a steady home life.......


Still, the training regime is shocking :ugh:

Fair enough old chap - just thought for a moment that rather a lot of JBers had been taken for a bit of ride. Then you mentioned chicks and it all became clear (never forget that they are all generally lunatics, wired up different from us lot ;))

Enjoy it all you lucky bugga :ok:

Reluctant737

I can only talk from a female's point of view, but it's not a wonder you can't keep a girlfriend when you want to spend your time off doing what you do for a living.

Perhaps you should consider getting a life and leaving planes alone during your time off.

I wouldn't be impressed by a guy who wants to endulge himself in what he does for a living in his time off, what would you think of an accountant wanting to go to maths seminars over the weekend?

Flying is a job, but dont let it take over/run your life!

Good luck in the future with us girls, yeah right!

mm.x

Flying is hardly 'just a job'. Fair enough that a standard '9-5' job in the office should be forgotten about on time off, but pilots fly aircraft because they love it and it is their life; it's difficult to switch off to something you love and have such an intrinsic passion for.

MM,

My good lady understands my passion for the industry and also appreciates the difference between flying for work, and taking my sisters boyfriend up for a cruise at the weekends.

Its not as if we are having an affair, I know she loves to do things in her own time and im not going to stop her.

Its all about understanding.

Anyway, back to the thread....

Nick

I am afraid I have to disagree with the last two postings. I agree I feel very lucky to do a job that I actually chose to do, as opposed to most people who somehow find themselves in a job, but it is still just a job.

I believe there are two kinds of people in this discussion:

Those who live to fly and those who fly to live.

I am the latter and therefore am happy to have nothing to do with planes in my off time.

Unfortunately, it can be the case that certain peple who fall into the first category come across as shallow and with no interests outside of flying and that can become boring.

Each to their own though...

Nice one south coast,
I think most people see a gradual transition from 'live to fly' to 'fly to live' as they grow up and get families etc.
As for ryanair this debate will never be finished....

South Coast

my god what a load of bull!

theres no way anyone got into flying because its a decent job, you have to like flying or theres no way you would make it through all the training, how you can say people who enjoy flying on there days off are dull is beyond me, sounds more like you live a very sad life yourself and cant see the fun side of anything anymore

flying a 737 is a fun challenging job and has great rewards (coming down all the time though!) but it in my eyes are far more fun than the equivelent job of maybe a doctor dare I say? but its still there to bring in the money and pay the bills.

as for flying on days off in light aircraft, whats more fun to someone into aircraft than taking up a C172 with a couple of friends on a sunny day and flying down to the north of france for a bit of lunch and sightseeing then a trip back at lower levels than FL380 been able to look at the scenery and do turns of more than 30deg if you feel like it and maybe the odd touch and go in different configs to demonstrate to your non flying buddys a bit of what its like in your working world,,,,,,,, i feel sorry for you if all flying is to you a way to pay the bills,,, your missing out on something fantastic that many of us still appreciate.

Heh, see what I mean...

I have a lot to offer the right person, but then again I've only seen girls involved with aviation... bit of an airhead I am!

zerotohero - I'm 100% with you on that one buddy, it doesn't get much better than lunch and walk along the sea front in L2K or Jersey! And flying can take you to so many romantic locations. One day, perhaps I'll meet somebody who appreciates what I love, and of course it's that mutual understanding that makes the sound foundations of a relationship.

Belive me MM, I've shared many happy times with people, but more often than not it was work that took us apart, not what I do on the side (rock climbing, ice skating, skiing/snowboarding, paragliding, taking my friends/family out to cool places.... and dare I say it... flying....) :rolleyes:

And plus, I'm 20 years old - I'm not going to change for somebody else, life is there to enjoy, not to mess around worrying about relationships with other people who will probably fade away with time anyway. I've developed the art of self protection, and I feel fortunate to have experienced at my age what some may not know until their 40s, or indeed never...

Hey ho, it's all a learning experience :ok:

I must be odd I was never interested in flying and got into aviation for the craic! Its much better than my last job and never boring! I love flying its such a challenge and buzz. 99% of the people I work with are great and made some real good mates. Best decision I ever made. I had some money 25 years ago and didn't know what to invest in........so I invested in a known commodity MYSELF!

Info for new cadets
 

Could any of you kind gentleman help? I recently pass my interview with Ryanair and will start my TR this summer. Please could any of you help with the following?

1) With the news of the new pay deals, has this changed things with the brookfield rates of pay?
2) Once you are brookfield will you ever get a contract, is there anything you can do to influence this?
3) I think they base you anywhere they want but ask you for any preferences. Are there any places you will stand a better chnace to get for the Summer/Autumn. This way you ahve a little more say than being based anywhere if you request paces which clearly have no positions?
4) Finally anyone know which bases will see most expansion, outisde UK?


Paul

Thanks

As it was and as it is
 

Hola Reluctant737 -
xxx
In a sense, I recognize you as I was at your age, or about the same. Add about half of a century of years, and aviation, and I might be today, what you will be in 2050. For that I wish you the best. However 1960 was notably different then that today is.
xxx
The only thing you do not know is what is it to be, say, a "50 years old pilot" flying his career, for which the main reason is making a living. You do not have that experience, and you are (lack of life and career experience) unable to compare.
xxx
1960 was different. Many kids of my age, dreamed of being pilot. I would say, 99.9% wanted to be fighter pilots, Mach 2, 60,000 ft, F-104 Starfighter. Being a transport (= airline or military) pilot ... how horrible..! Flying a stupid Convair CV-440, a cargo DC-3, a C-119 or a Pembroke, what a disgrace. So I took the military pilot career as my goal. Going to the dance clubs, then to impress young ladies required a flight jacket with a F-104 squadron emblem, and a MG sports car. I was one of those. What I cannot grasp is, why today's young guys with dreams of being pilot, do not dream to be a FA-18 or Rafale "Top Gun" jockey instead of "driving a cattle car" limited to 30º bank.
xxx
But in training in USA (NATO) I had met USAF pilots (reservists) who were in real life, airline pilots, who had a paycheck with 4 digits... living in a country with palm trees and blue skies. They told me that airlines were keen on hiring jet fighter pilots, so was my first aviation education. Join airlines...
xxx
I joined the airlines for $$$ primarily. As a low life F/E 727. Then became F/O, then instructed in classroom and simulator besides line flying. Of course, I did love flying then, but the financial aspects became more relevant. From love of flying for airplanes, it changed to love of flying for money. The change occured around the time I became a captain.
xxx
No need to mention how the industry turned with the Middle East war 1973, deregulation 1979, airline bankruptcies, layoffs, unemployment, bankruptcies, and being based far away from home (half a world away). Eventually I got married, quite late in life (I was age 50 when we moved to live together). And then, airline job became just that, a job, and a paycheck. My wife was the most important thing for me. The only thing I kept on liking were the layovers, flying with a crew that were all friends, getting my wife along on trips, visit far away places with reduced fare tickets and discounts.
xxx
An aviation career goes in stages. You are as you are today, because you are some 20 of age. When you will be 40, your ideas will be completely different. I am retired now, and in view of the airline industry as it is today, never would I want to start that career today. All my mother paid, was my PPL. I would never spend $100,000 to become a 737 F/O, Do I miss flying, yes, as it was, not as it is today. Flying a 737 with FMS and auto-this and auto-that from Manchester to Amsterdam would not turn me on.
xxx
Good luck to you all with RyanAir an equivalent loco. And get out of these operations ASAP for a better life, a better paycheck, and respect of your pilot peers with legacy airlines. When I am in Europe, Paris to Brussels, I travel with the Thalys TGV city center to city center in 70 minutes, not Beauvais to Charleroi, and wasted hours to go to/from airports and being treated like cattle.
xxx
:rolleyes:
Happy contrails

Thank you for your post BelArgUSA,

Well I can't really reply to anything specific form your post because essentially that would defeat the ideas behind what you're saying!

I'd love to have flown for the military, but unfortunately I didn't rank particularly high in the eyesight section of the genetic lottery (fortunately I came pretty damn close in every other area :ok:).

Well I'll tell you what, from my limited experience, worries me most of all. More than this bloody recession, more than redundancies, or abused payscales, or any of that.

What worries me is the future for pilots. And I'm talking two or three generations ahead - it would be an awful shame if the great century of aviation (as it may come to be known) was only that, a century. Summer days at the airfield where prospective pilots digged deep for that first trial lesson, layovers in exotic locations for short/medium haul crew (can't really avoid it if you're long haul), and a general 'family feel' between pilots all over the world.

Yes, I really worry for that, what with the advent of the 'new age', health and safety, advancements in computers, so on so forth.

Perhaps I'd have done better back in your day buddy :ok:

Then again, I guess the grass is always greener...

what a load of absolute absolute ****!!!this should be called the reluctant737 bores you to death show!if we want to read about your life we may buy the book.maybe we can back to dicussing the future for ryanair pilots rather than little boy pastimes and teenage girl fantasies.
for those who can look beyond daily existence or even have an interest in an aviation career as opposed to living with their head in the clouds,STAY WELL CLEAR OF RYANAIR!!
maybe you should have got your eyesight tested before you signed the ryanair contract,oh thats right it changes in front of your eyes.

On another thread it apears ryanair contracters are getting pay cuts.Any word on Brookfield slashing pay rates?im sure its not far around the corner?

Grim Repa (good handle),

I was in two minds as to whether I should actually bother replying to your post because it's utter drivel, but I'll bite -

Then skip my comments, you have the ability to organise what you read do you not? Or would that be giving you too much credit?

Well first of all, there's no 'we' in this whatsoever - thus far there has been no contribution to this thread from you, postive, negative or otherwise, except to insult behind your shadowy mask. Again. And regarding the latter part of your comment, I can assure you sir, I partake in hobbies outside of work which would leave you trembling like a little boy.

Always the same story isn't it old boy? Well it all boils down to two possibilities. You are either an underskilled pilot who managed to drag their sorry ar*e through flight training via much 'yes sir'ing and 'don't worry with that, I'll wipe it for your sir'ing, coupled with a few partials and retakes who then failed to pass our very high standard selection process. Or on the other hand, you are a pilot elsewhere (real or Microsoft) who had a bad experience on one of our flights, perhaps the cabin crew didn't have time to deal with your small problem involving one stuck fly zipper, or that your water was a few degrees too warm for your delicate palette?

I'll leave the choice up to others to decide, but I don't think I'd be alone in saying you're a voice on here that is increasingly beginning to sound like a broken record.

Whatever your qualms are with Ryanair, why don't you take it up with the airline, instead of b*tching about it on an anonymous message board?

Just a thought... :rolleyes:

Go on then, enlighten me, what kind of person might that be?