Do BA pilots really deserve our support re Openskys?
 

BA pilots are asking for our support in their strugle against openskies, my question is do they really deserve it?

Before some BA pilots shout "we dont need your support" remember you have through your BALPA CC asked for support through IFALPA, one form of this is the IFALPA recruitment ban on Openskys.

Having read other threads on PPrune and observed the elitist behaviour of the BA CC over the years regarding DAN AIR, BA Cityexpress, GSS etc and the sheer arrogance of some of the BA pilots who have posted on here I think not................let them fight their own little war and sink with it. They argue that they set the standards to which all UK pilots aspire.........I think not anymore, many European companies have better terms and conditions than BA, in fact I think Virgin are a better bet regarding general T and Cs.

And only 18 months after you returned your strike ballot!

What do you think?

Since it was only last month you were talking of applying to BA, I would have thought it was in your interests that we succeeded! :rolleyes:

2 Feb 2008, in thread titled BA747 rostering:
:confused::confused::confused:

In order to stop a thread drift i have sent you a PM tandemrotor.

I am not interested in joining BA.

Tandem,

You are aware that by coming across as a complete pompous ass you do your own cause no good?:rolleyes:

As a non BA pilot, we need to think "pilots as a whole", the action they are taking will preserve the ground for the rest of the up coming pilot community who one day will step in their shoes.

The actions taken against pilots are very rarely taken by pilots, we need to speak with one voice and preserve the rights we have regarding our choice of where we wish to fly and for whom.

well said kwachon!! a lesson BA pilots need to learn i feel ;-)

Random air, yes that really was a bitchy little comment that has nothing to do with the thread, verbal reasoning has nothing to do with spelling... its about being analyitical and absorbing information....prob why it took you three goes!:);)

Yes I think we should pledge the same scope, and support that BA pilots pledged for all the other pilots that were or are in the BA group! :E

I suspect most of you haven't thought about the effect Openskies will have on the industry in the UK.

Sounds arrogant but if BA use this as a "Trojan Horse" to force in lower t&cs across the BA workforce then some 3300 pilots out of 10-12,000 (ish) commercial pilots in the uk then that can only set a precidence to other operators in the uk who may use BA salaries as benchmarks.

Hmmm....

From this:

Bluepilot 02 Feb 08
to this:

Bluepilot 23 Mar 08

and from this:

Bluepilot 07 Feb 08
Bluepilot 08 Feb 08
to this:

Bluepilot 23 Mar 08

From which we can deduce that the PFO letter from BA / OpenSkies arrived on Bluepilot's door mat earlier this month! :}

Sounds like BA selection got that one right! :D

Seconded. That'll be bugger all then.

Dick dead eye you couldnt be more WRONG!!

By the personal attacks you are pointing in my direction you are confirming the arrogance that has really pi**ed me and alot of others off over these proceedings.

As you have pointed out I have gone from a supporter of your cause to an opponent (seemingly).

You just dont get it do you??? This is not about me this is about working TOGETHER AS A PILOT COMMUNITY.

Can any of you (BA pilots) admit that there were mistakes in the past and those mistakes have bought this mess apon you.

will you ever learn ? :ugh::ugh:

I'm an arrogant, condescending, chip on his shoulder, silver spoon in mouth BA pilot:ok:

Whatever anyone thinks, every airline in Europe is watching this dispute and its outcome.:uhoh:

If BA succeed then you can bet your bottom dollar that the bottom line for pilot pay and conditions will fall further and faster than they are at the moment.

If I were starting out then BA may not be my first choice, clearly bluepilot has that choice, he/she is a lucky person:D

bluepilot - what would you do if after joining Openskies, your management (inept and immoral...as you may find out) decide to set up another company to employ pilots to do your job for less than the going rate? Wouldn't you ballot your fellow Openskies pilots to protect your agreed T's and C's?
In a way, it is a pity that you didn't join us in BA. I've lost count of the number of newbies that join us ranting about millionaire BA pilots living like Lords doing bugger all work. Normally, they change their tune after 6 months. Those that don't seem to go into management to work out ways of enriching themselves at evrybody else's expense. If you join Openskies, you will find this out. Knowing the management involved in Openskies, all I can say is "Good Luck". You will need it. Please don't say you weren't warned.

To all BA pilots
 

You have got my support ! It is time for pilots to stop fighting each other, that will only drive T and C:s down, down and down.
Management give each other bonuses and 20% payincreases, maybe if we stopped fighting each other. . . .

Good luck to you guys in BA

I will try to explain the reason I have started this thread.

Most pilots at an early stage learnt to learn from their mistakes, analyse information and act on it accordingly.

Over the past few years the BA CC have allowed BA management to get away with murder regarding T and C, they have believed that they were working in the interests of their members by “allowing” franchises, BACX , GSS with the small reward of a few commands within some of these companies. What has happened is the BA CC have allowed non BA pilots to fly BA planes for years and years and worse still have severely p**ed off fellow pilot communities as well.

Now BA decide to start openskies, a different company working in different countries but flying bread and butter routes to the USA, the BA CC say no! Not without the pilots being on the mainline list, shout “BA planes BA pilots” but hang on??? non BA pilots have flown BA planes for years, (and before you all jump at me and say AHHH the B757-200 is a BA owned plane remember it was planned to be replaced anyway and is being “sold” to another airline). The sheer arrogance of the BA CC by not insisting that ALL pilots who have flown the flag in the past were on the mainline list has come back to haunt them. The BALPA chairman JM stupidly enraged the non BA pilot community by inferring that this dispute was also about standards and using BA038 as an example. He inferred that if an non BA pilot had been at the controls of that aircraft then the outcome may have been very different!!!! It all boils down to this, the pilots, BA management, BA CC and BALPA are guilty of corporate arrogance.

Now to answer my own question “do BA pilots really deserve our support re Openskys”?
Damn right they do! We all make mistakes and as professional pilots we learn from them, what the BA CC did to BACX , GSS etc was wrong, it not only damaged the pilots in those airlines it severly weakened the BA pilots future case with openskies, they must learn from the past and never ever allow this situation to arise again. As a BALPA member it is my duty to support my colleagues in BA, no they should not fight their own little war and sink with it, but we all need to learn from this BA and non BA members alike, unless we pull together and work together better in the future we will all suffer.

Management have done a good job in dividing the pilot forces, lets not let them conquer us!

bluepilot

I think I now see where you are coming from, and I am genuinely (and humbly!) grateful for your support!

All I can say is that there are two sides, to all the BA associated airlines to which you have referred.

I do not believe you can realistically expect 3300 BA pilots to go on strike for the sake of 4 aircraft's worth of freighter work. (That is the current GSS agreement) I'm not even sure it would be legal.

Nor would many have gone on strike to incorporate 50 seat aircraft into mainline, as per BACX. (The RJ100 pilots had the opportunity, and will revert to mainline in two years)

That is not to say we wouldn't have supported those pilot groups, had they decided to force the issue! But they didn't, and haven't. There's the rub!!!

To paraphrase your earlier post; the BA CC did nothing to BACX , or GSS that would have harmed their chances of joining mainline. We want GSS work in house. Why wouldn't we? But it's not our company, and presumably there are many of their pilots who don't want to be BA!!!

OS is totally unlike the previous examples. It involves aircraft of an unlimited size (unlike BACX!) and in unlimited numbers (unlike GSS!)

We haven't found it easy to raise an army even over this obvious attack! It's 22 years since we last struck!!

What chance do you think we would have stood with earlier issues??

I'm sorry, but sometimes people have to take responsibility for their own situations. I'll support anyone who is prepared to down the tools!!

I hope others feel the same, but if they don't........

Many BA pilots just will not face reality.
Their once cushey jobs are on the decline, and reality will set in sooner or later.
OS is just the first of a long series of cost reducing efforts, yet the BA pilots continue to resist, with their silly 'bans' etc.
Management will prevail in the long run, make no mistake....they always do.;)

In addition, I wonder why present BA pilots would try to convince others...after all, it's their 'fight'.
Why not just go on strike instead of pithering about all the time?
No backbone perhaps?:}

Fantastic.

It works!! :):):)

This thread is bizarre. It's really hard to read for the frequent last minute edits and what the hell is a BA CC and BALPA CC? CC is and always was a flight attendant. Cabin Crew. Have I missed some form of newspeak? Aside from that, this is a no brainer. They need our support. End of story.

CC = Company Council

Click

"CC" is short for "Company Council" - a group of pilots elected by the Balpa members in an individual airline who negotiate with their management on matters relating to their company, assisted as required by professional negotiators from Balpa head office.

However, the question about support is a strange one. Balpa at BA has an incredibly high membership percentage compared to some UK airlines, and if they really believe that this new airline shouldn't happen then all they have to do is to vote for strike action. 90 something % of BA pilots walking out and standing over smoking braziers on picket lines at LHR and LGW would certainly have an effect, I should think. Until they are prepared to do that they shouldn't be calling on other pilots, who might need a job, not to apply for one if it is advertised.

Just before I run for cover I would quickly add that I am a Balpa member at a UK airline, I don't work for BA, I don't want to work for BA and I don't want to work for Open Skies so have no vested interest.

No, the BA pilots do not DESERVE any support, they certainly haven't supported anyone else in the past, and are very unlikely to do so in the future.
Their chosen mouthpiece, BALPA, is the most perfidious bunch ever to disgrace the co-operative movement, association, union, call it what you will. As an ex DAN captain I can vouch for this. Regrettably however, the T&Cs that they negotiate entirely for themselves do act as a benchmark and these do have an effect on the whole pilot community well-being. Galling though it may be to support them and their jackals, it is probably a necessary evil. It will be interesting to review the outcome in the future.

The IFALPA ban is patronising, divisive and threatening. I am quite sure it works against BALPAs objectives as whatever their standpoint, pilots will react against being threatened.

Pilots should be united. Thay have my support. :ok:

Do BA pilots really deserve our support re Openskys?

Good question - overall I think in the interests of the industry as a whole the answer has to be yes.

That said, IMHO, there are one or two individuals posting on Pprune who are doing an injustice to their cause.

Any attempts at intimidation here do not do the majority of BA pilots any favours. Start calling people "Scabs" (charming term from the dark ages) if you must once you've got yourself a strike action. At the moment intimidation is likely to lose you support and harden the resolve of those considering Openskies.

The T's & C's offered by Openskies may not be as good as what's on offer at BA but the stark reality is compared to quite a few other companies they're not bad. The fact is people will be interested and apply no matter what is posted here.

There also seems to be an arrogance over the qualifications/selection into mainstream BA compared to OS. This is not helped wth quotes from BALPA spokesmen, like:

"This is going to create flight crews that are not as well-trained and experienced as those currently employed - it's a major problem."

and other references to less able/qualified pilots.

What unsubstantiated rubbish this is arrogant and insulting to the rest of the pilot community. There are plenty of excellent pilots around who chose not to apply to BA or even attended Cranebank and didn't quite fit their mould.

MD :ugh:

Twelve months ago, in a galaxy far, far away....
Mmmmm?

Anything you want to share with us Min Drag? :rolleyes:

No wonder you are so outraged at "references to less able/qualified pilots." :E

Are BA's conditions really a benchmark nowadays?
 

We now see some airlines charging for type ratings and even for line training, however these ideas were not developed by any flag carrier in Europe. If an airline wishes to erode their Ts & Cs then they don't wait for innovative ideas to be formed by large airlines. With the unstable economic environment - if our employer perceives that they have a need to erode our conditions then they will, regardless if BA lead or not.

The working life for flight crew has changed over the past decade or so, with flag carriers now offering a working life which is becoming rarer as time passes with the touring and night stops etc. Many LCCs and smaller airlines like to advertise that if you join us then you don't night stop and you get home every night. Also coupled to that is the fixed roster that easyJet and others now offer. For some people this is a significant benefit but none of these initiatives have been modeled on any flag carrier airline such as BA.

Airline management now need to be as ruthless as ever and they won't hesitate in altering our conditions or lifestyle for the worse if they see a need for it and they won't wait for big brother for follow. With the business models and the resulting working practices being quite different between BA and many other airlines, the days of comparing 'like with like' are starting to become numbered. If conditions were altered for the worse at BA - I don't necessarily see that the ripple effect will be as large as some may think.

Counterpoint
 

I wonder if you or your company has been involved in any pay talks or negotiations in recent times?

Because if it had and your CC was astute enough to the fact that BA is recruiting on their current T&Cs into mainline, you will find, provides considerable leverage during any "benchmarking" exercise on pay or conditions.

For example most legacy charter outfits have for many years benchmarked themselves to BA for that very reason. To try and keep their pilots. That doesn't mean we are paid the same but it does mean that we enjoy a lifestyle that for most is similar to that which they would aspire to when working for a huge flag carrier.

In short BA guys, however arrogant the precious few on here appear to be, deserve our support. Anyone with basic insight into the industry can see that yes we - as a working group will be forever afflicted with the O'leary curse of terminal cost cuts and attacks on our livelyhoods. At some point there has to be a stand.

In BA that Time is now... quite rightly because having come from a an underling post in airline management myself - trying to do what we all suspect BA is doing is EXACTLY what I would try and do if I was a senior - bonus driven - share optioned - Manager. Thankfully I'm merely a humble driver apparently I had too much personality to make the cut!

I add that I would question some of the arguments been suggested on here particularly about BA038. But overall BALPA needs to be strong with this one. It they back down now it will be the beginning of the end to many of the quality arrangements - sure for BA at first but all that negotiation leverage for the kids on the other side of the playground just disappeared!

So whilst in their articulation and execution they may be flawed. BA guys need our support and deserve it.

The view: "well I don't have that therefore he shouldn't" is quite frankly offensive and perhaps says more about ones character - casting doubts on the ability of one to be enjoying any of these hard fought benefits in any of the Higher Cost carriers in the future!

Make no bones, the outcome of this fight will have an effect on the Ts and Cs of every pilot in the UK and maybe Europe. A national carrier sets the standards for pay and conditions for all carriers in that country.

A fight worth fighting. Give the BA pilots your support.

I don't think that the outcome of this fight will have any impact on those airlines whose conditions are already appalling when compared to BA, or other flag carriers. In my airline, we wonder in envy at those T&Cs and associated perks, and there is no way my airline could or would ever match them, no matter what the outcome is. I suspect some people take the envy to an unhealthy extreme.

Certainly, if it is your desire to work for BA in the future, then you should care. If that isn't your bag, then I don't think it does matter. But perhaps I am missing something? Why this juncture, why not in the past with BA Connect, or GSS, or even GO - what's so different about this? The 100+ seat argument is lost on me, but I'm not very bright.

On the contrary. If you even have a sniff of your present T&Cs improving at the moment, specifically if there are better deals elsewhere and folks keep leaving your outfit to get them, market forces dictate that your outfit will have to improve it's T&Cs to retain it's pilots. If the T&Cs at other outfits deteriorate to match those in your current outfit, where is the incentive for them to be improved at your outfit?

It's not rocket science.

a very complex issue,best tackled after a hearty meals a copious pints.but my take is,that you and i have to support one another irrespective of where we work or out viewpoint.one may well think that not supporting one another is irrelevant in this day and age.the harsh truth is that pilots need to to be more united now than anytime since the creation of aviation.aviation is at a crossroads and failure to work for the common good falls right into the management trap.the catch 22 of this situation is that one may well have to work for the benefit of a person they dislike.but only by stepping above the individual profiteering,will their be a future for all.think outside the box,your manager does.
one may think that a simple act of selfishness is ok,in time it will spin around to bite you on the ass.the signs are all around us.no one is exempt.

I believe you're right, and I believe that BA pilots are right, at least from a the perspective of Pay and Conditions survival....however, anyone from GSS / Connect / BACX / Dan Air may be excused for wondering where the support was when they needed it too. Still, I'm quite quite sure that we're all sufficiently altruistic to "do as you would be done by" and gracefully forget the days when the bat was not even greased before being abruptly inserted.

I can't spell altruistic - but I certainly remember the bat!
Fortunately for BA pilots, my support or lack of won't affect things, because I doubt I'd cross the road to p1ss on them were they on fire!

Oh gosh, Kurtz, do tell us how you really feel...:E

In actual fact, the BA guys (and gals) I have met downroute many times have their beaks well above ground effect...just the nature of the beast, I suspect.

However, no matter what they think now, they will not achieve...the company has plans, you see, and it is not in the companies best interest to abandon OS, nor is it in the companies best interest to concede many points.

Look for a compromise, with the BALPA guys on the short end of the stick...just where they belong.:zzz::zzz:

Quick question for TLP, and Kurtz, with both of whom I am well acquainted:

You are both rightly bitter about your piss poor handling in BACX/Connect at the hands of British Airways Plc

This had absolutely NOTHING to do with BA pilots!

But in any case you had your OWN Company Council did you not? A group of your OWN pilots elected BY YOU to represent YOUR interests!

Did you have a strike ballot over any issues??

If not, why not??

We don't wish to be pissed on like you were. We are prepared to take action to prevent it.

As I have said earlier in this thread. Sooner or later, people have to take responsibility for their own situations.

I'll support ANYONE who downs the tools. I just don't recall that being you. :rolleyes:

Edited to add:
Almost forgot!
Beaut! :E

how old are you? buy your own cpl and hate the world for not giving it to you on a plate? did one of us steal your wife? i have only been flying for 18 years but find this level of non-sensical hatered beyond belief.

your comments betray a level of intellectual simplicity that airline managers the world over have wet dreams about. your bitterness can only be the result of failure or percieved betrayal. I have flown with many pilots who on having had the sh*ty end of the stick somewhere else ended up in BA. their determination to get the best deal for them and their families says a lot for their motivation and qualities . I can only guess on the tortured path you took to your present job but I am sure that your statement says more about the qualities you possess than any personality flaws in us spoon fed, fat cat, porsche driving nigels.

if i wasn't being paid more with a better pension, staff travel and holiday entitlements than you I might actually want you to cross the street! as it stands you don't worry about us and we will just get on with trying to look after ourselves which in turn should help everybody out.:O

The three voices of BALPA.
 

There are three ways to misrepresent things:

Suggestio Falsi:confused:

Suppressio Veri:oh:

Listening to a BA pilot :yuk:

Oops, nearly forgot the fourth, listening to management.:ouch:

The game is not worth the candle; Dan Air have long memories, and so do we.

PPrune is utter s**t sometimes! Thanks for reminding me.....

And Good Ol' 411a tops the list!:yuk: