Ah, reading this makes you proud to be British!

All across America there are pilots in full support of BA pilots (even thought this will have little effect on American pilots) because they have already been shafted and don't want to see it happen again.:ok:

Then on this side of the pond we have the small minded, bitter, twisted individuals who would cut their nose off to spite their face because they feel they were harshly treated in the past.:ugh: No wonder the country is in such a mess.

If you felt hard done by in the past just wait until (if) BA get their way. :hmm:

I really do not get some of the reasoning and bitterness about stuff that has got nothing to do with the current situation.
I joined BA only a couple of years ago, trying to make a better living for me and my family.
95% of the guys/girls I fly with are top notch operators/consumate professionals and are well aware of the state of industry as it is in now.
This is partly due to our CURRENT excellent Company Council who I think ARE changing the way a professional union should respond ; but it's also due to people applying foresight and informing themselves about what 'will or could' happen in the future (be it tomorrow or in 10 years time).

I am absolutely sure mistakes have been made in the past, however its implications on how to act today bear no relevance to me. I'm staggered about people spouting untruths without informing themselves, and the blinkered view that it won't affect them.

I've been in the LOCO world and towards management within it and we certainly benchmarked ourselves a) to our direct competitors and b) to legacy carriers. To retain talent suitable for promotion and reduced training cost/turn over.


In no other profession have I seen so much bitterness/anxiety and resentment then in aviation. We owe it to ourselves to be professionals and support eachother.
Keep this industry somewhere dignified and a good job to support a wife and kids.

I'm doing 900hrs a year, can get called anytime in the week to come to work.
My pension won't be more than 25k a year (after 30years service, thanks to the new pension deal) and I'm certainly earning less than I would have earned as a Captain in my previous company for many years to come.
So in short, we are just like any other company now and fight for what is left.

Management love the divide and conquer rule, and seemingly on pprune it's all too easy to create that scenario without management input.
Stop putting your fellow aviators down.

A humble BA pilot

Jambo - Habari?
 

Good post and good luck to you, although I have to wonder why you left your previous - it sounds like you're a junior LHR FO. Hope it works out for you, genuinely.

You suggested:
Which is great, human, and sensible. The trouble is those of us who have had our attempts to do exactly what you propose, have found their careers in ruins and themselves disadvantaged for no good reason other than the arrogance and selfishness of the modern day equivalent of the "Atlantic Barons".
Being human, it's difficult to reconcile that with the pleas for support via IFALPA from those same people - even though I believe they are actually right in their supposition that OS is the thin edge of a very fat wedge which will inevitably reduce Ts and Cs across the Industry.

Fortunately I have no card to play, and no money in the pot. I chose a more sedate regional route and am happy and content with family etc all doing well. However when I read some of the cant and hypocrisy, not to mention the downright lies regarding what happened to my previous organisation when it was part of BA PLC - well, the blood tends to heat up a bit.
Sincere apologies to anyone I've offended here, it's impossible to know which of the more erudite characters were really in situ at the time, but I was, so I know!!!:=

The question at hand is; "Do BA pilots really deserve our support re Openskys (sic)?"

As an FO effectively forced out of GSS by the retrospective imposition of secondments, and based on several other deeply callous and arrogant actions by the BACC/BALPA over the years, I would say; emphatically no!

If the question were "should we support BA pilots re OS", I would say yes.

Hear hear!

It seems that BA pilots are fortunate that some of us are less greedy, selfish and arrogant than the BACC representatives have been down the years.

However, if you really want support, buy a crutch - all of our kind words will make no difference to the outcome. More, if I needed a job, (and I'm certainly well enough qualified), I would be phoning OS, and certainly not deterred by the 'Scab' word. When we talk about supporting our families, our own are always more important than anyone else's. That is a concept that the Porsche Pickets seem unable to understand.

It's interesting that all the bile and venom on these threads seems to originate from those who have never had the balls to stand up to their own employers. Rarely does one see that sort of criticism from the pilots of strong companies with decent BALPA representation. Perhaps they recognise their fate lies in their own hands instead of always wishing to blame somebody else for their woes?

Hand,

The problem is that there is a wide perception that the BACC used that strength and representation to further there own interest at the expense of pilots with less barganing power, even though those pilots were in the same union.

We could argue (and Tandem Rotor could make snide, pompous and thus self-defeating remarks!!) till next century as to the ins and outs of the actual individual circumstances, but it is that peception you are up against.

To go to the wider pilot community with the case that "We've looked after ourselves in the past, now help us look after ourselves in the future" is going to be dismissed by sufficient pilots (a good many ex BACX turbo-prop pilots as a convenient example!!) to crew Open Skies and any other five subsiduries BA wish to start!

Perhaps a little ownership of this resentment, and a quid pro quo, more inclusive attitude in future might engender more support.

It's a union Wiz, not a communist society. The cases you site are never about an individual company building up it's own business, finding it's own market and customer base then having it stolen away by BA pilots. The cases are other outfits attempting to steal away business from BA pilots. GSS, a blatant breach of the BA scope agreement with a single, solitary customer; BA. BACX RJ fleet, a direct transfer of work and career opportunities out of BA to a lower cost outfit. Tell me honestly, do you think a union that supports direct transfer of work from higher to lower paid workers in any profession is a union worth having? If your management tried to hand over a 12 strong fleet of your 777s to a lower paid subsidiary and exclude you from flying them, would you really support that?

Nonsense - how about you actually read scope HS?

As you cant be bothered it says that mainline may 'bid aspirationally' onto ACMI freighter commands (and freight goes to mainline when >6 a/c) - NOT that ACMI freighters would be prohibited.

The problem was that the whole thing wasn't going to work unless BALPA let GSS recruit lots of FOs and let it get running for a year or two, before dropping the bombshell on the GSS FOs that their commands were to be given to BA FOs. Just to rub it in, nothing (such as staff travel or seniority list access) was offered as recompense - GSS was BA territory when it came to taking commands there, but not BA territory when it came to anything else.

As for being spineless, seeing as BALPA was orchestrating the whole thing, who were we supposed to turn to? - IPA - yeah, right!

Anyway, I think we digress

Very eloquent words my friend Shaka Zulu, very nice. In lowcost land, every year we hope our salaries get benchmarkt with BA's...true, true...but here is the question amigo.

You ask for the support of the rest of the flying community, but would BA pilots support their comrades in easyJet, Ryanair, Wizzair etc. when they put down their tools?For I am sure that you agree that the lowco's have had a far greater impact on BA than any benchmarking will ever have. So when the day comes will you join them in battle? Or will you too look on from the sidelines? Can they count on the BA-pilots?

Tell me yes, and I will believe you. I want to. Unity is what we all need.

No prob, hand.

I tried to put across that perhaps a little introspection and empathy might be useful as you ask others to support your cause, but I can see your self-justification is complete and inpenetrable, so have at it!

Penko, I think the answer to that question has got many facets.

First of all , you need a union with a sufficient member base and sufficient backing to carry a strike vote....

Look at RYR: divide and conquer, play every base out against eachother. Thats why MOL objects so violently against REPA, a concerted effort to have everyone on mutual ground.
It's the LAST thing he wants.

EZY: Has got the union representation and the membership base to pack a punch. Hence it's T&C's are what they are. However the company is trying to dilute union involvement as much as RYR tries to do. Setting up different bases/different contracts and make them isolated from eachother. >>divide and conquer.

Wiz: Not familiar with the situation.

Second of all, even if you have the percentages, what issues do you 'ballot' to strike over and which do you not. I think it's clear in the past that some issues should have been taken on the head however it's important to remember that if you poll for a strike and the support crumbles for whatever reason effectively the union is dead in the water and can be sued for damages aswell. More importantly the company will claw back far more than what you were originally striking over.
Ultimately it's very very difficult balancing risk/gain and membership sentiments (REAL membership sentiments)

Prime example is the final salary pension and the contribution pension that BA has now.
It's not a shimmer of it's previous self. However I've flown with no-one that has sais they were in favour of the new pension deal. Interesting when there was a majority vote for it to save the old....
Even if a strike was decreed would there have been the support of the membership to push it all the way.

Only with a proper information campaign is it possible to get guys thinking along the same line. And this is effectively where the current BA company council is SOOO different compared to the old.

So yes, from my perspective and I would guess BALPA's aswell if there is a clear vote/backing/and sensible issues to strike over then I think you will find a lot of support around the globe for your actions. The key is information.


@Wiz, I would hope we tend to be fairly introspective and rumours about what we 'should/could' have done in the past have been rearing up on our private forums aswell with considerable differences in opinion.
I think it's important to remember the union/councils dilemma in aligning all the differences of opinion. I'm saying that the job of aligning is done the best I've seen it over OpenSkies.
Part of that is, there is so much at stake, short and long term.

Hand said:
Sounds pretty similar to OS really then.
Wiz, great posts, common sense, keen character observations - I'm with you mate!

In what way similar to OS? The RJ transfer represented a direct reduction in the number of mainline pilots. OS would represent an increase in the number of mainline pilots. Do at least try to grasp the issues at hand before commenting.

M.Mouse said:
 

I wonder if he, Hand Solo, Tandem Rotor and the rest have the balls to admit the same over their treatment of fellow "BA Airlines Group" fellow aviators?

I am editing this post at the request of Mr Mouse. below is the content of an email I have sent him. Odd really, I would have thought there were plenty of reasons to have felt ashamed to work for BA from dirty tricks to surcharge fixing, from disrupting flights and inconveniencing pax to mismanaging terminals. Ah well, always good to see an employee support his Company!



I wasn't aware that the specificity of your post was so well defined - I mistakenly thought that you were ashamed to work for BA for a whole variety of understandable reasons.
Please accept my apologies, I'm confident you can understand why anyone should make that mistake about a BA employee these days.



Let's make it plain - M.Mouse is only ashamed of working for BA SOME of the time, for VARIABLE reasons!















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Nope, thought not.:yuk:











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Hand, you are so far up your own back passage that you cannot comprehend reality. As the Wiz commented, You really, genuinely, totally do not see or acknowledge any other point of view but your own. That's why you lot and Walsh are so similar, that's why you, and what passes for the UK National Carrier have really had it. I'll certainly honk if and when I drive past the picket line - I'll smile too, knowing how many egos are being re-aligned with reality.
The actuality is that it'll never come to a picket line - you're already screwed, you just don't realise how much of it is down to yoursleves.
Genuinely tragic, lions led by donkeys as someone remarked a few years ago, although he didn't stop to question the educational qualifications of the lions - maybe they made the donkeys look like Einstein!

I see others viewpoints perfectly well TLP, but I also know boll*cks when I see it written. I'm sure David Irving firmly believes the Holocaust was exaggerated, but I certainly don't empathise with him or believe his writings. Now I want to make it clear that I am in no way comparing you with the odious Mr Irving, but just because you strongly believe in your view doesn't mean it's right or I should agree or empathise. In all my years on PPRuNe I think I have seen a handful of BACX pilots who had a realistic appraisal of the business situation of BACX, in that it was screwed. Wrong fleet. Too many aircraft. Too many bases. Poor crewing. Poor reliability. Wrong market position. Reliant on wet leasing contracts and monopoly routes for profits. Once the Lo-Cos came along, particularly Easyjet, BACX was a dead man walking. I don't need to tell you that you are not one of those BACX pilots. Perhaps if you, and your CC, had accepted that reality earlier you'd have behaved differently. I can't say I blame you for grasping at the BAR RJ jobs, after all a drowning man will grasp at anything to keep afloat. Just don't try to tell me that just because you are grasping at those jobs means it's right that we should hand them over lock, stock and barrel.

That perception is accurate today, but was not so at the time in question.
All BACX pilots (and GSS, and Dan) ever wanted was what you lot are now insisting happens to OS.
(But I'm sure you can show how the strands of the debate are suffieciently different to warrant an opposite view - you reallyshould be in politics. Mind you, ain't this where Rob Hall came from and went to - hmm, thought provoking.)

Your case is a ridiculous transposition of argument based, again, on self interest.
I've nothing against self interest, after all, it's the ultimate motivator for all of us except the most saintly and unattached, however the way BACC and BALPA twist and turn makes them no more than the moral equivalent of Walsh and BA management. You deserve each other - I'm glad I'm out of it, and while I still have strong feelings about the past and will not allow the more ridiculously extreme statements to go unchallenged - ach, a pox on both your houses. The Regionals will do rather well out all this, as the debacle of T5 has shown tonight.
World's Favourite - IPML!;)

TLP forgive me for not being there when the whole BACX saga was unfolding but after doing a bit of research on the subject I've got the distinct impression that the 'mishandling' of it all can definitely NOT be attributed to the average normal BA line pilot.
Too many factors/too many opinions/too many ego's/too many interests....

We're digressing again into a useless discussion because of past skeletons in a very dark closet. Leave it be, just for once.
The only thing we seem best doing as aviators is moaning.
See the threats to Employment and T&C's for what they are.

I for one would like to preserve this job for future generations as something worthwile.
And so do many many of my fellow BA pilots, who display a lot of foresight and guts to take the company on over this.
Of course there is a vested self interest at the heart of it all but intrinsically there is nothing wrong with that. You have to pick your fights carefully if you want a powerful mandate to protect what is yours.
You don't necessarily have to agree, it's a democracy after all.

If you look at how market forces work than most certainly the following rule is true:
if you lower the benchmark then your own company council (if you have one) will find it harder to negotiate a good deal when you are up for improving your lot. Even find to have more downward pressure than up.

I thank anyone who comes out to support us, and do not judge your average BA line pilot on impersonal forum postings. Make your own mind up with the facts that are on the table.

regards
SZ

Good post Shaka.

I was at BACX too, BRAL before that, Manx before that, Loganair before that from the mid 80s onward - so I know exactly what happened. I was attached to the BACX CC at the time as well, so I'm well informed, which is possibly more than many on both sides here.
I'm not going to comment though - what's the point? People have a right to be bitter - but it won't solve anything. Other people can remain intransigent in ignorant selfdenial - that won't prove anything either; the argument is not worth a bucket of warm spit!:\

As to the thread question, without any doubt if Open Skies flies, then ultimately the Ts and Cs of every European Airline pilot will suffer. So I hope it doesn't. Succeed.

However:

1. Will I go on strike to support BACC - No. Can't afford to, and it would be illegal.:=

2. Will I stand on a picket line, join a march, honk as I go past - No. I don't believe in behaving like a union dork from the 70s when I also believe it is pointless and will achieve nothing. Just more posturing.:cool:

2. Will I offer my moral support - of course, it costs nothing to scroll a post on here in the full and certain knowledge that it's free and that it will affect precisely nothing.:hmm:

3. Do I think BACC will win - No.:uhoh:
Option a) The courts will probably say a strike is legal, but if they don't - BACC lose bigtime.:(

Option b) If they say it's legal, the threat remains and will cause BA management to negotiate a compromise, which will be a foot in the door, and which will precipitate the aforementioned fall in Ts and Cs. At the end of the day, being human, BACC will, just as they did with the pensions row, look after present members at the expense of future ones. That's the way it is folks. Anyone who thinks differently should re-read the posts about the pension row, remember all those threats to bring the company down if anything was changed, all the threats about really meaning it, the line in the sand, etc etc. Just meaningless trite propaganda.
We live in a world of change; change is inevitable, hence change will come. In industrial terms, change never involves the employee benefiting more than the employer (Descartes, Rousseau). Further, change always involves new and more efficient ways of functioning (Thos Paine).

Check your history books, stop squabbling - be glad you're not just starting out in the business. Forget this utterly pointless dispute, type "Peak Oil" into Google and consider how any of our futures look if we have more than five years or so still to pension. (Ah, yes, pension, well done BACC:rolleyes:)

In that case, can you just remind TLP why you didn't ballot for strike action over access to mainline??

I'm genuinely interested.

Certainly.

We had only had company recognition of BALPA for a very short period of time, we had just integrated three airline identities into one with all the problems associated with that, we had a succession of BALPA head office assigned personnel changes and were basically new to the whole union thing.
We had expected help, assistance and advice from BACC, perhaps it was a mistake, but the majority of the agendae of the meetings and presentations (with one or two individual's notable exceptions) at that time were aimed (possibly understandably from their perspective) solely at securing the preservation of BAR pilots Ts, Cs and lifestyle. BACX was regarded as "Plastic BA" which irritated a number of senior and exceptionally well qualified personnel in BRAL, Brymon and Manx - this confusion spread throughout the membership and did not facilitate amity or progress at the meeting table. BACC simply would not discuss any seniority list issues, far less support them.
Quite possibly, and obviously I am now into speculation rather than history, had BACC extended assistance, seriously helpful advice and support as we knew they had with Cityflyer Mk 1, it might have been very different. The really odd thing was that the incoming BA DFO actually DID support the BACX CC aspirations for many things at the beginning, and was enthusiastic about us working with BACC.
Anyway, it was not to be. The BACC offer for the RJ/146 pilots must have designed by a political illiterate, there was no possibility of it ever being sold to the BACX workforce. Even with positively spun hindsight, the Emb and TP fleets would never have voted for it, hence there was no possibility of it ever being recommended. Regrettably, rightly or wrongly, it was perceived as more of the 'Plastic BA' attitude and as I recall what few cordial relations there were broke down quite swiftly after that. Also at that stage, as the fleet changes, base changes, management changes, total airline format changes gathered pace, there was simply no possibility of concentrating on any one issue, and to have recommended a strike ballot would have been meaningless as the day to day change, disruption and individual concerns were over riding. I would suggest that to push through a serious threat of industrial action, a totally united and focussed workforce is require, and for a variety of reasons, after BA became the owner of BACX, this was never achieved at any level - which was particularly irritating because the cultures within Manx, BRAL, and Brymon were actually mature albeit different.
I doubt if it was actually grand strategy on the part of BA or BACC which caused it all, I don't believe anyone was (or is) that clever. Certainly the BACX CC made mistakes, but they were largely errors of judgement due to complete inexperience in role. Nobody's fault, nobody was supposed or required to help out with advice and support, but I think there was great surprise on the BACX side that we were treated as "Plastic BA" by people we had initially considered to be new colleagues. Perhaps an expectation that BALPA would be a broader church on BA Group issues than proved to be the case.

Hope that helps a little, a lot of water has gone under the bridge since then. Pilots are peculiar creatures, there are still Thomsonfly pilots not happy about the Orion seniority issues, there are FCA pilots unhappy about the UK Leisure issues, there are even ex Manx pilots still unhappy about the Loganair seniority issues, and there isn't a Manx Airline any more!

Quocunque Jeceris Stabit!

Thank you, that is helpful and if I may say, an entirely understandable assessment.

One follow up question. When did the BACX CC request specific assistance from the BA CC (on ANY issues), and if it was denied, then on what grounds?

Thanks again.

TR

I would think you'd have to check the minutes for exactly what was said and by whom. Given the vagaries of this forum, unless I got it word perfect, I would be flamed, and as I mentioned earlier, I have no wish to comment - at least not in a way that takes sides.

In parenthesis, my opinion would be that the BACX CC were enthusiastic and keen to become part of BA. I think we all saw it as part of a great adventure - we'd been bought by the world's favourite, surely that had to be a good thing? Perhaps the BACC perceived this as being brash and impressionable, gauche even - I really don't know. I don't actually remember things ever getting as far as a formal request for help; certainly any interface where BACX movement onto the seniority list was discussed just resulted in what were seen initially as postponements, then put-downs. The impression was that we were a nuisance, and had been responsible for the demise of BAR - which was far more important. Again, with 20/20 hindsight, perhaps it was all a great misunderstanding. The endgame was BA management telling us it was up to BACC, and BACC saying it was up to management. We became disappointed and cynical, particularly because all the concessions were one-way, secondees, commands etc etc and rightly or wrongly some of our number decided we were being taken for a ride. Eventual pressure and repitition resulted in the RJ/146 offer. Coincidentally, if I remember aright, there were no CC reps from those Fleets, but even if there had been, I doubt it would have made any difference.
As a CC, we grew up quickly - I think it's a shame BA mainline guys here denigrate the BACX CC - it was no coincidence that nobody was voted off.The only changes over the next couple of years were people standing down for personal reasons - I know one was actually virtually pushed into a medical retirement, and another arguably hounded out following an MOR incident. Yet another mysteriously failed a Command Course. The BA management (who I think just danced as the strings were pulled from London) became much more authoritarian and unco-operative; there was so much work to do that seniority became a back burner, or even a dead duck to mix my metaphors. I don't believe there was ever any substantive opposition to what we did through that period, in fact quite the opposite.

Not one of the most relaxed periods of my life! Happier days now.

I tend to agree with Jack's a dull boy.

BA Pilots are taking commands from GSS First Officers because of BALPA.

As far as im aware GSS is owned by Atlas Air and was only set up to keep the UK CAA and the Unions happy.

GSS fly freight for other companys and only have some of their aircraft in BA colours.

So why do BA pilots not support the First Officers of GSS and let them have the commands they have earned ?

When DHL started flying freight charters for BA a few years back, in EX BA 757s , there were BA F/Os on PRUNE asking about the possibilities of getting direct entry commands at DHL.

BA is not the bench mark for all other airlines, when the lesser airlines of the world can't get pilots, they improve their terms and conditions, they don't ring the BA CC and ask whats going on at BA, If they did have BA,s terms and conditions they'd go bankrupt pretty quick.

Pilots never stay together as a group they don't support each other, BA pilots are proof of that at GSS, will BA pilots come out in support of say Silver Jet pilots if they were to go on strike, I don't think so.

Good Luck to you all.

I will support ANYONE who has the cojones to down the tools!

I just don't remember any of the afore mentioned groups actually doing it.

That's all.

And Devanious: Your first posting under THIS name???

Your phrasing reminds me somewhat of a contributor by the name of Min Drag, who we know has taken a position at OL.

Strange!

Thats interesting, as when I recently spoke to a GSS pilot deadheading on one of my flights he said they didn't have any other customers. I guess they must have got a load more in the last 2 weeks.

Because that would be illegal secondary action, leading to the pilots being immediately dismissed by BA and BALPA being sued for unlimited damages.

Previously I posted this:

My intention was to point out that there are a few individuals here on Pprune doing the 3,000 or so BA pilots an injustice with their attitude and leave it at that but it obviously touched a nerve in the way that the truth often does.

Tandemrotor - I think your two rotors are producing some weird harmonics cos you are totally wrong about me, however I must thank you for proving the point I was making.

I genuinely have absolutely no idea who the hell Delvanious is - perhaps the moderators or Delvanious himself could help here? I don't even know what GSS is let alone be able to give an opinion on it.

I can also assure you that just because you made a connection with me wanting to move to France (which didn't happen), does not mean I have a job with Openskies. I'm sorry you'll have to throw your "scab" abuse elsewhere, I most certainly do not have a job with Openskies and am in fact happily employed elsewhere. Back to detective school for you Sherlock.


The last time you made it personal and posted about me you went back and edited it later. Are you gonna do the same to this one in an attempt to stop yourself looking the a**e you clearly are?

BTW best of luck to the huge majority of BA pilots - none of us want or deserve an erosion of T's & C's.

MD:ok:

I have to agree having been a victim of tandems personal attempts to discredit myself.

Tandem just because someone does not have the same view as yourself does not mean that you should launch a personal attack on them by trying to discredit them, it does you and your cause no favours at all.

Sensible debate is healthy however.

I am glad most pilots who have entered this debate have shown their support for our BA collegues. It is also healthy that some pains from the past are discussed, people then hopefully learn from these mistakes and injustices to help to a better future............but then i always was an ideallist!

Hey bluepilot, are you me? Or maybe I'm you or maybe we're both Delvanious? You must have a job with Openskies. Maybe we all live in France, are all "scabs" and all have a job with Openskies. Lucky Openskies!!

Fortunately we all know that Double Whirling Washing Rotor doesn't represent your average BA mate.

MD OS DHL BMI RFA FRA RAF RN Wocker Wocker BA SN over yer shoulder paranoia cx ur six in yer wardrobe :ok:

Best of luck (despite Tandem) to the BA crowd.

MinDrag said about Tandem:

Heavens above, now you'll get no peace - but a bl00dy good comment. Quite accurate. It's an interesting point to note that the recall actions of Hand, Tandem and a few others, immediately on sensing any imagined, factually based criticism is to launch an Exocet. Really does nothing for your credibility or your case, it's counter-productive.

Bluepilot and MinDrag - nope, you're both working for BRAL, and I'm the launch A380 customer......LONG LIVE DELVANIOUS!!!!

Fact remains, BA pilots do not DESERVE our support or sympathy, but our own interests militate that we give it.

Whether they deserve it or not will make no difference to the result.
They're doomed.
........and some of them deserve it.

From where I'm standing, there were few mistakes, just a load of folks, who were not prepared to stand up for themselves, and now bellyache about the fact that those nasty BA pilots wouldn't fight their battles for them!

Sooner or later people have to take responsibility for their own situations.

If you wanted to be mainline, what did you do about it?

Should we support the BA pilots in this - I agree with TLP; unfortunately we probably should - BUT the current situation is partly of the BA CCs own making:
As a ‘rasher’ (ex BACON now working for FlyBe on reduced terms and conditions) Openskies seems a tempting step up that a number of my colleagues will take despite the bleating of BA pilots. Undoubtedly we the BACON pilots were at fault in spinelessly doing nothing while BA sold us and our terms and conditions down the river, but the BA CC, as the biggest and strongest single grouping within BALPA, could have shown leadership on behalf of the wider pilot community, (thats what a Union means) thus gaining general respect and support.
Moral arguments aside this could have been seen as enlightened self interest as the current level of inequality leads to those of us lower down the pecking order grabbing any opportunity that presents - irrespective of what IFALPA say.
In the case of BACON as in so many others (Dan Air, GSS, etc) the BA CC chose the path of narrow self interest and thereby lost the right to preach to the rest of us - you can’t have it both ways and say its your job to look after the BA membership only, and then expect the support of the general membership when it suits you.
It’s also sad to think what this says about BALPA - not so much a union, just a lose federation of individual interest groups most of whom will have to suck hind tit when the BA pilots want to feed.

oh god your at it again tandem, "from where i am standing there were few mistakes" and with that attitude you expect others to support your cause??? what an idiot, you are really harming your cause here pal.

What i did was fight it and I AM MAINLINE but not british airways.. KLM :D:D again you have made yourself look a right arse! go on edit your comment! or maybe just maybe you have the GUTS to appologise?

Apologise for telling the truth?

There's a novelty.

Actually bluepilot, it is you who may like to edit your post. I generally find p*ss poor spelling, and punctuation, tends to detract from the overall message!

along with 411A tandemrotor now on block list :)

Tandem, come on why aren't you responding to me? You make accusations you can't substantiate and then go off at someone else trying to divert the flack.

It was me, not bluepilot, who noticed you editing posts after you obviously sobered up! I intended to make the one post and leave it but you made this far to personal.

If you want to accuse me of being someone I'm not and I respond where's your spine? At least have the decency to defend your accusation and support the grounds on which you make it.

Who cares if Bluepilot alias me (and anyone else the voices in your sad head are telling you) are making spelling mistakes, it doesn't matter. You have no credibility and have brought any/all criticism upon yourself due to your arrogant, selfish, bombastic attitude.

Do yourself (and most of your colleagues) a favour and disappear.

MD:ok:

PS anyone reading this who thinks I'm being harsh please take the time to read thro' this thread to understand that I posted my opinion once a few days ago and was personally attacked by this individual and have had enough of his attempts at bullying & intimidation.

If his attitude represents that of the BA majority then good luck to Openskies and those that choose to go there to put the coffers in the bank to support their family's.

Peeps, check out the OS recruitment thread, Mr Doublerotorbrain has posted on their that I have a job with OS too!!!

Cuckooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo:ok:

Do you really need to post the same thing twice on seperate threads?

God it's sooooooo good to be out from under the 'BA umbrella' which our idiotic parachuted-in 'management' :rolleyes: used to say was our great safety-net!!!

I've gone lo-co and I wish I had done it years ago!!!! Earning 50% more than they paid me AND I am home every night with my wife and kids, not living out of a suitcase. The colour of happiness..... ORANGE!!!!!!!! (And I can ignore the rantings of those who sought to freeze us out of any prospects because we had a few aircraft over 100 seats... heck, I was able to fly more passengers than Concorde crews! How did 'scope' cover that???!!!! :} )