Brainfade,
The main thing Flybe gets is customers. Instead of competing with BA Connect on similar routes, they will soon have a captive market and they can then increase their fares. This results in an increase in both passenger numbers and yields, which in itself results in bigger profits.

This is a business opportunity for Flybe, it's not simply a case of the directors buying their Flight Operations department 400 experienced pilots and some discounted aircraft leases.

Seniority will be a big issue. My concern for the BA Connect pilots is that this is a take-over. When CityFlyer was taken-over by BA, a number of CityFlyer pilots wanted a merged seniority list with BA. However, following legal advice they were told that BA did not have to do this as it wasn't a merger it was a take-over.

Good luck to everyone in BACon and Flybe.

Forget It
 

Forget it.
There are other airlines out there. Why gamble with your future.
I'm off to a BHX baby interview.
A jet job with loads of prospects. :ok:

False Capture. What the company may be able to do legally is one question. What it will take to retain over fifty percent of BACON pilots who, to a man, are considering their career options elsewhere is another thing.

It may technically be a take over, but from where I am sitting, Flybe is just doubling its size. It is not a case of just tucking a small group of planes and pilots into the company. It is a huge root and branch expansion.


The project is dead in the water if it is approached on the basis that we will take any crap and be glad of it. If the attitude "To the Victor the spoils" prevails I am quite certain that we will all be out of here.

Update
 

- TUPE will NOT apply as the deal with FLYBE is a ''Share Capital Deal'' ie Transfer by Share Takeover...when the company shares are sold to the new shareholders, there is no transfer of the business.

- Also BA Connect redundancy policy of double statutory is 'non-contractual' so when the company is sold by 31st December I believe the FLYBE redundancy policy applies. I know all the crew will be taken on but there will be duplication in other areas so people will be redundant. I've scanned everything to try and find FLYBE's redundancy policy but if someone could PM me.... would appreciate it!

- BA Connect staff are now classed as internal applicants with Mainline until 31st December..... not sure how this applies to aircrew.....

There is some concern as to whether FLYBE have got the gusto to take on all of this and whether they've have bitten off more than they can chew. For all our sakes, FLYBE and BA Connect, I pray it all works out but what happens when FLYBE is floated......BA increases the 15% stake to a buy-out and thank all for doing a better job of streamlining and cutting costs...

One other point. Local Westcountry news stated on Friday that FLYBE are not happy with the sale of EXT airport! Is there anything to stop them getting a compensation payout from Devon County Council and moving lock stock and barrel into BA Connect accommodation/hangars located in BHX and MAN???

Staff meetings this coming week should clarify a few more things as there are more questions than answers!!!

Firstly, I'm sorry that you've all been shafted like this.

Secondly, I'm sure most of my collegues will join me in wishing you all the best and for those that choose to join us will welcome you with open arms; at least we might stand a chance of having a bit of a life with more pilots on the books.

For those of you that don't want to join us, good luck to you. Just remember:

Easy and Ryan ARE looking for pilots, but preference will be given to A320 series/B737 qualified pilots, the younger the better. It also takes months to be given an interview.

The recruiting window for the Charter Airlines is probably closed until next summer and anyway you'll be in the RHS for years.

Anywhere else, you take your chance with every other wannabee and 5000 hrs on a 146 isn't necessarily going to get you into Virgin or Emirates any quicker. Furthermore, the upheaval in your family life might just not be worth it. You'll also be in the RHS for years.

Flybe may not be the greatest, but at least they've said they're going to give you a job. Maybe you need to draw several deep breaths and consider the future calmly and without paying too much attention to the b!"£$%^& that all too often fills these pages.

Whatever you decide to do, best wishes to you all.

BH - You sound like a management pilot.

Lucky to have a job does not wash anymore. Either the combined company has decent terms and conditions (and yes we will probably lose some of the more farcical disruption payments) or it will end up with far fewer pig pilots than it thought. Then the company will find itself lucky to employ pilots....the 145s etc still have to be flown for the next 15 months until the leases expire...checkout the cost of disposing of them before then (BALPA have all the details).

Interesting link comparing company vital statistics.
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/80/airline...ices_Table.pdf

RMC

No, I'm not a management pilot. Just a normal line pilot that's been f"£$%^ about as much as most.

I'm not sure what you mean by "pig" - I'm new to this regional stuff. Do you mean 146? Flybe doesn't need 146 pilots, it needs Q400 pilots, and lots of them. If all the jet pilots walk, I guess they'll just operate the routes they can, ie the ones that are profitable, and bin the rest.

In the future it's not going to be a combined company. It's going to be Flybe. What the T's and C's end up like is anyones guess - good I hope. But in the end that largely depends on how the 2 CC's negociate; ours on how you guys are absorbed and yours to cut the best deal for ex BA Connect pilots. A thankless task as there will always be someone out there that'll accuse them of not having their interests at heart.

I'm sure everyone in BA Connect wishes they'd been able to stay with what they had and the company had gone from strength to strength. However, WW decided that wasn't going to be and you all got screwed. Flybe's a business and they can be ruthless if need be. Ultimately, whatever the final outcome is, you can bet your bottom dollar that it'll benefit them, and not necessarily you and me.

Best Regards,

BH

Goodbye Inv
 

ahhhhh! you poor poor pilots! you have such a hard time! yeah as if! count yourself lucky your not ground staff......From Dan Air to crappy BAR contracts handling a BA mainline service then BAX then BACON then at the end goodbye seeya.....looks likes the end of little inv.All i can say is good luck getting any sort of service from circus air as they will be the only handling company at inv and from what i can see in the past few years it`s not going ta be a good one......:ok: GOOD LUCK to all the cabin crew at inv hope you all have a job at the end of the day cos i`m sure us peeps on the ground will be walking soon.I`ll miss my cuppa at 0630 at -10 de-icing G-OINV......:)

Planter
 

'Forget it.
There are other airlines out there. Why gamble with your future.
I'm off to a BHX baby interview.
A jet job with loads of prospects.'
Unless they choose to keep Mainline BMI and sell, merge or just plain give away baby:ugh: or both :ugh: :ugh:
Something has got to give at that one too.

Planter,

If Baby has got 'loads of prospects'; How come so many Baby pilots appear to be looking elsewhere?

There are too many airlines chasing the same pax to the same destinations, especially in the Midlands.

Something has gotta give!

Binder

From where I stand, the only thing that FLYBE are getting out of this deal is a pool of trained up pilots. So you can guarantee that all we've heard so far is the GOOD news in order to prevent the stampede for the door!
Personally, I'm not gonna hang around to see if with a bit of luck I might just possibly still be flying a jet in 6 months time.
My advice to my colleagues at BACON is get out while there's jobs out there!

Unfortunately, like or not I think Dash 7 Lover is correct, that is a fact of law not an opinion, although time will tell who is right ir wrong.
I am not going to speculate here, mainly because I am not holding a cristal ball in my hands and I have NO IDEA what the future is holding for the two companies, but I want to wish the wonderful people of BAcon at MAN good luck in their future endeavours. I have never work with such good bunch.

To the 146 guys in MAN, thanks a lot for making this job fun...I am not longer staying at BAcon, but I will remember you all...

Take care and truly hope everything works well for you all....

And good look dealing with BALPA.......could be tricky
:)

fred,thumper has replied to your post.

so does anyone have any idea about whether it will actually be a TUPE transfer or not?the letter we received from the company yesterday is confusing,BA Connect will still exist and we will still be employed by them,so will there be a time when eventually we have to sign over to Flybe?

baby is growing
 

To the doubters out there.
Just because flybe is "expanding" you don't imagine baby getting back into it's cot do you?
Baby is gonna be 12 aircraft by the end of next year in BHX. It's got a brilliant identity and is favourite with the public.
The aircraft are 737. How that compares with the dash/emb is obvious.
I'm heading for baby, I've had enough nonsense and speculation.
I'm heading for 'relative' safety. :D

Planter

so far as all this TUPE/share sale etc.stuff is concerned someone who knows about these things explained it to me very simply.

Flybe is buying (ha ha! should have said been paid to take) all the share capital of BAcon.

So immediately after the transfer our legal employer remains exactly the same and all the contracts and agreements we have in place with BAcon have to be honoured.....pay, terms and conditions etc. Non contractual things like staff travel etc are a different matter.

at some stage in the (near I suspect) future Flybe will want to integrate the business totally into their operation and give us new contracts with new terms and conditions including a new seniority order where both groups are fully integrated. Clearly the terms of those new contracts will be something keenly negotiated by our Balpa reps, but I understnd that tupe WILL APPLY when this integration process takes place as it is the business and undertaking of BAcon which is THEN being transferred to Flybe.

Therefore Flybe cannot just tear up our Bacon contracts and expect us to sign up to lesser terms without facing the full wrath of employment tribunals and the courts.

As a group standing together within Balpa BAcon pilots actualy are in a position to significantly influence the terms that are offered as the law does give us significant protection.

I am sure that Flybe big shots will be reading this. At the moment we are mostly prepared to be open minded but Id say that you have a very short time within which to make a good first impression, because from what I hear just about everyone is putting out CVs elsewhere.

We have been lied to so much and bull****ted to so much that every one of us can spot dishonesty and bull from a mile. Whatever you do, give it to us straight or you'll get the instant and terminal disrespect
that is enjoyed by our David Evans and his fellow jokers.above all give us your main man to talk to, not (intending no insult) one of his sidekicks.
FACT

In terms of LCC,s baby havnt got out of the pram yet let alone get back in it.
Im glad you used the word "relative" because in the current climate no one around here feels safe.

thanks for that Noiffs

Well as I see it,and when all's said and done it doesn't look like I'll be keeping my job come next March, this has to be considered a 'hostile' manoevre,(when I studied Economics, 'twas de riguer to announce bad news on a Friday and good news on a Monday).

Now according to the crib sheet on t'intranet, we will still be employed by BA Connect, not Flybe.

I surmise that BA Connect will become BA Connect T/a (trading as) a Flybe company. This means there will be no need for things like common seniority lists' or redundancy packages,as current BA Connect T&C will apply. This will last until the current fleet have gone, then, maybe you may get offered an interview with Flybe, which is the same as current practice n'est pas?

IMHO this is all being done to avoid TUPE, but, anyway all that would have to be claimed is that the changes were for Economic,Technical or Organisational reasons....and with no planes to fly ..or fix.. last one out please feed the cat and cancel the milk.

More TUPE info here

http://www.cipd.co.uk/subjects/empla...tm?IsSrchRes=1

ttfn

Meeting
 

MidnightCruiser - Im not an expert in industrial law but I am a staff rep now responsible for finding 40 of my tearful and stunned colleagues, including myself, employment in one form or another with whoever. I know this is a pilot forum and I'm not a pilot but I thought I would share some info that I've come across and spent all weekend researching as my phone's been ringing off the hook.

We we're all aware that there would be an end to this in one form or another but just not so soon. THE PLAN - MAKE MONEY/SOLD OFF or CLOSED DOWN - that was it!

Final note - there is a BCCG (BA Connect Consultative Group) meeting with WW on Tue 7th along with representatives from all the Unions and management to thrash out the finer points of what this means for ALL.

Fella, I was you the last time this happen to you... 40 Redundenceys(SP) on your head is one of the worst things that happned to me. so much anguish and upset all on YOUR plate... I hope you get more support than I did... :{

I crashed my car one morning after a night shift which i was hurt enough to HAVE to stay away from it all (quacks orders) and I believe that had I not the whole 40 people losing there jobs thing would of probably killed me. :eek:
Make sure you have some one else who can share YOUR problems with, dont keep it inside like it did, it ruined me and my life for a year - depression wasnt the word :*

I know that you have one or two individuals with you who played this game with me last time, dont go down with out a fight... even if the "managers" answer every question you pose with a question....:ugh: :ugh:

I hope that the unions do better with you than they did us. I dont think that I actually made any difference to the proceedings, just made life harder for myself. and made the upper management look like they were doing the right thing.:yuk:

I wish you, "the team in your broom cupoboard" the guy girls out in the open plan and every one else that connected to that place I once loved!! :ok: :ok: the very best of luck!

PS... I still have the Horse!!! :O :O :O

BB

Dash, i hope you'll let us all know the outcome of tuesday's meeting with WW

According to FT today: "BA Connect has a workforce of 1900. Jim French, Flybe CEO said there would be "a couple of hundred job losses""

However, they seem to see the deal as postive overall with Flybe doubling it's turnover to £600 million and greatly increasing market share at birmingham and manchester. IPO of Flybe will now be delayed till at least Summer 2008 and not before amalgamation of the two airlines.

Article goes on to describe how Flybe has made profit where BAcon did not....

It seems unlikely there will be any pilot redundancies.

All the best to those involved

Think Again!
 

When Manx first took Loganair over, LC pilots all went to the bottom of the list and stayed there. There was all the same hot air about moving to other jobs, however, then, as now, the numbers didn't add up. There are jobs about to be sure, but not hundreds of them, not to mention the geography and family lives of people concerned. It was much much later, (rightly or wrongly) when Brymon came along, and Logy and Brymon people filled the BALPA CC (again, rightly or wrongly, cos the Manxies could have stood but didn't) that a deal joining the seniority lists was sorted which was fair to everyone except the perception of the Manxies. (Understandably)
In this case though, all you have to do is consider what YOU would think if you were about to lose a place on an Emb 190 course, or a move to the LHS, both with attendant money.......or even if such a move suddenly changed from being a year or so away to being off the radar - turkeys do NOT vote for Xmas. What we must be careful of not shifting all the angst, the bitterness, the righteous indignation about sold down the river, (with or without our crap 'designer' uniforms) onto Flybe. They have the whip hand, and they will not give up their own Ts and Cs anymore than Manx did to begin with. To spout rubbish about everyone going off to find another job is just that that, RUBBISH! Otherwise as we all well know, we would have done that two, three, four years ago when the ineptitude of the Evans/DLF/Hutchings team became apparent. Spare athought for the BALPA guys and girls. Insisting on unrealistic demands won't help their best efforts. Spare athought for Flybe - in due course their senior management and pilots will be meeting us, are we really going to behave like spoilt kids whose playground is closing, or are we going to at least try to behave like professionals. This is the real world guys, and we've been in Regional Aviation to see this happen - a lot! So let's wake up, smell the coffee, and accept this is a much better deal than WW closing the outfit down. It has been inevitable since we were bought. Flybe has GOT to be a step forward, and while there may be plenty of jobs out there, there are also plenty of wannabees seeking their first step into airline jobs. Good luck to the ones who try to leave - I also remember the ones who ran out the dorr shouting hurrah who were subsequently chopped, and tried to come back with their tails between their legs. I have to say the Flybe option looks much more attractive than being a 10 airplane operation wholly owned but not integrated into BA. Particularly as it will be top-heavy with PH etc, good god, what a prospect. I am buying into the Flybe game with both hands!:D

..............and it may be energy better spent sympathising and supporting all our admin and ops and engineering colleagues who may not quite have the luxury of the options we are being offered!

BH, Hadn't thought about the 146..."pig pilots come from an airline called BACON". We should all be aiming for Flybe to give the kind of stability we have enjoyed to all its flight crew. The one thing we saw from our mainline pilots was that solidarity brings results.

Rejoice!
 

Well the BACON SLICER forecasted much of this,- many of you dismissed what I said and likened my posts to half empty glasses rather than half full glasses of wine! So I was right. Correctly managed a BA low cost/Regional airline could have been a major player from 2000 onwards, allowing GO to prosper would maybe have stopped FR/EASY/Baby in their tracks but that did not happen, a successful GO could have absorbed the BACX regional element and produced a major European mid to low cost player. Oh dear. What a complete mess it has turned out to be despite the efforts of some truly professional operators both landside and airside – they never listen to us as we are only pilots.

However you all should rest assured you chaps/ girls will be welcomed into one of Britain’s most progressive business and I firmly believe Jim French will deliver on his promises. You are quite lucky really as Walsh would have simply closed the airline next year anyway, trashed the airline with corporate spin, dumped the planes and made hundreds redundant.
Congratulations to Captain Corelli – (read above), he has the right attitude! However many BACON Types will have to adapt to a huge culture change, I hope you all can and it will not be easy after all this time.

No more silly disruption payments
No scheduling agreement that stunts the business
No more BAR element
No more BA worldwide travel
No more confirmed Business travel
No more 2 or 3 sector days
No more expensive BA infrastructure
No egomaniac TRE/IRS’s in the sim
No more delaying flights for headset wipes for the Captain for instance! You know who!

Instead you will find a very different culture at FlyBe-

Yes- allows you to take a sensible amount of fuel
Yes -does not leave the crews worried about what will appear on the digital flight monitoring system.
Yes- no uniform in the sim!
Yes - lets you feel part of a progressive company
Yes- no more career driven ex (failed) pilots in management positions like Hutchings / Deacon / Phelan who all thinks Waterside beckons. Not.

And the best thing ever – you don’t have to wear those silly hats anymore!!!!!!!!

Have fun flying again- you will.

Welcome to commercial aviation!


Captain Bacon Slicer retired.

Dont forget delaying flights for full fat milk too!!!:eek:

Captain Correlli said

You are so correct on this one.

I understand for someone who has not been with BA Connect very long, this is good news. But for those who have been in the RHS or LHS of a 145, some concern about what they are going to be flying in the near future and how much are they going to be paid for doing so.

For those who have been with BA Connect for 12 months or so on the RHS of a Dash and were hoping to jump across to a shiny Barbie jet and a £13000 pay rise, they have to realise that at least they have not just lost their jobs and that are plenty of wannabes wishing they were in their shoes right now.

Sorry if this seems a bit blunt.

Those that my thoughts are with most are all the office staff at Didsbury, the BA Connect engineers, the push back crews and all those dispatchers who are in a far more uncertain situation. Flybe's aircraft will need pilots and cabin crew so you will have a breathing space to look for another job if it doesn't suit many.

I am not a pilot yet but an observer from the ramp.

How about "No Scheduling Agreement" so you wont have a home life?

Scheduling Agreements are good for everybody.

Loosing staff travel can be accepted, but loosing our scheduling argreement is something else entirely

Bacon Slicer

Excellent contribution!

You do make me laugh! You are too stupid to see the irony in your own posts!

WOW, how progressive is that!!!

Do me a favour you coward, and wind your neck in before you give any more of my colleagues, and friends any more good news!!!

There is a schedule agreement, it's not the best but is getting better.

Regarding TUPE
 

"The routes formerly flown by BACon will be flown by Flybe - that sounds like a transfer of undertaking to me.."

It wasn't when BACX took over all the BAR routes. Theres was no TUPE there.:mad:

BACON
 

Anyone heard any news on the engineering side?

Actually HOVIS, I think you may be incorrect.

I believe the cabin crew at least, were protected for exactly two years.

AHA2218.

All I can say is wait for the meeting Tue but even then we won't have all the answers. As I've said to my colleagues, go straight to your line manager with your aims and aspirations and take concerns to your staff rep to be raised asap.

Tandemrotor, dave

My whole point about what I say is "commercial Aviation" i.e. you have to make money. BACX/BACON is constructed so that it is not possible. By culture, by remit, by definition. I am no coward, I have first hand exposure to both organisations - FlyBe is not perfect but is a very viable business unlike the awful flea ridden BA lapdog that is BACON. Lots of good people work at BACON -things will change soon for the better for them and the business. At least they will know where they are as opposed to the situation of constant limbo that BA PLC has held them in for so long! No more and no less.

The good news Tandemrotor is that you have the "news"

Bacon Slicer isn't an exception. Over the last 2 years most of the high calibre pilots in BACon have found better jobs elsewhere. As a result, Flybe will inherit a lot of BACon's odd-balls.;)

Just as I was leaving FlyBE, a certain ex-BACX manager was trying to reduce the amount of fuel that was carried. Don't know how far he got with that plan! Shame realy because tankering for multi-sector trips was the only way you had any hope of completing a 6 sector day with 25 minute turnrounds on time.

IIRC FlyBE's flight deck monitoring system was bought from BA but is used in a more punitive fashion without the benefit of SESMA reps and BALPA to soften the blow.

Roster stability? You're having a laugh!

Good luck.

Just for info (from an outsider) but I am pretty sure Air UK Leisure pilots were able to keep their seniority when they were taken over by Air 2000 (First Choice) some years ago.

The argument from BALPA was that Leisure didn't go bust - they were bought out - so why should pilots (who had no control over it) have their careers severely affected by it? Wasn't such good news for Air 2000 crews but that was the downside of their management buying a solvent company.

It all sounds very similar.

PS.
Jim French is probably aware of this as he was, in a previous life, employed by Air UK.

When UK liesure was integrated into Air 2000 the seniority lists were merged dependent on the relevant size of the two companies. Practically this meant 4 Air 2000 pilots for every one Liesure pilot. Thus the impact on Air 2000 crews was minimised and it retained relative seniority for everyone. If you where half way up either list you where still half way up the "new" airline list.
No takeover is ever completely amicable but this was as good as it gets !
As for TUPE, we at Air 2 inherited Liesures 20 year pay scale and got ourselves a union!