Ryanair 5/4 Roster & 5% Pay Deal?
 

Persistent rumours in Scandinavia that Ryanair are considering changing their roster from 5/3 (5 on - 3 off) to 5/4, because many Pilots idle 4-6 weeks every year when they hit the 900 hrs. maximum.
Can anyone confirm or deny this ?

Rgds. OY

I heard it was 4on 4 off !

OSCAR YANKEE Ryanair are going to change the roster to 5/4. They claimed yesterday that this is in response to pilot demand. They want pilots to believe that it is to suit the pilots and has nothing to do with their chaotic rostering and leave allocation systems. Few pilot believe that!

Oh.... and there were a few "small" items that made most of the pilots present very uneasy (this is Ryanair after all!!). Things like losing a couple of weeks annual leave and not being guaranteed that the 5/4 would not become 5/3, etc. etc. The bottom line is that if you plan leave based on 5/4 but end up on 5/3 the problem will be Ryanair's, not yours!

Be careful with these people, be VERY careful.

The company wants to introduce 5 on 4 off.Pilots will be left with maximum 14 days annual leave per year.Down from 29 days.It will be mandatory to complete recurrent training and sim training on your days off along with the already completing medicals on days off.The roster will revert to 5 on 3 off every 4 months,thus making it impossible to plan your days off throughout the year.You will not be allowed to combine days off with blocks of annual leave(i.e. 3 days off followed by 5 annual leave days will find you returning to work on what would have been your next 3 days off,again throwing your roster out of synch.)5 on 4 off will allow longer flying days.Which you will have to fly(up to nine hours)longer days.Which you will need to do,because for the privilege of 5 on 4 off,they are reducing the sector/duty pay by approx. 15%.
The pilots do not need 5 on 4 off,the company needs it to fool pilots outside to join believing that they are going on 5 on 4 off and by the time they have joined and found out the truth,it is too late.The company will circumvent the minimum legal leave requirements by calling some of your supposed 4 days off,annual leave days,again these can be changed at the drop of a hat from annual leave days to working days should it suit the company.
Should you return from a period of illness,the company has the right to change your roster to 5 on 2 off for a period they determine is sufficient to return you to "PEAK PRODUCTIVITY".


THIS COMPANY ACTIVELY DISCRIMINATES AGAINST PILOTS AND THE CEO IS A VIRULENT HATER OF PILOTS.

I Would advise anyone considering working for ryanair to source the document petaining to information for pilots considering joining ryanair.You will be awestruck by how this management treats it staff worse than ****.

In an era when ryanair attempts to further develop their "MINIMUM COST PILOT PRODUCTION LINE",the market elsewhere is buoyant and this year will see a significant increase in pilot resignations from this company.

Yip, that is the story aloue but you forgot that simulator training will take place on "days off" - and other delights. Turns out that the wonderful 5 & 4 is just another Ryanair trap. (Not to mention the carefully disguised pay decrease that has been identified).

At least more and more FR pilots are catching on to how the system of exploitation works!

Well, there was precious little notice of a 'Town Hall Meeting' at Stn on the 3rd March. As a result I did not manage to make it there. I won't be going in for about 3 weeks - one guess only as to why - so will not empty my pidgeon hole; assuming there is anything in it.

I thought the 'ERC' were due to present the 'opinions' - from the pilot meetings at Stn, a week earlier on 24th Feb - in due course.

That's longhand for 'negotiate' with Ryanair about the new agreement.

So what happened? A question not rant.

Did the duo just say "This is it", or was it their first 'low' pitch in the negotiaton process? (Say it's true)
What is all this about losing 15 days leave and a 15% reduction in sector pay? Was there a handout of some sort? Were the ERC people on the stage with the duo, or even informed of the meeting?
When is 5/4 starting and when will we be able to apply for Leave, given that the crewdock leave application system does not work? (Still, if we are only going to get 14 days a year then it doesn't much matter).

Ryanride. Like you, I heard 4/4 was coming, but from where? It has been said by the Camel at least twice on Pprune; perhaps in an effort to indicate that he is not management.
There are surprisingly few posts on this thread, so does anyone know what is actually happening?

Fairfax if you are a member, you might find the debate over on REPA to be a bit more intense than it is here. But these are early days, the next few weeks should see lot's of debate everywhere.

Please guys dont get fooled into joining for 5/4 Roster!!! just read all the strings attached to it! Its worse than what weve got already 5/3 aint to bad you work damn hard but atleast we normally get March completely off as already done 900hrs ( Some guys in STN had already done about 850hrs by Jan) and then theres 14 days annual leave a YEAR!!!!!!!:mad: plus sim on days off etc etc!!!! Just read "Ryanair - A Guide for Prospective Pilot Employees" and see what a crap company it is to work for!!!!!

What chicanery is being planned to circumvent the statutory legal minimum of 20 days off per year?

CamelhAir I think you are referring to 20 days Leave, rather than Days Off.

The Answer: many of the "4 days off" will be shown as other things. For example enough will be shown as "Leave" to bring it up to the legal mimimum 20 days. Simulator training and checking will take place on "Days Off" as well.

As most people have rapidly worked out, this proposal (i) destroys certainty and stability in the roster, (ii) is significantly less valuable to pilots than it is to Ryanair, (iii) is not guaranteed, (iv) can become 5/3 and even 5/2 when it suits FR.

It is a clever rip off and DOB has made it clear that he wants it and will get it. As most people in Ryanair whinge but do nothing, I think we are in trouble with this. Don't forget that out there are people willing to pay for a type-rating, work for no pay and who don't care about Leave. They may be fools, but they are there.

We are certainly in big trouble . But they are in trouble as well . I can only guess how many people will leave this year , increasing training backlog even more that it is now .

Haruki I don't think they care. Until they face an actual rebellion, when they will make some small changes to persuade the pilots to split, they will keep at it. Training backlogs do not matter when people are not paid if they are not checked out. You can fill the gaps with Contractors. The benefits to them are worth fighting for. We don't even try to fight!

dewly Yes , definitely so . The list of what they don't care about is very long and it's becoming even longer .
What can we do in this situation ? I honestly do not know . Leaving company for better seems to be obvious but it doesn't suit everyone .:O

Delwy, I did indeed mean leave and I suspect your answer is the correct one. Another job for the Labour court is "leave" days are forced on us I think. Question is, how many will stand and fight?

CamelhAir I don't think so - as in I think this deal will not apply to Dublin. Even if it is, I think the Dublin pilots will be able to stop it. Only an opinion, but unlike the others the Dublin pilots have unity and an established legal position. We could have the interesting outcome that Dublin pilots will end up better placed than all the others, even before the Labour Court hearings. We'll see!

Just a couple of questions, guys.

At the moment we get 20 annual leave days a year plus eight bank holidays. This, obviously = 28 days. Does the new allocation of 14 days include the bank holidays thereby giving us, literally, only six annual leave days? Or is it 14 days plus the eight bank holidays?

What's the story with the 15% reduction in sector pay, is this definite & if so what's the new formula being used to calculate it?

Where is the reasoning in all this? The company (any company for that matter) wishes to operate its program at the least cost, ie efficiency.

Efficiency is work out over work in, or putting it in context from the company's viewpoint, hours flown over pilot's pay. Well, for the moment at least those two items are a 'given'; we are going to do 900 hrs for sure at what ever we get paid.
So what else is there to consider? The answer, I suggest is - availability.

The company would prefer we were available to fly 365 days a year. Clearly that is a fantasy, but if that were the case then 900/365 = 2.47 hours a day. We don't operate like that. We do on average, I reckon, days of about 5 hours or so; sometimes alot longer and occasionally a little shorter.

5/4 is a 9 day pattern. 365/9 = 40.55 patterns a year. If you take away 3 patterns (not enough by any way you work it out) for Leave that leaves 37.55 patterns. 37.55 x 5 = 187 days available for work. 900/187 = 4.81 hours each flying/work day.

You begin to see where DOB is coming from. He gets the flexibility of 187 days availability to extract the 900 hours. We get to be exhausted and fatigued. Does he care?

Lets try 4 On, 4 Off (4/4), an 8 day pattern. 365/8 = 45.62 patterns.
Take away 7 patterns for 28 days Leave = 38.62 patterns a year.
38.62 x 4 = 154.5 working days a year. (Thats more like it and absolutely reasonable).
So, 900/154.5 = 5.83 hours per working day.
The flexibilty remains, given the number of days we do of well over 7 or even 8 or 9 hours. And given that flexibilty, the extra availabilty is simply not required; just as - see above - 365 days availabilty is superfluous.

Getting back (at last) to the original point:- where is the reasoning? Is it simply an exercise in ramming home who is in control? Why - is there any doubt? Perhaps it's an example of unnecessary malevolence. Why?

I hope I am not lecturing anyone, and I am certainly not an apologist for the company. I do feel that, despite we know what this company can be like, we must argue our case and make them listen to us. It is usually always too early to shout insults, much as we would like to. If they don't listen to reason then make sure everyone knows it.

Fairfax Reasoning is obvious . We are about to lose 14 A/L days - 840 pounds per each pilot . On top of that with 5 on 4 off roster we will see more and more 8.55 , 6.55 , 4.55 days (they will say that flexibilty has been lost for our benefit) .

Haruki
I was under the impression that we were allowed only 14 days Leave to be taken in the normal (unhappily administered) fashion. The remainder were, or are, to be allocated as some of our 4 days off; the total number of A/L days to remain the same. The discussion is about how and when we get them. If that is true (repeat 'If') then assuming we keep the £60 per day for each A/L then we won't be losing £840.

The fact is I simply don't know what the situation is, which is the main complaint. Correct me if I am wrong and take no offence.

Just a quick question:

The contract I signed for states that I'm entitled to "20 working days paid holiday per annum (which shall accrue at the rate of 1.66 days per month)."

If this is all gonna change, do we have to sign a new contract or can they legally change it at own will????

Ibanez, No the point is you will still get 20 days leave butyou wont be able to choose when you take them. You will be able to choose when you take 15 of them the rest 5 plus 8 in lieu of bank holidays will be used in the 4 off part of your roster. Also the company can change you every 3 months from 5/4 back to 5/3 so you wont know if the days you have selected for annual leave form a continuous period of time off or not. You will also loose some of the days off to attend the sim/safety days etc. You will no longer have a stable roster that the company trumpets so loudly and it will be pure luck if you manage to organize a holiday that fits with planned leave.

Ryanair negotiates radical five on, four off flightcrew rostering change
 

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DATE:07/03/06
SOURCE:Flight International

Ryanair negotiates radical five on, four off flightcrew rostering change

Carrier holds talks with pilots to change duties to five days flying followed by four off

Ryanair says its pilot to aircraft ratio is as high now as it has ever been and denies widespread industry rumours that its flightcrew recruitment and training has not been able to keep up with fleet growth. Meanwhile, the carrier is in “direct negotiations” with its pilots about the possibility of a radical change to its flightcrew rostering pattern to which the reaction has so far been positive, says chief pilot Capt Ray Conway.


The airline’s head of air and ground operations David O’Brien claims that the airline is recruiting and training pilots at a rate of 300 to 400 a year to meet a fleet expansion of between 30 and 40 aircraft every 12 months. Last year, says Conway, the airline took on 300 new pilots, created 150 new commands and 40 new training positions. At present the airline has “more than the nominal nine pilots per aircraft”, says O’Brien.
Ryanair’s fleet currently consists of around 100 Boeing 737-800s, with a further 140 on backlog. For about two more years the airline will continue to recruit some direct-entry captains to meet the command requirements it cannot fill through internal promotion, says O’Brien, but after that time the airline’s cadetship and training scheme will have eliminated that need and all captains will be promoted from within. He insists, however, that there is no shortage of quality pilot applicants with full commercial licences.
Now Ryanair is engaged in “negotiations” with its pilots about a proposal to change from its existing roster system – five days flying followed by three days off – to a five-on/four-off ratio. Conway says the airline’s simple operating formula should mean that its pilots could continue to achieve close to 900h annually, but duty hours would be spread more evenly over the 12-month period.
Late last week the airline was continuing the roster negotiations with pilots from the employee representative committee based at the carrier’s largest single base, London Stansted. There would, says deputy chief executive Howard Millar, need to be some quid pro quo from the flightcrew before the company could agree to formalise a 5:4 ratio, but he would not be specific on this until all the pilots have had time to react to the proposals. Many pilots who apply to join Ryanair cite its 5:3 work/time-off ratio as being one of the factors in their choice, so 5:4 would be an even greater incentive, Conway suggests.

New Proposal has just appeared on the Crewdock . :ok:

I cannot think why anyone would oppose a change from 5 on 3 off which is the most eficient way to roster most categories of airline staff including pilots to a 5 on 4 off, which is clearly more desirable socially. Unless, of course it is associated with a change in the planned flight schedules. Perhaps it is associated with a change in the mix of earlies/lates. Perhaps they are planning even earlier departures and even later arrivals back at base. If that is so the extra day off might be an illusion. But if Ryanair could get a better ownweship to flight cost ratio in that way it would be yet another cost reduction for them. I think this issue has a long way to run.

averytdeaconharry .... such innocence. And with many of the relevant issues outlined in the preceeding post. Not a lot to be said.

averytdeaconharry, How does someone learn to write without first learning to read?

This new "agreement" just pisses me off. Sim on off days. If you are sick you have to work extra to compensate for your abseeintism. etc etc.
Whats next????

Interesting times.

I notice from "Roster" para 24 that:- "If FTL's are reached or come into play, then, in order of priority; annual leave, then training, then time off will be allocated.

Why wouldn't FTL's be reached?
So 'Stop the Rot', my friend, I'm afraid you've missed a bit. When we have reached our 900 hours next January we can have our remaining 17 days of our leave allocated to us when we can't work anyway.
What good fun!

There seems to be a bit of a literary theme at the moment on Pprune.

Howard Millar has gone one step further and started talking Latin, ie (is that latin?) a 'quid pro quo'. I think that means 'something for something', or in management speak - something for nothing.

Chaucer was after the Romans and in the 'Miller's Tale', I believe there is some celebrated quote "Kiss my naked arse!

Hmmm.

:confused:
Ok guys, please to make it clear (even for me): The summary they want to take us away is:

-(Sector)-Pay reduction = 15%

-Cutting 14 leave days

-No more the possibility to combine the remaining A/L-days with the OFFs before and after the A/L-days like, 4OFF + 5A/L + 4OFF , would mean 13 days OFF for 5 A/L ???

Ryanair Pay deal - 5%???
 

Ok so everyone's talking about 5-4 but what about the rest of the deal? Personally I like 5-3, I'm more interested in the other parts of the deal and I'd like to know what guys in other bases think. We need to focus on getting the best deal possible rather than shouting and screaming about 5-4

Pay
Ok 5% this year is great but 1% for the next 4?? Let's insist that the 1% is increased substantially.

Sector Pay
The payment per block hour is fairer than the old system but the numbes look wrong to me. Let's put together the right numbers and get an increase here too.

Share Options
How much can we get out of them here?

Roster
Let's get as many of the strings removed as possible - if we can't do that lets stick with the stable 5-3, it's better than anywhere else at the moment.

Look, if we can't get what we want then we reject it - it's that simple. All this crowing and scuttling from the sidelines gets us nowhere.

Clearly you're not a member of REPA leanmachine as the debate there is a bit further advanced than where you are at. However the "reject it" suggestion you suggest would fit in quite well.

That's not to even join the debate as to whether what FR pilots think will make the slightest bit of difference to what FR is going to implement.

There is no actual increase in pay because you will lose between 5 and 10% of sector pay . And F/O's and SFO's will lose even more .

So that ridiculous offer is totally unacceptable .:ok:

If we stick with the 5/3 it will not be as stable as last year. At last weeks meeting we were told that with the new crewing management in place they will have the resources to crew to the book. ie no wrap around days each end of leave and 5/2 six times per year.
I like the idea of 5/4 but it must be a constant 5/4 and not as variable as proposed. For that I would be prepared to have say 9 days leave allocated in the blocks of 4 but we MUST have the wraparound days so that 5 days leave becomes 13 days off. Otherwise every time you have leave your shift pattern changes.

jazzcat2000
So what? If we stick to 5/3 you won't lose money , won't be doing SIM on your days off and once again will be N/A for a month next year ( even more if you don't get A/L with days off as it used to be) . Sounds stupid I know .
And in the end . It doesn't matter how many people they hire for rostering . It will be the same mess anyway - you know that . :ok:

Lean,just to clarify that 5% in year one and 1% thereafter,is calculated on salary and does not include sector pay(which is being reduced).So it equates to far below the figures quoted.

The old RYANAIR GIVE WITH ONE HAND AND TAKE IT BACK WITH THE OTHER trick.

OK so this is how is going to work:
* No we get 12 days of our leave allocated at companys discretion = before
I could use these days as I wish and for every 6 days of my leave I
actually get 12 days off. TOTAL LOSS 12 DAYS
* Now I go to the sim on my days off = before no f*****g way. TOTAL LOSS 4 TO 6 DAYS
* Now if I go sick when I get back I will work 5 on 3 off or 5 on 2 off to compensate my absence = before no f*****g way. TOTAL LOSS FEW DAYS
* Now because all of these rules my roster patern can change frecuently = before I had a very stable roster. TOTAL LOSS STEADY ROSTER
* Now because we fly 5 on 4 off I will be spreading my 900 hours throughout
the year = before I enjoyed at least 16 days of not available because I have been very high on hours every single month and I will also lose my January, February and March of not flying because I don't have any more hours left = TOTAL LOSS 16 DAYS and JANUARY, FEBRUARY AND MARCH OFF
* Now because all these benefits the company will change my flight pay = before no change. TOTAL LOSS 15% REDUCTION
* Now we won't get pension, medicals, loss of license, food, water, car park = before I did'nt get that either. TOTAL LOSS MY SENSE OF HUMOR
* Now we get s**t share options but for that you will have to stay in this company for the next 5 years = before we did'nt get that but quite frankly who wants to stay here 5 years anyway. TOTAL LOSS 5 YEARS OF MY LIFE
I am starting to see signs of desperation because the truth is that the current 5 on 3 off roster that we have at the moment it just simply doesn't work. We all get so high on hours every month that they have to give us lots of not available days. By the time we reach January we all don't have hours left so they have to wet lease just about every airline in Europe to fly for us and if they don't change something I wonder where are they going to find enough captains to fly their new and shiny 45 B737-800 that are coming next year.
Just say no and say yes to 4 on 4 off, medicals, loss of license, pension, etc. Finally the market is changeing and is time to get what we lost.

Haruki

The point I was trying to make is E.W. said if we stay the same they now have a dedicated rostering team in Dublin who will ensured that roster is per previous agreement with 5/2 six times a year and leave before or after days off but not both. This did not happen previously when EMA did the roster so it is even more important now that we get a good robust deal thrashed out. :)

jazzcat2000

I see what you mean . What can I say ? I know a lot of people who could not get any A/L for about a year because EMA rostering just did not reply to applications .

I hear ya Jedy and totally agree!:ok:

not interested in proposed pay deal
 

hi everyone, I for one am not interested in the new deal, I would like the new 5 on 4 off but i just cannot see it happening or being maintained, I am happy enough with 5 on 3 off. The sector pay is poor and as a second officer I feel its very unfair, can anyone answer if its 15 pounds under 4 hours and 17 pounds over 4 hours, is there an average taken if you do six hours and if you were on half sector pay for six months on this deal you could be making £725.00 basic plus 600 ponuds half sector on average. It seems a bit degrading and some of my fellow professionals feel the same. Any positive feedback would be grateful:{