Ryanair 5/4 Roster & 5% Pay Deal?
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Ryanair 5/4 Roster & 5% Pay Deal?
Persistent rumours in Scandinavia that Ryanair are considering changing their roster from 5/3 (5 on - 3 off) to 5/4, because many Pilots idle 4-6 weeks every year when they hit the 900 hrs. maximum.
Can anyone confirm or deny this ?
Rgds. OY
Can anyone confirm or deny this ?
Rgds. OY
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OSCAR YANKEE Ryanair are going to change the roster to 5/4. They claimed yesterday that this is in response to pilot demand. They want pilots to believe that it is to suit the pilots and has nothing to do with their chaotic rostering and leave allocation systems. Few pilot believe that!
Oh.... and there were a few "small" items that made most of the pilots present very uneasy (this is Ryanair after all!!). Things like losing a couple of weeks annual leave and not being guaranteed that the 5/4 would not become 5/3, etc. etc. The bottom line is that if you plan leave based on 5/4 but end up on 5/3 the problem will be Ryanair's, not yours!
Be careful with these people, be VERY careful.
Oh.... and there were a few "small" items that made most of the pilots present very uneasy (this is Ryanair after all!!). Things like losing a couple of weeks annual leave and not being guaranteed that the 5/4 would not become 5/3, etc. etc. The bottom line is that if you plan leave based on 5/4 but end up on 5/3 the problem will be Ryanair's, not yours!
Be careful with these people, be VERY careful.
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The company wants to introduce 5 on 4 off.Pilots will be left with maximum 14 days annual leave per year.Down from 29 days.It will be mandatory to complete recurrent training and sim training on your days off along with the already completing medicals on days off.The roster will revert to 5 on 3 off every 4 months,thus making it impossible to plan your days off throughout the year.You will not be allowed to combine days off with blocks of annual leave(i.e. 3 days off followed by 5 annual leave days will find you returning to work on what would have been your next 3 days off,again throwing your roster out of synch.)5 on 4 off will allow longer flying days.Which you will have to fly(up to nine hours)longer days.Which you will need to do,because for the privilege of 5 on 4 off,they are reducing the sector/duty pay by approx. 15%.
The pilots do not need 5 on 4 off,the company needs it to fool pilots outside to join believing that they are going on 5 on 4 off and by the time they have joined and found out the truth,it is too late.The company will circumvent the minimum legal leave requirements by calling some of your supposed 4 days off,annual leave days,again these can be changed at the drop of a hat from annual leave days to working days should it suit the company.
Should you return from a period of illness,the company has the right to change your roster to 5 on 2 off for a period they determine is sufficient to return you to "PEAK PRODUCTIVITY".
THIS COMPANY ACTIVELY DISCRIMINATES AGAINST PILOTS AND THE CEO IS A VIRULENT HATER OF PILOTS.
I Would advise anyone considering working for ryanair to source the document petaining to information for pilots considering joining ryanair.You will be awestruck by how this management treats it staff worse than ****.
In an era when ryanair attempts to further develop their "MINIMUM COST PILOT PRODUCTION LINE",the market elsewhere is buoyant and this year will see a significant increase in pilot resignations from this company.
The pilots do not need 5 on 4 off,the company needs it to fool pilots outside to join believing that they are going on 5 on 4 off and by the time they have joined and found out the truth,it is too late.The company will circumvent the minimum legal leave requirements by calling some of your supposed 4 days off,annual leave days,again these can be changed at the drop of a hat from annual leave days to working days should it suit the company.
Should you return from a period of illness,the company has the right to change your roster to 5 on 2 off for a period they determine is sufficient to return you to "PEAK PRODUCTIVITY".
THIS COMPANY ACTIVELY DISCRIMINATES AGAINST PILOTS AND THE CEO IS A VIRULENT HATER OF PILOTS.
I Would advise anyone considering working for ryanair to source the document petaining to information for pilots considering joining ryanair.You will be awestruck by how this management treats it staff worse than ****.
In an era when ryanair attempts to further develop their "MINIMUM COST PILOT PRODUCTION LINE",the market elsewhere is buoyant and this year will see a significant increase in pilot resignations from this company.
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Yip, that is the story aloue but you forgot that simulator training will take place on "days off" - and other delights. Turns out that the wonderful 5 & 4 is just another Ryanair trap. (Not to mention the carefully disguised pay decrease that has been identified).
At least more and more FR pilots are catching on to how the system of exploitation works!
At least more and more FR pilots are catching on to how the system of exploitation works!
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Well, there was precious little notice of a 'Town Hall Meeting' at Stn on the 3rd March. As a result I did not manage to make it there. I won't be going in for about 3 weeks - one guess only as to why - so will not empty my pidgeon hole; assuming there is anything in it.
I thought the 'ERC' were due to present the 'opinions' - from the pilot meetings at Stn, a week earlier on 24th Feb - in due course.
That's longhand for 'negotiate' with Ryanair about the new agreement.
So what happened? A question not rant.
Did the duo just say "This is it", or was it their first 'low' pitch in the negotiaton process? (Say it's true)
What is all this about losing 15 days leave and a 15% reduction in sector pay? Was there a handout of some sort? Were the ERC people on the stage with the duo, or even informed of the meeting?
When is 5/4 starting and when will we be able to apply for Leave, given that the crewdock leave application system does not work? (Still, if we are only going to get 14 days a year then it doesn't much matter).
Ryanride. Like you, I heard 4/4 was coming, but from where? It has been said by the Camel at least twice on Pprune; perhaps in an effort to indicate that he is not management.
There are surprisingly few posts on this thread, so does anyone know what is actually happening?
I thought the 'ERC' were due to present the 'opinions' - from the pilot meetings at Stn, a week earlier on 24th Feb - in due course.
That's longhand for 'negotiate' with Ryanair about the new agreement.
So what happened? A question not rant.
Did the duo just say "This is it", or was it their first 'low' pitch in the negotiaton process? (Say it's true)
What is all this about losing 15 days leave and a 15% reduction in sector pay? Was there a handout of some sort? Were the ERC people on the stage with the duo, or even informed of the meeting?
When is 5/4 starting and when will we be able to apply for Leave, given that the crewdock leave application system does not work? (Still, if we are only going to get 14 days a year then it doesn't much matter).
Ryanride. Like you, I heard 4/4 was coming, but from where? It has been said by the Camel at least twice on Pprune; perhaps in an effort to indicate that he is not management.
There are surprisingly few posts on this thread, so does anyone know what is actually happening?
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Fairfax if you are a member, you might find the debate over on REPA to be a bit more intense than it is here. But these are early days, the next few weeks should see lot's of debate everywhere.
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Please guys dont get fooled into joining for 5/4 Roster!!! just read all the strings attached to it! Its worse than what weve got already 5/3 aint to bad you work damn hard but atleast we normally get March completely off as already done 900hrs ( Some guys in STN had already done about 850hrs by Jan) and then theres 14 days annual leave a YEAR!!!!!!!
plus sim on days off etc etc!!!! Just read "Ryanair - A Guide for Prospective Pilot Employees" and see what a crap company it is to work for!!!!!
plus sim on days off etc etc!!!! Just read "Ryanair - A Guide for Prospective Pilot Employees" and see what a crap company it is to work for!!!!!
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CamelhAir I think you are referring to 20 days Leave, rather than Days Off.
The Answer: many of the "4 days off" will be shown as other things. For example enough will be shown as "Leave" to bring it up to the legal mimimum 20 days. Simulator training and checking will take place on "Days Off" as well.
As most people have rapidly worked out, this proposal (i) destroys certainty and stability in the roster, (ii) is significantly less valuable to pilots than it is to Ryanair, (iii) is not guaranteed, (iv) can become 5/3 and even 5/2 when it suits FR.
It is a clever rip off and DOB has made it clear that he wants it and will get it. As most people in Ryanair whinge but do nothing, I think we are in trouble with this. Don't forget that out there are people willing to pay for a type-rating, work for no pay and who don't care about Leave. They may be fools, but they are there.
The Answer: many of the "4 days off" will be shown as other things. For example enough will be shown as "Leave" to bring it up to the legal mimimum 20 days. Simulator training and checking will take place on "Days Off" as well.
As most people have rapidly worked out, this proposal (i) destroys certainty and stability in the roster, (ii) is significantly less valuable to pilots than it is to Ryanair, (iii) is not guaranteed, (iv) can become 5/3 and even 5/2 when it suits FR.
It is a clever rip off and DOB has made it clear that he wants it and will get it. As most people in Ryanair whinge but do nothing, I think we are in trouble with this. Don't forget that out there are people willing to pay for a type-rating, work for no pay and who don't care about Leave. They may be fools, but they are there.
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Haruki I don't think they care. Until they face an actual rebellion, when they will make some small changes to persuade the pilots to split, they will keep at it. Training backlogs do not matter when people are not paid if they are not checked out. You can fill the gaps with Contractors. The benefits to them are worth fighting for. We don't even try to fight!
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dewly Yes , definitely so . The list of what they don't care about is very long and it's becoming even longer .
What can we do in this situation ? I honestly do not know . Leaving company for better seems to be obvious but it doesn't suit everyone .
What can we do in this situation ? I honestly do not know . Leaving company for better seems to be obvious but it doesn't suit everyone .
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Delwy, I did indeed mean leave and I suspect your answer is the correct one. Another job for the Labour court is "leave" days are forced on us I think. Question is, how many will stand and fight?
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CamelhAir I don't think so - as in I think this deal will not apply to Dublin. Even if it is, I think the Dublin pilots will be able to stop it. Only an opinion, but unlike the others the Dublin pilots have unity and an established legal position. We could have the interesting outcome that Dublin pilots will end up better placed than all the others, even before the Labour Court hearings. We'll see!
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Just a couple of questions, guys.
At the moment we get 20 annual leave days a year plus eight bank holidays. This, obviously = 28 days. Does the new allocation of 14 days include the bank holidays thereby giving us, literally, only six annual leave days? Or is it 14 days plus the eight bank holidays?
What's the story with the 15% reduction in sector pay, is this definite & if so what's the new formula being used to calculate it?
At the moment we get 20 annual leave days a year plus eight bank holidays. This, obviously = 28 days. Does the new allocation of 14 days include the bank holidays thereby giving us, literally, only six annual leave days? Or is it 14 days plus the eight bank holidays?
What's the story with the 15% reduction in sector pay, is this definite & if so what's the new formula being used to calculate it?
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Where is the reasoning in all this? The company (any company for that matter) wishes to operate its program at the least cost, ie efficiency.
Efficiency is work out over work in, or putting it in context from the company's viewpoint, hours flown over pilot's pay. Well, for the moment at least those two items are a 'given'; we are going to do 900 hrs for sure at what ever we get paid.
So what else is there to consider? The answer, I suggest is - availability.
The company would prefer we were available to fly 365 days a year. Clearly that is a fantasy, but if that were the case then 900/365 = 2.47 hours a day. We don't operate like that. We do on average, I reckon, days of about 5 hours or so; sometimes alot longer and occasionally a little shorter.
5/4 is a 9 day pattern. 365/9 = 40.55 patterns a year. If you take away 3 patterns (not enough by any way you work it out) for Leave that leaves 37.55 patterns. 37.55 x 5 = 187 days available for work. 900/187 = 4.81 hours each flying/work day.
You begin to see where DOB is coming from. He gets the flexibility of 187 days availability to extract the 900 hours. We get to be exhausted and fatigued. Does he care?
Lets try 4 On, 4 Off (4/4), an 8 day pattern. 365/8 = 45.62 patterns.
Take away 7 patterns for 28 days Leave = 38.62 patterns a year.
38.62 x 4 = 154.5 working days a year. (Thats more like it and absolutely reasonable).
So, 900/154.5 = 5.83 hours per working day.
The flexibilty remains, given the number of days we do of well over 7 or even 8 or 9 hours. And given that flexibilty, the extra availabilty is simply not required; just as - see above - 365 days availabilty is superfluous.
Getting back (at last) to the original point:- where is the reasoning? Is it simply an exercise in ramming home who is in control? Why - is there any doubt? Perhaps it's an example of unnecessary malevolence. Why?
I hope I am not lecturing anyone, and I am certainly not an apologist for the company. I do feel that, despite we know what this company can be like, we must argue our case and make them listen to us. It is usually always too early to shout insults, much as we would like to. If they don't listen to reason then make sure everyone knows it.
Efficiency is work out over work in, or putting it in context from the company's viewpoint, hours flown over pilot's pay. Well, for the moment at least those two items are a 'given'; we are going to do 900 hrs for sure at what ever we get paid.
So what else is there to consider? The answer, I suggest is - availability.
The company would prefer we were available to fly 365 days a year. Clearly that is a fantasy, but if that were the case then 900/365 = 2.47 hours a day. We don't operate like that. We do on average, I reckon, days of about 5 hours or so; sometimes alot longer and occasionally a little shorter.
5/4 is a 9 day pattern. 365/9 = 40.55 patterns a year. If you take away 3 patterns (not enough by any way you work it out) for Leave that leaves 37.55 patterns. 37.55 x 5 = 187 days available for work. 900/187 = 4.81 hours each flying/work day.
You begin to see where DOB is coming from. He gets the flexibility of 187 days availability to extract the 900 hours. We get to be exhausted and fatigued. Does he care?
Lets try 4 On, 4 Off (4/4), an 8 day pattern. 365/8 = 45.62 patterns.
Take away 7 patterns for 28 days Leave = 38.62 patterns a year.
38.62 x 4 = 154.5 working days a year. (Thats more like it and absolutely reasonable).
So, 900/154.5 = 5.83 hours per working day.
The flexibilty remains, given the number of days we do of well over 7 or even 8 or 9 hours. And given that flexibilty, the extra availabilty is simply not required; just as - see above - 365 days availabilty is superfluous.
Getting back (at last) to the original point:- where is the reasoning? Is it simply an exercise in ramming home who is in control? Why - is there any doubt? Perhaps it's an example of unnecessary malevolence. Why?
I hope I am not lecturing anyone, and I am certainly not an apologist for the company. I do feel that, despite we know what this company can be like, we must argue our case and make them listen to us. It is usually always too early to shout insults, much as we would like to. If they don't listen to reason then make sure everyone knows it.
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Fairfax Reasoning is obvious . We are about to lose 14 A/L days - 840 pounds per each pilot . On top of that with 5 on 4 off roster we will see more and more 8.55 , 6.55 , 4.55 days (they will say that flexibilty has been lost for our benefit) .
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Haruki
I was under the impression that we were allowed only 14 days Leave to be taken in the normal (unhappily administered) fashion. The remainder were, or are, to be allocated as some of our 4 days off; the total number of A/L days to remain the same. The discussion is about how and when we get them. If that is true (repeat 'If') then assuming we keep the £60 per day for each A/L then we won't be losing £840.
The fact is I simply don't know what the situation is, which is the main complaint. Correct me if I am wrong and take no offence.
I was under the impression that we were allowed only 14 days Leave to be taken in the normal (unhappily administered) fashion. The remainder were, or are, to be allocated as some of our 4 days off; the total number of A/L days to remain the same. The discussion is about how and when we get them. If that is true (repeat 'If') then assuming we keep the £60 per day for each A/L then we won't be losing £840.
The fact is I simply don't know what the situation is, which is the main complaint. Correct me if I am wrong and take no offence.
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Just a quick question:
The contract I signed for states that I'm entitled to "20 working days paid holiday per annum (which shall accrue at the rate of 1.66 days per month)."
If this is all gonna change, do we have to sign a new contract or can they legally change it at own will????
The contract I signed for states that I'm entitled to "20 working days paid holiday per annum (which shall accrue at the rate of 1.66 days per month)."
If this is all gonna change, do we have to sign a new contract or can they legally change it at own will????
