Latest Orange Hair-brained scheme
 

Just heard that the latest Orange hair-brained scheme involves ALL Captains being checked for, and rostered when required to fly in, the Right Hand Seat, being paid P2 duty pay as and when this need arises...any truth?

Our company's standard policy is that ALL captains are right hand seat checked, and capable of flying right hand seat (PNF only) when rostered.

Money and expenses are as normal.

Some of the U.S. outfits I've flown for consider the captains to be FO qualified but it is a bit of a stretch. In any case, if they are used as copilots they get extra pay, not less pay in most ALPA contracts.

Nothing mentioned about Fo rates (sector pay) because they cant do it. It will be at full rate or not at all.

The really daft bit is having to be PNF ! Boring day for one and rather tiring day for the other. All for the same money.

Real low cost philosophy paying Captains to do FO job.

Why not just swap seats every couple of sectors?

The really exciting bit is having to do your PC in the RHS!

Of course, by Captains agreeing or being forced into doing this masks the real problem: FO's are leaving quickly and the Company cannot find enough of them to crew the roster sufficiently. It really is pitiful that every time this airline decides to go "minimum crew" to save money, it ends up costing far more! After nearly 10 years of this, you would think they would learn!!!!

Sadly, Captains operating in the RHS has been normal in most of the UK charter airlines for many years.

It is becoming more common in UK airlines by the year as the CAA are too weak to stop the process. easyJet are not being original in their actions only copying what the others are doing.

It is a totally unsafe practice which should never be allowed as the Captains are not line trained or checked in the seat. They can be called to operate on standby having not been in the seat for over a year or two. The only requirement is that they do the mandatory engine failure scenario in the sim every six months...very useful as they are not allowed to fly from the RHS when they are there...unless it's a Cat3 approach when they get to twiddle the autopilot from the wrong side.

When you consider that the CAA have been allowing this for years it is a shamefull concession to commercial pressure as our airline is now, like most, using RHS Captains to make up for the loss of FO's to carriers that don't stoop to such low levels of desparate crewing.

Is one being over-simplistic when one says, if the "pressures" of flying for EZY are so bad, LEAVE and go elsewhere? There's plenty of demand for houred Little Boeing/Minibus drivers at the moment...:confused:

One suspects a few months at RYR would soon have you crying for your Orange job back...

There is NO TRUTH whatsoever in the reduced pay rumour. P2 duty pay is nonsense!

The PNF bit is, I believe, a CAA restriction and not EZY's.

Not a high enough profile here for your comments?

Safety and CRM

This has ALWAYS been a procedure at baby!
The pay is unaffected.
We do swap half way through the day.

Alberts Growbag - has got a very important point nailed here!!!
I think it's appaling that I could be expected to do a CATIII from the right hand seat.
I think the operation is unsafe. I haven't sat in the right seat for over 18 months, but could be today!

CAA - You are to BLAME when the next accident occurs!

First of all, just so as the 'enthusiasts' don't keep clouding the thread, could we use the correct definitions here. Every two crew flight has to have a designated COMMANDER (CMDR). Usually that is the highest ranking pilot, the CAPTAIN (CPT). The FIRST OFFICER or SENIOR FIRST OFFICER (FO or SFO) is usually second in command (although some cabin crew seniors would love to dispute this :rolleyes: ) The CAPTAIN usually sits in the left hand seat (LHS) but doesn't have to. If it's a TRAINING CAPTAIN (not a captain under training) they may sit in the right hand seat (RHS) with an FO who may be upgrading to CPT for example.

In theory, you don't need a CPT on a flight. You could have two FO's as long as one was designated COMMANDER but not likely. So to clarify for the 'enthusiasts', you need two pilots, usually a CPT and an FO with the CPT being in COMMAND. What often confuses some people who are not in the business is that you also have other designations for the roles the pilots have. EITHER pilot will usually take turns it handling the aircraft and is designated 'pilot flying' or 'handling pilot' (PF or HP). The other pilot will assume the 'pilot not flying' or non-handling pilot' (PNF or NHP) role which covers other things like the radio, paperwork etc.

So, the COMMANDER (the or a) CAPTAIN usually sits in the LHS and could be PF or PNF. The SECOND IN COMMAND (an FO or another CAPTAIN) usually sits in the RHS and will either be PF or PNF. In the UK for example, the COMMANDER logs all flight time whether PF or PNF as P1. The SECOND IN COMMAND logs PF time as P1u/s (under supervision) and PNF time as P2. Clear as mud eh?

In the scenarios quoted above, some or all LINE CAPTAINS are checked out in the simulator every six months to operate from the right hand seat (RHS). They have to demonstrate that they can fly a circuit with an engine failure at take-off (EFATO), an approach, go-around and another approach to a landing... successfully. To suggest that these CPT's that occasionally fly in the RHS are dangerous is probably an exaggeration but they certainly aren't proficient. Throw in any number of complications and the situation could turn nastier than most would like. It is just lining up a few more slices of the swiss cheese.

It is of course a sign of poor management if a company is paying SECOND IN COMMANDS a CAPTAINS salary. It is much more profitable if the company employed enough FIRST OFFICERS, usually at around two thirds to a half the salary of CAPTAINS. Most companies employ FIRST OFFICERS with the idea that they are future captains in training. Of course, if they forget to remind themselves of this and keep employing direct entry captains then the first officers tend to get fed up and look for employment elsewhere.

Having two CAPTAINS on the flight deck for normal, non-training, line flying is not ideal and can be the cause of CRM issues. Also, the CAPTAINS acting as SECOND IN COMMAND have to log their PNF time as P2 (assuming it really bothers them at this stage) and any PF time as P1u/s, assuming that the company allows CAPTAINS in the RHS to actually be PF! :bored:

So, in conclusion, it's not illegal to have two LINE CAPTAINS as crew. It's not even unsafe unless things start to go wrong. It just means that less slices of the swiss cheese need to be lined up for an accident to happen. If it only happens occasionally then it's no big deal but if it starts to happen regularly then it is a sign of bad management, poor beancounting and the airlines Flight Ops Inspector should be keeping a close eye on things.

Maybe a sign of the times that there really is a shortage of qualified and experienced pilots and the worm can turn on the beancounters. :=

arewenearlythereyet?

IT IS UNSAFE as things can and do go wrong!

Bit overdramatic, Mental - things can and do go wrong with the normal Capt/FO operation sometimes too - is that fundamentally unsafe? Generally, no - because the error traps are in place to stop things that 'go wrong' turning into a catastrophe...and they should still be in place when two captains fly together as well.

It is a good opportunity for those of us to practise flying (or should that be 'non-flying'?) from the RHS - we rarely get much feedback on our operation as Capts apart from the yearly line-check & sim checks, and any professional Captain out there should:

a) welcome the opportunity to learn from one's colleagues and to remind oneself of the duties of an FO,
b) be able to cope with the unusual CRM situation, by recognising the factors involved and compensating for them accordingly.

Anyone who feels they can't do both of the above when required to by their employer, maybe ought to take a REAL objective look at their own approach to CRM and flight deck management, rather than just paying the required lip service to it on their recurrent day with Dr D.

I have operated with other Captains within our operation, and whilst it is frustrating to witness the failing of our crewing system, it really is no big deal.

Brief the other chap accordlingly, take nothing for granted, and enjoy the chance to hear some gossip about other FOs for a change, rather than other Captains!

After all, all those of us in the LHS were once in the RHS, and could be again in the future - the skills of a good co-pilot should be maintained by all of us, regardless of which seat we sit in in our current employment.

I agree with Klinks response, someone yet again has got the wrong figures...will they get punished ofcourse not...
No one mind helping the company out but this like everything else in EZY will get used and abused a little like the 5/2/5/4 and the 6/3 for that matter...

Another point well made is that the Captains who fly in the RHS only do the bare modicum of training; this is true even for Training Captains who are so qualified. We do not have time in the simulator for coping with a rapid decompression from the other seat, even though this is more likely than an engine failure!! If there is a lesson to be learnt from the Helios accident, all crew members should be able to cope in whichever seat they are designated because you never know when your other crew member may not be functioning. This is a CRM recipe for disaster and yet again a classic case of the arse-about management that we live with on a daily basis.

Come on Colonel..........say what you mean!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

This was done to death a few months ago in another thread. At our company any Captain who sits in the RH seat must have done a basic sim. check in that seat (Take-off, eng. fail, SE approach, SE G/A, SE landing) to be qualified. We are only allowed to PNF unless a trainer and I don't find it a problem. It certainly feels a little strange at first but the fact that you are (presumeably) an experienced and capable pilot in the first place (LH seat airline jet etc. etc.) means that you should be able cope easily. It's a sign of poor management, means you get dicked about more and I would just as soon log P1 time instead of P2 but it is not a safety issue in my opinion.

As said before, if you don't feel you can safely be PNF and P2 in the right hand seat of an aircraft on which you are checked out be a Captain you need to have a think about it, your not being asked to do much in comparison to what you normally do.

I have to disagree with those who are advocating Captains operating in the RHS as PNF. The fact that other airlines do it does not make it right. One of my previous airlines did it too but they allowed the RHS captain to operate from that seat. The disappointing thing is that easyJet has always prided itself on their 'safety' culture and this is clearly a less safe option than having 2 fully trained and current pilots. I have no problem with operating in the RHS as long as I am trained to the same standard as my First Officer normally is.

We all know how rusty we can feel after two weeks leave. It seems totally self-evident to me that if you do one single-engine landing in the sim from the RHS every 6 months then you simply cannot be of the same standard as someone who does it every day. The prime reason for having 2 pilots is to pick up on each other's errors and for one of them to carry on if the other croaks. If you are faced with the pressure of a dead colleague and you have not landed from the seat you are in for years - dare I say that regardless of your past experience you are well on the way to making some serious errors. There are 3 concerns for any airline - safety, safety and safety! Puting partially trained and uncurrent pilots in the aircraft is simply not acceptable and should be stamped on at the earliest opportunity.

I can't believe I have just read this in relation to captains authorised in the RHS operating as PNF.

How precious can you be?

For goodness sake it's only a matter of feet away. The perspective is not that different. The switches are all in the same place and it is the same aircraft.

Next you'll be saying that it's too different to be safe to drive an english car on the continent of europe, or even, god forbid, a hire car with the gearstick on the other side.

Max Angle, beardy, Gary Lager

Are you happy then? As if we should just accept anything and everything the stupid management throw at us?
Are you defending, accepting, welcoming this unsafe situation?

Take day 6 after a week of bad weather, slots delays, and the rest. Are any of you seriously suggesting that you are SAFE in the RHS? Having spent 5 minutes in the sim in the RHS I kept on hitting my arm on the side continuously and that was just trying to find the throttles.
Given an emergency, factor for age and tiredness you've got to be kidding.

I'm with Colonel Klink!

Beardy, that is not exactly true. They are not in the same place relative to you. I have sat behind trg capts who have made big mistakes on the overhead panel and they were relatively current in that seat. On the airbus there are certain emergencies that would be a little too interesting in the case of a rhs line capt. One that comes to mind is the avionics smoke checklist.

Yep, happy.

Happy with my ability to operate to the standard of a good FO and PNF in the RHS.

I am intrigued as to what those opponents of this policy perceive the main problem to be - I was under the impression most were concerned about the CRM aspect of 2 Captains flying together, with attendant "Is he going to do something? Should I say something?" problems that come with a shallow command gradient across the flight deck.

Is finding the relevant switches etc. a serious problem from the other seat? I'm sure most of us always take the time to locate the correct switch/pb before selection during normal operation which ever seat we are operating from - and rarely have I ever needed to select something so fast that I couldn't spare the extra second or two it takes to do it from the other side.

As for 'unsafe' operation: puh-lease. When all us Captains sat in the LHS for the first time (probably in the sim on our command courses), did we crash the first few approaches of takeoffs we flew? I doubt it.

Guys who have a problem with this policy seem to fall into three main categories here:

1) those who have spent so long in the LHS they are geniuinely underconfident of their ability to do the FO's job properly again - in which case their vast experience should go some way to assist them in locating the SOPs in the Flying Manual before a duty, and in applying good CRM principles during the duty day.

2) those who see it as an affront to their superiority over their RHS/FO colleagues. A spell in the RHS is probably long overdue for these tw@ts.

3) those who are new to type so command who have temporarily limited capacity compared to their previous position - I suggest they explain this to their fellow four-striped colleague and ask them to sit in the RHS for the day, allowing the 'junior' chap the opportunity to operate from an environment which is more familiar to them.

As I'm not a line trainer I can't act as PF from the RHS during normal operations - we only do the EFATO check in the sim to cater for the worst case scenario of PF/Capt incapacitation on TO.

Not at all, but equally I will not just reject everything the 'stupid' management throw at 'us' without looking at the situation objectively.

skyclamp

Given 5/2/5/4 you won't be flying on day 6, you'll be doing SEPs or non FDP stuff.

I have to say I'm no fan of this proposal but, overall, I think folks are making far too much of it.

4 sector day - do 2 in each seat by mutual agreement and go home - not exactly difficult, dangerous or over-fatiguing.

Talks of potential CRM problems are insulting to professionals.

Flaps1,
Just out of interest has anyone looked into the legalities of swopping seats during a duty day. Our ops manual states quite clearly that the company will nominate a commander for a series of flights. By sharing the flying even by mutual agreement you may well be digging yourself a hole in the case of an incident.

Just out of interest - are the Capt's flying RHS going to practice low-vis ops from the RHS?

If cross-seat flying will be a regular occurrence this winter that could be a significant safety issue.

I think the supporters of this proposal (which for easyJet is nothing more than a cock-eyed "get out of jail free" card for the mismanagement of pilot recruitment) should remember that in undercrewed bases this will not be a one-off occurrence.

Additionally, comparing it to swapping seats on promotion is pointless. Promotion involves a high level of motivation to adapt to another perspective, combined with a sense of permanence in the move. The practice outlined here is demotivating, repeatable but not permenent, and all because the company thought it could save a couple of bob by delaying 737 F/O recruitment.

I am sincerely sorry for my former colleagues in EZY that in addition to the chronic roster disruption they now have to be dicked around whichever seat they will be sitting in as well. As for the poor bloke(ss) in the LHS who has to do 4-6 sectors as PF for upwards of 11 hours - I can't believe that anyone is sticking up for this stupid, stupid idea.

Gary, fair enough can't argue with anything you have said there. However, don't you think there should be some compensation for doing something that is outside the usual remit of a line captain? People have mentioned clauses in contracts etc, but from what i can see it is not covered. To do the job requires additional training, it assists the company to increase/maintain revenue (not cancelling flights, less F/O's req'd with same number of Captains, increased stby cover etc) so surely there should be an offer put on the table for some remuneration. Even asking before hand rather than a unilateral "this is what is happening!" declaration would have been nice. Maybe the next bright idea should require people who want to be TRE/TRI to pay the company for the pleasure of doing the course, after all it is an extra qualification that they can take away with them and it costs time and money for them to do the course. CTC could set it up, around £20k should be about right!

Beardy

I assume you are not an airline pilot. If you were you would know that it does 'feel' very different when you change seats. The truth is that some people find it easier than others but most pilots would acknowledge that the act of flying from a different seat is initially quite hard work. It uses up a lot of capacity when normally the act of flying is a 'motor skill' - ie learnt behaviour you don't have to think about. I have no worries about the CRM aspects of this and will actively enjoy flying with guys who I do not normally get to work with.

The simple answer would be to employ the right number of FOs!

There's no problem with changing commanders at half-time just as long as a commander is clearly nominated for a flight, or series of flights, and that commander signs the Tech Log.

I thnk LVO trg/chk training should be given as part of any RHS trg/check.

Sub-charters cost shed-loads and that's my pay rise so, for a limited period, I can go along with this scheme to get over an apparently temp issue............. but my limited support will not be open-ended!

Let´s face it: An incident/accident mostly starts with a minor item developing to (maybe) a desaster.
A minor item could be a "RHS Line captain", not comfortable and not that proficient and more or less forced to this step.
Looking at the "high safety standards" of EZY ( Own declaration) there should be no need even to take any risk that is obviously avoidable! I know lot´s of experienced jet pilots waiting since month for their assessment!
It is just a matter of mangement planning and not a question of how good some of us are in changing seats and solve still different tasks!
Why support management misplanning in taking maybe a little higher risk of operation (flight safety)???
Some of the very "strong" pilots see it maybe even as some kind of challenge!? I am to old for being happy to display my abilities in the Left and Right seat just to solve management errors!

BTW, Lufthansa tried the same game some years ago, to force their Training Captains fly as RHS/FO duties on normal passenger flights. As far as I remember, this was even decided (against LH) at court.

FlapsOne

I often do 6 days, I don't work for easyJet!



bloggs2

I don't think it's a pay issue as much as safety.


Lager


We were given enough training to feel confident enough! I was certainly. Not in this scenario though! I don't feel professional enough sitting in the RHS, after 10 years in the left! I can't do a professional enough job, or a safe enough one. I am not interested in proving myself yet again, to anyone, for any reason whatsoever! I don't have the willpower to satisfy anyone, particularly management. You must be so very different and brilliant. I wish I was you!!!! NOT.

Norman Stanley Fletcher, You Gimboid, Kraut

Quite agree!

there have been rumours in another low cost airline that SFOs may be asked to fly LEFT hand seat on odd days to "increase flexibility for the crewing department"

Hasn't happened yet, but watch out!

I wonder what happened to my last post on this subject? It was somewhere near the bottom of page 2!!
Dirty Mach...............Just where did you dream up that load of twaddle? Absolute rubbish mate. SFO is still an FO not a Captain.

Rubik101, I think Dirty Mach was bsaying that tongue in cheek. And was your post this one in a very similar thread? http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...00#post2045000

@ Rubik 101

You are easily swapping seats with no simulator and such rubbish??
You even are not able to remember where you gave your statement!:D

I can't believe the amount of drivel being typed on this thread if you are an experienced and proffesional pilot you should be able to operate from either seat particularlly if you have any significant experience on type. If your are already a captain you should be well aware of what the First officers duties are if you don't call your chief pilot and resign as your to thick to be a captain!

For gods sake guys were not talking rocket science here, only a 2 foot move besides during training we often operate from either seat with no major problems.

I suspect that the only danger is that some ego's may get damaged but as far as I'm aware that is not a life threatening condition!

Any non pilot reading this thread must think we're arse***ls. I see absolutly no saftey issue with this at all after all the millitary do this a lot I have personally operated many large aircraft from either seat and the Airbus A319 is by far the easiest type to change seats on!

Please stop lowering our proffesion with such nonsence!

unablereqnavperf,

You talk total bollocks. Firstly you cant even spell professional and secondly you have no idea what moving seat involves. I work for a respected company and we give our new captains approx 10 hours sim training and 14 sectors before they are checked out. Prior to this they will have done years proving they are up to the job. Why waste the training if it is an easy move across the cockpit. You have now idea how different each side of the flight deck is. Jumping seats is not as easy as you pretend to know!!

Suggest you finish your school spelling lessons and grow up.

@unablereqnavperf


Don´t only think of "aviation" querries. If you do not accept other pilots opinion about safety, how about economics??
A good paid captain in the right seat for considerable times, just makes no economical sence!
Management is always complaining about high costs for personal affairs!
They bond you for a certain amount of training received, because training is expensive!
Now they train additionally captains, to operate the normally lower paid right seat! You know probably how low the profit margin is! This decision will not improve the profit margin.

A well manged recruiting and a normal operation with Captains and FO´s will assure ECONOMICAL and SAFE airline operation!
If YOU like to absorb mismanagement by your own pilot skills -fine with me.
Than they should ask for voluntary "RHS NON FLYING PILOTS"! Than everybody will get his chance!

Next time they are asking the FO´s to act as "cabin crew", because it is already the same aircraft we all are flying in! :eek:

It's called "Right Seat Dependancy" training at one FAR 121 airline where I used to work. Besides the usual sim scenairos stated in some of the posts above, we were required to perform 3 actual TOL's in the A/C from the RHS with a check airman in the LHS every 12 months.

Normally, the Captain in the RHS was the PNF, with seat swapping the norm with the Commander.

In my experience, most Captains assigned to fly a trip in the RHS, whether senior to the Commander or not, welcomed the opportunity to relax rather than "supervise" a newly minted F/O.

A real Captain usually doesn't have the ego thinking flying the RHS is beneath him...and besides, seat swapping means moving all of your sh!t from one side of the cockpit to the other...not really worth the bother IMHO....