Immelmann

Having heared from friends, that an european airline will implement (or has already) normal passengers flight with two line captains.
The right seat Captain shall be a "pilot non flying" job only. Flights should be limited per assigned period.
The company emphazises, that this is a step ahead in operation.
In Germany a major carrier tried to do the same, at least with their checkpilots.
This was turned down (except of cause training flights) by the CC and the union. (Vereinigung Cockpit).

So, I am, never been in the right seat of my present type, still thinking about the acceptance of this in relation to CRM and Flight safety?
What is your opinion?

alexban

I've heard of a small low coast operator doing this somewhere in E-europe.I guess the reason it's a shortage of F/O in that particular area,and the availability of retired captains,age 55 or bellow.
Regarding CRM and safety,my opinion,I wouldn't allow this type of operation on a normal operation.
Although it may seem safer to have two experienced captains on the flight deck,actually it can be only one PIC.
Even CRM says that all decisions must be taken after analyzing all infos and opinions from people involved,but the captain has the final decision call.What if there are two captains?....
And I guess it' not viable economically.The captain salary it's higher than a F/O's,and having 2 capt on the flight deck doesn't mean you'll have less pilots on the fleet.You'll have the same required number of pilots,only more capt to pay.

The Greaser

I've heard that a very large european low cost airline wants to start doing this.

alexban

And when they fly RHS they receive FO payment? I really doubt that.
If so,what kind of payment plan they'll have? And what will be the reason for doing this?
Some low cost carriers I know of, have very low experienced FO's,even only 200 hrs TT, very poor paid.They took the job in order to accumulate experience.
Instead of hiring those guys,why hire experienced capt,with a much bigger salary?
Maybe hiring not so experienced cpt,with maybe 2000 hrs on Cesna,and less then 300 hrs on airliners..hmm....If this is the case,I doubt they'll fly safe for a long time..
And then ,maybe more pax will change their understanding of what low cost really is, for most of the LCC:low training also,besides, eventually low maintainance?
then,the low cost tickets will sound less apealing,i guess.

FearlessFreep

Having two Captains flying the aircraft (other than check airmen) is usually the result of a shortage of FO's. This phenomena usually is the result of pilot attrition - the younger pilots go off to better employers while the more senior Captains stay at their present employer.

As far as how this relates to CRM, it should not be an issue. Professionalism "should" prevail. No one (in most normal circumstances) has started off a career in multiple crew aircraft as a Captain - at least some small modicum of time has been spent as an FO even at some point in the career. Since this generality for the most part is the prevalent circumstance it should not be too much of a stretch for a Captain to fly as an FO. This presumption would require that the pilots operating as FO mutually accept and tolerate the other Captain's operational "techniques" and variations.

I speak of this from experience as I have had this occur. One leg I flew as Captain and the next as FO. It worked out ok, and both flights were safe operations without the presence of overwhelming strife or disagreement. I would say overall it was one of the easier set of flights that I have done.

On a side note we both received Captain's pay for both flights.

Sven Sixtoo

Not sure if this is directly relevant .

I work in a military SAR operation.

Some of the pilots are qualified to command for SAR Ops, some are not. All are qualified to command for authorised training.

So sometimes the cockpit crew consists of 2 ops qualified pilots, sometimes only one pilot is ops qualified (more than half of us are ops qualified).

Personally I have not had a problem sitting LHS (in a helicopter) and carrying out the copilots job with another Op-qual captain commanding. Nor do I have a problem acting as co-pilot for one of my more junior colleagues on training - if we get tasked for ops while training I make it quite clear that command transfers to me until the job is done. Its just a matter of having confidence in each other and being clear about the respective roles in each situation.

I hope none of my colleagues have had a problem when the situations have been reversed.

As to the financing of it, thats a separate issue from the CRM / Safety one. Presumably the companies doing this find its cheaper to pay two pilots the command rate even if one of them is doing an FO job than it is to meet the trg etc overheads for another FO.

Sven

mutt

Me operate all of our VVIP aircraft with 2 captains, there is a designated PIC. Doesnt seem to present a problem, but there again, cost isnt an issue.

Mutt

cavortingcheetah

Went for an interview once for a job advertised in FI as Captain on a sophisticated piece of kit somewhere in darkest Africa.
Offered the job at the interview. I was type rated and current at the time. More or less accepted the post and made enquiry about company policy relating to flying with local F/Os, ie: political sensitivity and so on. At that point I was told that all pilots employed were Captains but that only some pilots were Commanders.
Gosh, what is in a word? A glorified F/O?
The nitty, of course, was that company insurance required such a high experience level that any F/O who was still an F/O with that degree of experience would be slightly suspect.
That said, I personally have no trouble flying with another Captain although I do feel that one person must, at the end of the day, be the designated P1. This can usually, although not always, be sorted out, either between the two pilots concerned (before boarding the aircraft!) or on the basis of company seniority or perhaps rather more arbitrarily by rostering.

dawn raider

no no no no no. whilst there should be no problem in theory CRM wise there is always the fear that things will go just that little bit too far and nobody will say anything because ' the other guy is a capt and will know what he's doing'...

if you need more RHS guys then use training capts. that's what they're trained to do.

I hear easyjet are going to cross qualify all new commanders. I really think this is a bad idea.

cavortingcheetah

If Easy are going to do that it is presumably a rostering to enable them, at least in part, to cover both seats with one standby.
I would wistfully look to the CAA to come p with an arguement as to the unsuitability of this sort of roster arrangement being implemented as a part of airline policy.

Aslak

No problem at all. We do it all the time. Of course, all of our commanders are also fully trained and checked for the right seat operations.
This is only when we are short of F/Os for some reason and of course you do receive your normal captain salary.

fireflybob

Legally no reason why not so long as pilot is qualified in the rh seat.

However, not that ideal from a CRM point of view, especially if the experience levels are similar - trans cockpit command authority gradient may not be optimum!

However, if you really want to make things even worse put two training captains together - I speak as one who has been in that role!

hector

Many years ago (1970's) two Training Captains managed to write a Viscount off in marginal weather conditions. Apparently one tried to land while the other tried to go-around. Neither were successful!

boeingdream787

Hey hey guys.This is ENTIRELY a safety issue and moreso a legal one.Firstly......You can ONLY have ONE PIC...!! Now here is the problem.When u roster 2 line captains the biggest safety issue is if the fella on the left gets incapacitated!! THATS when the problem starts.The RHS captain is NOT RHS qualified to land the airplane......more importantly he may not be comfortable or even safe in doing so from the RHS ( say low vis conditions,strong cross winds and other adverse wx conditions etc etc....not even MENTIONING an emergency..!! ).This is the safety part.Then comes the legal part.You CANNOT(in most countries)allow and justify a line captain to occupy the RHS seat for line ops,except in DIRE company requirments......wherein too the captains(both)or captain(senior one),are called in for a 1 hour Sim ride Pre-flight to enable his RHS qualification......!!! If both attend the sim session then they fly "one way each"(50% legs done by either capt occupying the LHS......also HE is the PIC for those legs),wheras if only one attends the sim booking then only HE shall occupy the RHS seat and do the functions of a F/O throughout. Needless to say that in ALL the above scenarios both captains get full capt pay....!!! It is mandatory for at least one captain in a two captain scenario to be RHS qual.Any other situation makes the cockpit unsafe and MOST importantly.....illegal.Opens a chasm of argument opportunities for the insurance companies and their lawyers in a ( god forbid ),post accident analysis. I for one have refused such flights on a number of occasions with(touch wood)no repercussions whatsoever...!!Tailwinds to all.

beardy

2 Captains together is no problem, our company use it to achieve greater flexibility. To us it is not unusual, nor a problem.

The only proviso is that the captain in RHS has been checked in the RHS in the sim, this includes single engine go-around and single engine landing. Normally LHS hogs the flying and is designated as PIC. The RHS captain gets captain's pay and allowances.

It is not exciting nor dangerous, so no exclamation marks.

rubik101

787 What a lot of fuss over nothing at all! Many airlines have done it for years. You simply swap seats and act as an FO for a leg, then swap back again the next leg. What need for the sim etc. required to accomplish that tricky little job?
I sometimes feel that anything out of the ordinary in this bussiness just HAS to be questioned, ridiculed, rubbished and objected to simply because it's there! Sad really.

arewenearlythereyet?

First of all, just so as the 'enthusiasts' don't keep clouding the thread, could we use the correct definitions here. Every two crew flight has to have a designated COMMANDER (CMDR). Usually that is the highest ranking pilot, the CAPTAIN (CPT). The FIRST OFFICER or SENIOR FIRST OFFICER (FO or SFO) is usually second in command (although some cabin crew seniors would love to dispute this ) The CAPTAIN usually sits in the left hand seat (LHS) but doesn't have to. If it's a TRAINING CAPTAIN (not a captain under training) they may sit in the right hand seat (RHS) with an FO who may be upgrading to CPT for example.

In theory, you don't need a CPT on a flight. You could have two FO's as long as one was designated COMMANDER but not likely. So to clarify for the 'enthusiasts', you need two pilots, usually a CPT and an FO with the CPT being in COMMAND. What often confuses some people who are not in the business is that you also have other designations for the roles the pilots have. EITHER pilot will usually take turns it handling the aircraft and is designated 'pilot flying' or 'handling pilot' (PF or HP). The other pilot will assume the 'pilot not flying' or non-handling pilot' (PNF or NHP) role which covers other things like the radio, paperwork etc.

So, the COMMANDER (the or a) CAPTAIN usually sits in the LHS and could be PF or PNF. The SECOND IN COMMAND (an FO or another CAPTAIN) usually sits in the RHS and will either be PF or PNF. In the UK for example, the COMMANDER logs all flight time whether PF or PNF as P1. The SECOND IN COMMAND logs PF time as P1u/s (under supervision) and PNF time as P2. Clear as mud eh?

In the scenarios quoted above, some or all LINE CAPTAINS are checked out in the simulator every six months to operate from the right hand seat (RHS). They have to demonstrate that they can fly a circuit with an engine failure at take-off (EFATO), an approach, go-around and another approach to a landing... successfully. To suggest that these CPT's that occasionally fly in the RHS are dangerous is probably an exaggeration but they certainly aren't proficient. Throw in any number of complications and the situation could turn nastier than most would like. It is just lining up a few more slices of the swiss cheese.

It is of course a sign of poor management if a company is paying SECOND IN COMMANDS a CAPTAINS salary. It is much more profitable if the company employed enough FIRST OFFICERS, usually at around two thirds to a half the salary of CAPTAINS. Most companies employ FIRST OFFICERS with the idea that they are future captains in training. Of course, if they forget to remind themselves of this and keep employing direct entry captains then the first officers tend to get fed up and look for employment elsewhere.

Having two CAPTAINS on the flight deck for normal, non-training, line flying is not ideal and can be the cause of CRM issues. Also, the CAPTAINS acting as SECOND IN COMMAND have to log their PNF time as P2 (assuming it really bothers them at this stage) and any PF time as P1u/s, assuming that the company allows CAPTAINS in the RHS to actually be PF!

So, in conclusion, it's not illegal to have two LINE CAPTAINS as crew. It's not even unsafe unless things start to go wrong. It just means that less slices of the swiss cheese need to be lined up for an accident to happen. If it only happens occasionally then it's no big deal but if it starts to happen regularly then it is a sign of bad management, poor beancounting and the airlines Flight Ops Inspector should be keeping a close eye on things.

Maybe a sign of the times that there really is a shortage of qualified and experienced pilots and the worm can turn on the beancounters.

chuks

To be a First Officer, well, you are a First Officer to the Captain. So just how do you propose to operate a flight with two FO's? Designate one 'Commander' and he becomes the Captain, right?

Where I work, Nigeria, we too have lots of 'Captains'
who wear four stripes but occupy the right-hand seat,
since they have only been right-hand seat checked. It's just another one of those things, I guess. Local sensibilities and all that.

I cannot believe that any serious professional should be so unaware of where his fundament is parked and which role he is expected to play on a given flight that he's going to have trouble being a second-in-command. Are we really such dullards? Some of us, perhaps!

fireflybob

In (UK) law it is the OPERATOR who specifies who the aircraft commander is. There can only be ONE commander on the a/c! So "Captains" can make up a crew but only ONE is the commander. Pilots must be qualified and current for the seat they occupy.

It has been my experience that sometimes Cabin Crew get a bit confused when two Captains fly together, especially when one is a Training Captain when the other Captain is the Commander. I used to inform them that whoever's name was in the "Commander" column at crew sign in was, by definition, THE commander!

In practice I dont think this is always as simple as some posters are making out. Let's say the operator nominates a "Captain" as the Commander on a flight and the "Second in Command" is a Training Captain. This, in my opinion, puts the TC in an invidious position if the Commander makes a decision affecting flight safety which he does not agree with. Crew members are legally obliged to obey lawful commands that the commander makes and indeed if they interfere might be liable!

My comments here are wrt to pukka Airline Ops. Perhaps when you are flying corporate for a small organisation where pilots know each other well the situation might be different.

Captain Stable

Anyone who states that "there is no problem" doesn't understand the nature of the situation. It does need to be carefully considered, and not simply from the CRM point of view.

1. If in the company concerned, the right-seater is regularly and frequently in that seat, then there is less of a problem. But simply taking someone from the left-seat, putting them in the right, doing a quick check on them and letting them go is not enough. I am double-seat qualified in a few aircraft and I REALLY have to think about where the hands are going to operate this, that or the other.
2. The worst FO's I ever flew with were Training Captains. The extent of the duties of an FO are different in every company, and I have met several TC's who couldn't even get the weather off the computer.
3. CRM - not an insuperable problem if everyone on the flightdeck operates professionally and with regard to good CRM, but we know that isn't always the case. Some Captains become overbearing in the right seat, particularly if they are senior to the Captain in the left. Others shut up to too great an extent, not wanting to be seen as nit-picking.

In one of my previous companies we had a small spate of runway incursions - four in six weeks. On examination, in every case there were two captains on the flight deck.

Unless in the company concerned it is a frequent occurrence and people are truly double-seated and used to operate as often in the right as the left seats, two captains together is the most dangerous combination of crew possible.