Latest Orange Hair-brained scheme
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Join Date: Apr 2004
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Latest Orange Hair-brained scheme
Just heard that the latest Orange hair-brained scheme involves ALL Captains being checked for, and rostered when required to fly in, the Right Hand Seat, being paid P2 duty pay as and when this need arises...any truth?
Join Date: Jun 2001
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Some of the U.S. outfits I've flown for consider the captains to be FO qualified but it is a bit of a stretch. In any case, if they are used as copilots they get extra pay, not less pay in most ALPA contracts.
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Nothing mentioned about Fo rates (sector pay) because they cant do it. It will be at full rate or not at all.
The really daft bit is having to be PNF ! Boring day for one and rather tiring day for the other. All for the same money.
Real low cost philosophy paying Captains to do FO job.
The really daft bit is having to be PNF ! Boring day for one and rather tiring day for the other. All for the same money.
Real low cost philosophy paying Captains to do FO job.
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Of course, by Captains agreeing or being forced into doing this masks the real problem: FO's are leaving quickly and the Company cannot find enough of them to crew the roster sufficiently. It really is pitiful that every time this airline decides to go "minimum crew" to save money, it ends up costing far more! After nearly 10 years of this, you would think they would learn!!!!
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Sadly, Captains operating in the RHS has been normal in most of the UK charter airlines for many years.
It is becoming more common in UK airlines by the year as the CAA are too weak to stop the process. easyJet are not being original in their actions only copying what the others are doing.
It is a totally unsafe practice which should never be allowed as the Captains are not line trained or checked in the seat. They can be called to operate on standby having not been in the seat for over a year or two. The only requirement is that they do the mandatory engine failure scenario in the sim every six months...very useful as they are not allowed to fly from the RHS when they are there...unless it's a Cat3 approach when they get to twiddle the autopilot from the wrong side.
When you consider that the CAA have been allowing this for years it is a shamefull concession to commercial pressure as our airline is now, like most, using RHS Captains to make up for the loss of FO's to carriers that don't stoop to such low levels of desparate crewing.
It is becoming more common in UK airlines by the year as the CAA are too weak to stop the process. easyJet are not being original in their actions only copying what the others are doing.
It is a totally unsafe practice which should never be allowed as the Captains are not line trained or checked in the seat. They can be called to operate on standby having not been in the seat for over a year or two. The only requirement is that they do the mandatory engine failure scenario in the sim every six months...very useful as they are not allowed to fly from the RHS when they are there...unless it's a Cat3 approach when they get to twiddle the autopilot from the wrong side.
When you consider that the CAA have been allowing this for years it is a shamefull concession to commercial pressure as our airline is now, like most, using RHS Captains to make up for the loss of FO's to carriers that don't stoop to such low levels of desparate crewing.
With MY reputation?
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Is one being over-simplistic when one says, if the "pressures" of flying for EZY are so bad, LEAVE and go elsewhere? There's plenty of demand for houred Little Boeing/Minibus drivers at the moment...
One suspects a few months at RYR would soon have you crying for your Orange job back...
One suspects a few months at RYR would soon have you crying for your Orange job back...
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This has ALWAYS been a procedure at baby!
The pay is unaffected.
We do swap half way through the day.
Alberts Growbag - has got a very important point nailed here!!!
I think it's appaling that I could be expected to do a CATIII from the right hand seat.
I think the operation is unsafe. I haven't sat in the right seat for over 18 months, but could be today!
CAA - You are to BLAME when the next accident occurs!
The pay is unaffected.
We do swap half way through the day.
Alberts Growbag - has got a very important point nailed here!!!
I think it's appaling that I could be expected to do a CATIII from the right hand seat.
I think the operation is unsafe. I haven't sat in the right seat for over 18 months, but could be today!
CAA - You are to BLAME when the next accident occurs!
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First of all, just so as the 'enthusiasts' don't keep clouding the thread, could we use the correct definitions here. Every two crew flight has to have a designated COMMANDER (CMDR). Usually that is the highest ranking pilot, the CAPTAIN (CPT). The FIRST OFFICER or SENIOR FIRST OFFICER (FO or SFO) is usually second in command (although some cabin crew seniors would love to dispute this 
) The CAPTAIN usually sits in the left hand seat (LHS) but doesn't have to. If it's a TRAINING CAPTAIN (not a captain under training) they may sit in the right hand seat (RHS) with an FO who may be upgrading to CPT for example.
In theory, you don't need a CPT on a flight. You could have two FO's as long as one was designated COMMANDER but not likely. So to clarify for the 'enthusiasts', you need two pilots, usually a CPT and an FO with the CPT being in COMMAND. What often confuses some people who are not in the business is that you also have other designations for the roles the pilots have. EITHER pilot will usually take turns it handling the aircraft and is designated 'pilot flying' or 'handling pilot' (PF or HP). The other pilot will assume the 'pilot not flying' or non-handling pilot' (PNF or NHP) role which covers other things like the radio, paperwork etc.
So, the COMMANDER (the or a) CAPTAIN usually sits in the LHS and could be PF or PNF. The SECOND IN COMMAND (an FO or another CAPTAIN) usually sits in the RHS and will either be PF or PNF. In the UK for example, the COMMANDER logs all flight time whether PF or PNF as P1. The SECOND IN COMMAND logs PF time as P1u/s (under supervision) and PNF time as P2. Clear as mud eh?
In the scenarios quoted above, some or all LINE CAPTAINS are checked out in the simulator every six months to operate from the right hand seat (RHS). They have to demonstrate that they can fly a circuit with an engine failure at take-off (EFATO), an approach, go-around and another approach to a landing... successfully. To suggest that these CPT's that occasionally fly in the RHS are dangerous is probably an exaggeration but they certainly aren't proficient. Throw in any number of complications and the situation could turn nastier than most would like. It is just lining up a few more slices of the swiss cheese.
It is of course a sign of poor management if a company is paying SECOND IN COMMANDS a CAPTAINS salary. It is much more profitable if the company employed enough FIRST OFFICERS, usually at around two thirds to a half the salary of CAPTAINS. Most companies employ FIRST OFFICERS with the idea that they are future captains in training. Of course, if they forget to remind themselves of this and keep employing direct entry captains then the first officers tend to get fed up and look for employment elsewhere.
Having two CAPTAINS on the flight deck for normal, non-training, line flying is not ideal and can be the cause of CRM issues. Also, the CAPTAINS acting as SECOND IN COMMAND have to log their PNF time as P2 (assuming it really bothers them at this stage) and any PF time as P1u/s, assuming that the company allows CAPTAINS in the RHS to actually be PF!
So, in conclusion, it's not illegal to have two LINE CAPTAINS as crew. It's not even unsafe unless things start to go wrong. It just means that less slices of the swiss cheese need to be lined up for an accident to happen. If it only happens occasionally then it's no big deal but if it starts to happen regularly then it is a sign of bad management, poor beancounting and the airlines Flight Ops Inspector should be keeping a close eye on things.
Maybe a sign of the times that there really is a shortage of qualified and experienced pilots and the worm can turn on the beancounters.
) The CAPTAIN usually sits in the left hand seat (LHS) but doesn't have to. If it's a TRAINING CAPTAIN (not a captain under training) they may sit in the right hand seat (RHS) with an FO who may be upgrading to CPT for example.In theory, you don't need a CPT on a flight. You could have two FO's as long as one was designated COMMANDER but not likely. So to clarify for the 'enthusiasts', you need two pilots, usually a CPT and an FO with the CPT being in COMMAND. What often confuses some people who are not in the business is that you also have other designations for the roles the pilots have. EITHER pilot will usually take turns it handling the aircraft and is designated 'pilot flying' or 'handling pilot' (PF or HP). The other pilot will assume the 'pilot not flying' or non-handling pilot' (PNF or NHP) role which covers other things like the radio, paperwork etc.
So, the COMMANDER (the or a) CAPTAIN usually sits in the LHS and could be PF or PNF. The SECOND IN COMMAND (an FO or another CAPTAIN) usually sits in the RHS and will either be PF or PNF. In the UK for example, the COMMANDER logs all flight time whether PF or PNF as P1. The SECOND IN COMMAND logs PF time as P1u/s (under supervision) and PNF time as P2. Clear as mud eh?
In the scenarios quoted above, some or all LINE CAPTAINS are checked out in the simulator every six months to operate from the right hand seat (RHS). They have to demonstrate that they can fly a circuit with an engine failure at take-off (EFATO), an approach, go-around and another approach to a landing... successfully. To suggest that these CPT's that occasionally fly in the RHS are dangerous is probably an exaggeration but they certainly aren't proficient. Throw in any number of complications and the situation could turn nastier than most would like. It is just lining up a few more slices of the swiss cheese.
It is of course a sign of poor management if a company is paying SECOND IN COMMANDS a CAPTAINS salary. It is much more profitable if the company employed enough FIRST OFFICERS, usually at around two thirds to a half the salary of CAPTAINS. Most companies employ FIRST OFFICERS with the idea that they are future captains in training. Of course, if they forget to remind themselves of this and keep employing direct entry captains then the first officers tend to get fed up and look for employment elsewhere.
Having two CAPTAINS on the flight deck for normal, non-training, line flying is not ideal and can be the cause of CRM issues. Also, the CAPTAINS acting as SECOND IN COMMAND have to log their PNF time as P2 (assuming it really bothers them at this stage) and any PF time as P1u/s, assuming that the company allows CAPTAINS in the RHS to actually be PF!
So, in conclusion, it's not illegal to have two LINE CAPTAINS as crew. It's not even unsafe unless things start to go wrong. It just means that less slices of the swiss cheese need to be lined up for an accident to happen. If it only happens occasionally then it's no big deal but if it starts to happen regularly then it is a sign of bad management, poor beancounting and the airlines Flight Ops Inspector should be keeping a close eye on things.
Maybe a sign of the times that there really is a shortage of qualified and experienced pilots and the worm can turn on the beancounters.
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arewenearlythereyet?
IT IS UNSAFE as things can and do go wrong!
It's not even unsafe unless things start to go wrong. It just means that less slices of the swiss cheese need to be lined up for an accident to happen
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Bit overdramatic, Mental - things can and do go wrong with the normal Capt/FO operation sometimes too - is that fundamentally unsafe? Generally, no - because the error traps are in place to stop things that 'go wrong' turning into a catastrophe...and they should still be in place when two captains fly together as well.
It is a good opportunity for those of us to practise flying (or should that be 'non-flying'?) from the RHS - we rarely get much feedback on our operation as Capts apart from the yearly line-check & sim checks, and any professional Captain out there should:
a) welcome the opportunity to learn from one's colleagues and to remind oneself of the duties of an FO,
b) be able to cope with the unusual CRM situation, by recognising the factors involved and compensating for them accordingly.
Anyone who feels they can't do both of the above when required to by their employer, maybe ought to take a REAL objective look at their own approach to CRM and flight deck management, rather than just paying the required lip service to it on their recurrent day with Dr D.
I have operated with other Captains within our operation, and whilst it is frustrating to witness the failing of our crewing system, it really is no big deal.
Brief the other chap accordlingly, take nothing for granted, and enjoy the chance to hear some gossip about other FOs for a change, rather than other Captains!
After all, all those of us in the LHS were once in the RHS, and could be again in the future - the skills of a good co-pilot should be maintained by all of us, regardless of which seat we sit in in our current employment.
It is a good opportunity for those of us to practise flying (or should that be 'non-flying'?) from the RHS - we rarely get much feedback on our operation as Capts apart from the yearly line-check & sim checks, and any professional Captain out there should:
a) welcome the opportunity to learn from one's colleagues and to remind oneself of the duties of an FO,
b) be able to cope with the unusual CRM situation, by recognising the factors involved and compensating for them accordingly.
Anyone who feels they can't do both of the above when required to by their employer, maybe ought to take a REAL objective look at their own approach to CRM and flight deck management, rather than just paying the required lip service to it on their recurrent day with Dr D.
I have operated with other Captains within our operation, and whilst it is frustrating to witness the failing of our crewing system, it really is no big deal.
Brief the other chap accordlingly, take nothing for granted, and enjoy the chance to hear some gossip about other FOs for a change, rather than other Captains!
After all, all those of us in the LHS were once in the RHS, and could be again in the future - the skills of a good co-pilot should be maintained by all of us, regardless of which seat we sit in in our current employment.
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I agree with Klinks response, someone yet again has got the wrong figures...will they get punished ofcourse not...
No one mind helping the company out but this like everything else in EZY will get used and abused a little like the 5/2/5/4 and the 6/3 for that matter...
No one mind helping the company out but this like everything else in EZY will get used and abused a little like the 5/2/5/4 and the 6/3 for that matter...
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Another point well made is that the Captains who fly in the RHS only do the bare modicum of training; this is true even for Training Captains who are so qualified. We do not have time in the simulator for coping with a rapid decompression from the other seat, even though this is more likely than an engine failure!! If there is a lesson to be learnt from the Helios accident, all crew members should be able to cope in whichever seat they are designated because you never know when your other crew member may not be functioning. This is a CRM recipe for disaster and yet again a classic case of the arse-about management that we live with on a daily basis.
This was done to death a few months ago in another thread. At our company any Captain who sits in the RH seat must have done a basic sim. check in that seat (Take-off, eng. fail, SE approach, SE G/A, SE landing) to be qualified. We are only allowed to PNF unless a trainer and I don't find it a problem. It certainly feels a little strange at first but the fact that you are (presumeably) an experienced and capable pilot in the first place (LH seat airline jet etc. etc.) means that you should be able cope easily. It's a sign of poor management, means you get dicked about more and I would just as soon log P1 time instead of P2 but it is not a safety issue in my opinion.
As said before, if you don't feel you can safely be PNF and P2 in the right hand seat of an aircraft on which you are checked out be a Captain you need to have a think about it, your not being asked to do much in comparison to what you normally do.
As said before, if you don't feel you can safely be PNF and P2 in the right hand seat of an aircraft on which you are checked out be a Captain you need to have a think about it, your not being asked to do much in comparison to what you normally do.
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I have to disagree with those who are advocating Captains operating in the RHS as PNF. The fact that other airlines do it does not make it right. One of my previous airlines did it too but they allowed the RHS captain to operate from that seat. The disappointing thing is that easyJet has always prided itself on their 'safety' culture and this is clearly a less safe option than having 2 fully trained and current pilots. I have no problem with operating in the RHS as long as I am trained to the same standard as my First Officer normally is.
We all know how rusty we can feel after two weeks leave. It seems totally self-evident to me that if you do one single-engine landing in the sim from the RHS every 6 months then you simply cannot be of the same standard as someone who does it every day. The prime reason for having 2 pilots is to pick up on each other's errors and for one of them to carry on if the other croaks. If you are faced with the pressure of a dead colleague and you have not landed from the seat you are in for years - dare I say that regardless of your past experience you are well on the way to making some serious errors. There are 3 concerns for any airline - safety, safety and safety! Puting partially trained and uncurrent pilots in the aircraft is simply not acceptable and should be stamped on at the earliest opportunity.
We all know how rusty we can feel after two weeks leave. It seems totally self-evident to me that if you do one single-engine landing in the sim from the RHS every 6 months then you simply cannot be of the same standard as someone who does it every day. The prime reason for having 2 pilots is to pick up on each other's errors and for one of them to carry on if the other croaks. If you are faced with the pressure of a dead colleague and you have not landed from the seat you are in for years - dare I say that regardless of your past experience you are well on the way to making some serious errors. There are 3 concerns for any airline - safety, safety and safety! Puting partially trained and uncurrent pilots in the aircraft is simply not acceptable and should be stamped on at the earliest opportunity.
