Pay at VS / BA / LH / IB / AF?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: .
Posts: 190
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pay at VS / BA / LH / IB / AF?
Doing some research on world airline pay rates. What are the payscales at:
Virgin
British Airways
Lufthansa
Iberia
Air France
Please provide specific numbers if possible (ie hourly rates, max hours, per diem, etc where applicable).
Min to max or years of service.
cheers
Virgin
British Airways
Lufthansa
Iberia
Air France
Please provide specific numbers if possible (ie hourly rates, max hours, per diem, etc where applicable).
Min to max or years of service.
cheers
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Germany
Posts: 177
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
silent agreement
Hello falcon10:
nothing personal but in our company there is an understanding not to discuss pay rates for cockpit crews in public. A bit different than in US.
You could write to our company and ask. Have a nice day.
nothing personal but in our company there is an understanding not to discuss pay rates for cockpit crews in public. A bit different than in US.
You could write to our company and ask. Have a nice day.
Join Date: May 2000
Location: South East
Posts: 184
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sevenfortyseven,
You obviously do not work for BA because if you did you would have seen the details of our new pay deal. The result of the ballot was announced on the 6th Jan (over 90% in favour).
No, I'm not going to post the figures because:-
a) I'm sure in time they will be available from the usual sources
b) It really is nobody else's business anyway
Suffice to say the vast majority are v. happy (especially if you are a DEP or a relatively new Captain)
You obviously do not work for BA because if you did you would have seen the details of our new pay deal. The result of the ballot was announced on the 6th Jan (over 90% in favour).
No, I'm not going to post the figures because:-
a) I'm sure in time they will be available from the usual sources
b) It really is nobody else's business anyway
Suffice to say the vast majority are v. happy (especially if you are a DEP or a relatively new Captain)
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: .
Posts: 190
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I find it very interesting that when US airline's pilot's contracts become public information, the media and uneducated public is very quick to attack the profession as being highly overpaid.
Yet, many foreign airlines use US airline contracts or pay rates as a model when they negotiate for their own contract. With that in mind, I do not see where my original request is offensive, considering that most of this information probably has been posted previously or is public information via other means. Our profession has been been very good at supporting and respecting our fellow brothers all over the world.
Therefore, why the hostility when such a reasonable question is asked?
And yes, I am an airline pilot who still has a job, but not by much!
cheers,
Yet, many foreign airlines use US airline contracts or pay rates as a model when they negotiate for their own contract. With that in mind, I do not see where my original request is offensive, considering that most of this information probably has been posted previously or is public information via other means. Our profession has been been very good at supporting and respecting our fellow brothers all over the world.
Therefore, why the hostility when such a reasonable question is asked?
And yes, I am an airline pilot who still has a job, but not by much!
cheers,
Last edited by falcon10; 9th Jan 2003 at 22:41.
Join Date: May 2000
Location: South East
Posts: 184
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Falcon10,
No hostility intended in your direction, only at those who read a post on prune and then feel they must jump on the band wagon and perpetuate a rumour that is so far from the truth it almost didn't warrant a response.
Thanks to a tremendous amount of work and effort by the BA company council, this years pay claim at BA also included a complete restructuring of the pay scales. As mentioned above the details have been agreed and voted on by the pilot workforce. Unfortunately, even though the pilots have the details I have yet to see the information posted on any public forum. Sorry, but I do not feel it is my place to post this information until Balpa or the Company circulate the info in a general release.
Good luck and hang on in there!!
No hostility intended in your direction, only at those who read a post on prune and then feel they must jump on the band wagon and perpetuate a rumour that is so far from the truth it almost didn't warrant a response.
Thanks to a tremendous amount of work and effort by the BA company council, this years pay claim at BA also included a complete restructuring of the pay scales. As mentioned above the details have been agreed and voted on by the pilot workforce. Unfortunately, even though the pilots have the details I have yet to see the information posted on any public forum. Sorry, but I do not feel it is my place to post this information until Balpa or the Company circulate the info in a general release.
Good luck and hang on in there!!
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Seoul
Posts: 34
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BA pay deal
Super Stall,
Are you therefore telling us that none of the cabin crew earns more than any of the pilots after this amazing pay deal? Sadly you couldn't.
I don't think any rumours are being perpetuated that are so far from the truth that no response is warranted.
It is fact, a senior Purser or CSD will regularly earn more than the co-pilot.
Yet again a pay deal has been negotiated by pilots, which significantly favours one section of the workforce, whilst giving away concessions, which were important to other sections.
Why didn't BALPA use professional negotiators? Personally that is why I pay my 1% - no so that there can be all this self-congratulatory talk and letters from Lloyd saying didn't the boys do good.
Falcon10 - the BALPA website contains pay information on the UK airlines, you may find it helpful to contact them.
Super stall, you weren't by any chance involved in the pay negotiations were you? If you were then, I would like to thank you for the considerable time and energy that you and your colleagues spent on achieving this deal. However, next time why not let the professionals negotiate, and let us fly planes - each to his own.
Oh, and why didn't BALPA continue the process of consultation until we were happy?
Lucky me, I had a frosty faced purser snarl at me, "you'll be alright now you've got your 20% pay rise - what about us?" - well I say market rates for pilots AND CABIN CREW, how much do the VS crew get? LH? AF?
One slightly p*****d orf Nigel.
Are you therefore telling us that none of the cabin crew earns more than any of the pilots after this amazing pay deal? Sadly you couldn't.
I don't think any rumours are being perpetuated that are so far from the truth that no response is warranted.
It is fact, a senior Purser or CSD will regularly earn more than the co-pilot.
Yet again a pay deal has been negotiated by pilots, which significantly favours one section of the workforce, whilst giving away concessions, which were important to other sections.
Why didn't BALPA use professional negotiators? Personally that is why I pay my 1% - no so that there can be all this self-congratulatory talk and letters from Lloyd saying didn't the boys do good.
Falcon10 - the BALPA website contains pay information on the UK airlines, you may find it helpful to contact them.
Super stall, you weren't by any chance involved in the pay negotiations were you? If you were then, I would like to thank you for the considerable time and energy that you and your colleagues spent on achieving this deal. However, next time why not let the professionals negotiate, and let us fly planes - each to his own.
Oh, and why didn't BALPA continue the process of consultation until we were happy?
Lucky me, I had a frosty faced purser snarl at me, "you'll be alright now you've got your 20% pay rise - what about us?" - well I say market rates for pilots AND CABIN CREW, how much do the VS crew get? LH? AF?
One slightly p*****d orf Nigel.
Join Date: Dec 1997
Location: Suffolk UK
Posts: 4,927
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If it's true that a senior BA CSD still earns more than a BA co-pilot after the pilots' new pay deal, it's almost certain that that same CSD earns more than most captains at VS!
Guest
Posts: n/a
I don't want to discuss the necessity nor the value of a CSD on BA's flights but surely a Senior CSD must have been, by definition, working for BA for anything between 10 to 30 years...
Therefore comparing salaires with a more Junior pilot might not be a full acurate mean to do so.
I agree though that pilots should earn more than Cabin Crew but let's remember that times have changed and the old F/Decks and Crew have been replaced by newer terms which has affected both categories. There is still many people under the old contract in the company so it is no surprise to see some conflict when we try to compare something with what it is no more.
I worked for BA as cabin crew mainline for a short while (less than a year) and my basic salary was £9666 pa (During the year 2000 and no my allowances we not doubling my salary. As a matter of fact I have published a long time ago all my nine months of take home pay in the cabin crew forum).
As far as I am concerned that's a fact I use to judge what cabin crew (BA) take home and if I am all for pilots getting more, rather than taking from others why not fight to improve our conditions and leave others in peace. Looks like it is what has just happened or at least it is my understanding.
All I am saying here is that some perspective is needed, that's all.
Therefore comparing salaires with a more Junior pilot might not be a full acurate mean to do so.
I agree though that pilots should earn more than Cabin Crew but let's remember that times have changed and the old F/Decks and Crew have been replaced by newer terms which has affected both categories. There is still many people under the old contract in the company so it is no surprise to see some conflict when we try to compare something with what it is no more.
I worked for BA as cabin crew mainline for a short while (less than a year) and my basic salary was £9666 pa (During the year 2000 and no my allowances we not doubling my salary. As a matter of fact I have published a long time ago all my nine months of take home pay in the cabin crew forum).
As far as I am concerned that's a fact I use to judge what cabin crew (BA) take home and if I am all for pilots getting more, rather than taking from others why not fight to improve our conditions and leave others in peace. Looks like it is what has just happened or at least it is my understanding.
All I am saying here is that some perspective is needed, that's all.
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Calgary, AB, Canada
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Falcon10, try www.ppjn.com, they seem to have quite a comprehensive list of various airlines & their pay...
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: West Country
Posts: 1,271
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mini mums
Sorry that you are not happy with the new pay rise - but as over 90% of your colleagues voted in favour it cannot be that miserly.
Can we put the old red-herring about BA CSD's on megabucks to bed. The small number of CSD's in question have been with the company for donkeys years and are on old, now discontinued, contracts. If you compare flight crew pay from the same vintage (also now discontinued scales) you will find that the flight crews are on much more than the CSD.
If you want to compare pay, ensure that you are comparing like with like.
Sorry that you are not happy with the new pay rise - but as over 90% of your colleagues voted in favour it cannot be that miserly.
Can we put the old red-herring about BA CSD's on megabucks to bed. The small number of CSD's in question have been with the company for donkeys years and are on old, now discontinued, contracts. If you compare flight crew pay from the same vintage (also now discontinued scales) you will find that the flight crews are on much more than the CSD.
If you want to compare pay, ensure that you are comparing like with like.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Seoul
Posts: 34
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jet II,
Certainly don't want to get into a slanging match with you, but why should we compare like with like? One is cabin crew the other is a pilot. That isn't like with like. Tell me more about the different pay scales at BA, unless I'm seriously mistaken, we're all on the same pay scales - there's no CX A/B/C scale.
I'm not just talking about CSDs earning mega bucks - I don't know which fleet you are on, but from where I sit the majority of pursers take home more than I do. Honestly. Not bar talk, but from the accounts department.
90% might have voted in favour, but that doesn't mean the 90% believe that they got the best deal - and those are definitely two seperate issues. Financially I genuinely believe we should not have asked for more from the company. But scope . . . and status . . . are things that cost little, if anything.
We are all part of the same company, players in the same team, but my gripe centres on why we didn't have paid professional negotiators . . . why one band of pilots have benefitted at the cost of others . . .
We still have the best paid cabin crew (almost) in the world, and no one can pretend that even £40k is a reasonable salary for someone who is onboard primarily for safety and secondly to enhance the customer experience, when the primary providers of safety are locked away at the front, taking home less money.
Market value at VS?
Market value at LH?
Market value at CX?
Sorry folkes, pay them all £15k with London waiting, and the most senoir is CSD/CSM/IFS on the day.
Please don't pretend the pay deal has made 90% of the pilot work force happy.
Jet II - (edited bacaues I thought Jet II was a pilot) - we have not accepted a pay deal "that makes us the best paid pilots in Europe" - what's your problem? Maths? Learn the truth, then contribute to the Profession Pilots RUnour NEtwork. Good night, you are the weakest link.
Mini mums
Certainly don't want to get into a slanging match with you, but why should we compare like with like? One is cabin crew the other is a pilot. That isn't like with like. Tell me more about the different pay scales at BA, unless I'm seriously mistaken, we're all on the same pay scales - there's no CX A/B/C scale.
I'm not just talking about CSDs earning mega bucks - I don't know which fleet you are on, but from where I sit the majority of pursers take home more than I do. Honestly. Not bar talk, but from the accounts department.
90% might have voted in favour, but that doesn't mean the 90% believe that they got the best deal - and those are definitely two seperate issues. Financially I genuinely believe we should not have asked for more from the company. But scope . . . and status . . . are things that cost little, if anything.
We are all part of the same company, players in the same team, but my gripe centres on why we didn't have paid professional negotiators . . . why one band of pilots have benefitted at the cost of others . . .
We still have the best paid cabin crew (almost) in the world, and no one can pretend that even £40k is a reasonable salary for someone who is onboard primarily for safety and secondly to enhance the customer experience, when the primary providers of safety are locked away at the front, taking home less money.
Market value at VS?
Market value at LH?
Market value at CX?
Sorry folkes, pay them all £15k with London waiting, and the most senoir is CSD/CSM/IFS on the day.
Please don't pretend the pay deal has made 90% of the pilot work force happy.
Jet II - (edited bacaues I thought Jet II was a pilot) - we have not accepted a pay deal "that makes us the best paid pilots in Europe" - what's your problem? Maths? Learn the truth, then contribute to the Profession Pilots RUnour NEtwork. Good night, you are the weakest link.
Mini mums
Last edited by Mini mums; 20th Jan 2003 at 22:54.
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: West Country
Posts: 1,271
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mini mums,
You know exactly what I am talking about when I say compare like with like - If I said that Flight crew were overpaid because some of them earn 150K you would say that is an unfair comment as the ones on that sort of money are on old, now discontinued contracts.
As for the pay deal - every pilot at BA I have talked too seem to think that overall its a good deal in the present circumstances. To say that over 90% of crew voted for something that they thought wasn't very good stretches the point.
I do not know your exact circumstances and you obviously have a particular problem with the deal - as you mention scope, I assume you are ex City Flyer?
As to the comment about BA flight crew now "Being the best paid pilots in Europe" - that was a comment by one of your negotiators to a reporter on the local paper.
I say again, I am sorry that you didn't get as much as you wanted, but I fear that you are in a minority.
And please try to keep personal abuse out of a reasonabley civilised thread.
You know exactly what I am talking about when I say compare like with like - If I said that Flight crew were overpaid because some of them earn 150K you would say that is an unfair comment as the ones on that sort of money are on old, now discontinued contracts.
As for the pay deal - every pilot at BA I have talked too seem to think that overall its a good deal in the present circumstances. To say that over 90% of crew voted for something that they thought wasn't very good stretches the point.
I do not know your exact circumstances and you obviously have a particular problem with the deal - as you mention scope, I assume you are ex City Flyer?
As to the comment about BA flight crew now "Being the best paid pilots in Europe" - that was a comment by one of your negotiators to a reporter on the local paper.
I say again, I am sorry that you didn't get as much as you wanted, but I fear that you are in a minority.
And please try to keep personal abuse out of a reasonabley civilised thread.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Seoul
Posts: 34
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Apologies Jet II for getting personal. I’ve just become a little wound up by all this self congratulation over the pay deal – especially from the negotiators themselves.
Perhaps we do now have some of the best paid short-haul Captains in Europe – and no wonder the negotiator was crowing about the fact, if he’s just got his command.
My frustrations come from the fact that some of the workforce have seen considerable benefit from this deal, whilst others have not, but it is sadly those same people who didn’t feel the need to protect our “scope and status” for the future. I’d have happily seen no pay rise (above rpi), but sorted out the can of worms.
Apologies again.
Perhaps we do now have some of the best paid short-haul Captains in Europe – and no wonder the negotiator was crowing about the fact, if he’s just got his command.
My frustrations come from the fact that some of the workforce have seen considerable benefit from this deal, whilst others have not, but it is sadly those same people who didn’t feel the need to protect our “scope and status” for the future. I’d have happily seen no pay rise (above rpi), but sorted out the can of worms.
Apologies again.
